SS needs - why Renteria or Tejada?

[Guest]

SSR, Ronny is indeed out of options.

 

Badnews, I do like Sean Rodriguez but I'm concerned he will have to move to second base.

[d_money]

Which Ronny are you talking about - no disciplined Ronny swinging for the fences when with the Cubs, or AAA Ronny who is focused and doing the little things right? The one I've seen drives me nuts at the plate.

 

The 24 year old who has murdered the ball over 2 half seasons in AAA where he's age appropriate. I don't deny that this is pretty much make or break time for Ronny as a prospect. He'll be 25 next year, and I believe out of options. I wouldn't let him prevent me from trading for a Renteria or Tejada(which my gut tells me the Cubs will do), but if no upgrade is made at SS, and we run out Theriot at SS on opening day instead of Ronny, I'm going to be pissed.

 

Point well taken.

[rawaction]

RF is a bigger hole than SS. The Cubs have been getting middle IF like production for what is supposed to be a big time offensive position. Get a slightly above league avg RF and you can hide the SS in the 8-hole if Soto and Pie/Jones hit like they can/should.

 

In all fairness, they got the 6th best NL OPS out of RF this year. Granted, teams 6-10 were all closely bunched, but the Cubs biggest holes were SS, C and CF. If they can get an impact RF, I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, I know the 2007 stats. I was talking about looking ahead to 2008. I think Jones and/or Pie can outproduce CF from this past season (Pie improvement, Jacque in a FA year starting the season on time, no Pagan) and leave RF as the hole, with no Floyd and Murton probably on the bench.

[badnews]

A lot of the shortstops listed may need a move. Brignac may. Nobody seems sure on Escobar. I've alternately heard Erick Aybar described as "Gold Glove calibur" and "better at 2nd."

 

At least we know Cedeno can play shortstop. His problems there are the range-type problems that would be helped by a move to second. They're more like routine-play type problems.

 

I can't believe the Mariners let themselves get robbed on Choo and especially Cabrera just to get both sides of a bad DH platoon. I can't believe other teams weren't jumping there left and right. And that Rafael Soriano trade, too bad we couldn't rob them of Truinfel as long as they were making such bad decisions.

 

A good idea might be a Theriot/Cedeno platoon. For whatever reason Cedeno hits righties in the majors better than lefties, and Theriot is pretty bad against righties.

[nilodnayr]

I think the Braves' prospects hype system is a scam. I went on record in June saying I didn't think Saltalamacchia was that good, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was another Andy Marte. I've never been any kind of impressed with Lillibridge or Escobar either. Any time the Braves are ready to trade a prospect, it's like San Diego trading a reliever or the Devil Rays a veteran closer - stay away.

 

Let's go even farther beneath the radar for a sleeper - Sean Rodriguez for the Angels.

 

Ronny is a better bet to break out at shortstop than guys who gets more hype - I'd bet on Cedeno over the much ballyhooed Erick Aybar.

 

Lastly, I trust Renteria about as far as I can shotput a planet. Before he went to the Braves he had more mediocre seasons than good ones. It was a cold year early in the year in Chicago, I don't want to have to listen to any moody complaining about how he can't hit anywhere that's not 90 and muggy.

 

Lillibridge is really a Pirates' prospect. He came over in the LaRoche trade. I haven't heard any more "hype" on him now than a year ago. I agree with you though that the reason the Braves are where they are and were where they were is because of talent evaluation. They know who to deal and who to keep.

 

Sean Rodriguez has hit well, but like CR said, I've also heard his glove won't play at SS.

[nilodnayr]

RF is a bigger hole than SS. The Cubs have been getting middle IF like production for what is supposed to be a big time offensive position. Get a slightly above league avg RF and you can hide the SS in the 8-hole if Soto and Pie/Jones hit like they can/should.

 

In all fairness, they got the 6th best NL OPS out of RF this year. Granted, teams 6-10 were all closely bunched, but the Cubs biggest holes were SS, C and CF. If they can get an impact RF, I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, I know the 2007 stats. I was talking about looking ahead to 2008. I think Jones and/or Pie can outproduce CF from this past season (Pie improvement, Jacque in a FA year starting the season on time, no Pagan) and leave RF as the hole, with no Floyd and Murton probably on the bench.

 

Well yeah, of course RF is going to be a hole if you don't have anyone starting there...

[rawaction]

RF is a bigger hole than SS. The Cubs have been getting middle IF like production for what is supposed to be a big time offensive position. Get a slightly above league avg RF and you can hide the SS in the 8-hole if Soto and Pie/Jones hit like they can/should.

 

In all fairness, they got the 6th best NL OPS out of RF this year. Granted, teams 6-10 were all closely bunched, but the Cubs biggest holes were SS, C and CF. If they can get an impact RF, I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, I know the 2007 stats. I was talking about looking ahead to 2008. I think Jones and/or Pie can outproduce CF from this past season (Pie improvement, Jacque in a FA year starting the season on time, no Pagan) and leave RF as the hole, with no Floyd and Murton probably on the bench.

 

Well yeah, of course RF is going to be a hole if you don't have anyone starting there...

 

Well, it's either nobody or Jacque Jones, which may or may not be the same thing.

[jersey cubs fan]

RF is a bigger hole than SS. The Cubs have been getting middle IF like production for what is supposed to be a big time offensive position. Get a slightly above league avg RF and you can hide the SS in the 8-hole if Soto and Pie/Jones hit like they can/should.

 

In all fairness, they got the 6th best NL OPS out of RF this year. Granted, teams 6-10 were all closely bunched, but the Cubs biggest holes were SS, C and CF. If they can get an impact RF, I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, I know the 2007 stats. I was talking about looking ahead to 2008. I think Jones and/or Pie can outproduce CF from this past season (Pie improvement, Jacque in a FA year starting the season on time, no Pagan) and leave RF as the hole, with no Floyd and Murton probably on the bench.

 

 

 

I'm not sure why Jones in a contract year gives you much faith, but if Floyd is gone and Jones is in center, I think Murton starts in RF and there is no real hole (although probably no mountain either).

 

no real hole in RF that is. I think CF could very easily still be a hole, and SS is still a huge hole, in that scenario.

[nilodnayr]

RF is a bigger hole than SS. The Cubs have been getting middle IF like production for what is supposed to be a big time offensive position. Get a slightly above league avg RF and you can hide the SS in the 8-hole if Soto and Pie/Jones hit like they can/should.

 

In all fairness, they got the 6th best NL OPS out of RF this year. Granted, teams 6-10 were all closely bunched, but the Cubs biggest holes were SS, C and CF. If they can get an impact RF, I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, I know the 2007 stats. I was talking about looking ahead to 2008. I think Jones and/or Pie can outproduce CF from this past season (Pie improvement, Jacque in a FA year starting the season on time, no Pagan) and leave RF as the hole, with no Floyd and Murton probably on the bench.

 

Well yeah, of course RF is going to be a hole if you don't have anyone starting there...

 

Well, it's either nobody or Jacque Jones, which may or may not be the same thing.

 

Murton did get nearly half the starts in August and September...

[NewUserName]

I agree with the original poster. I think adding Tejada or Renteria would just be adding to our roster of declining talent. Not really the upgrade everyone thinks they would be.

[nilodnayr]

Much talk on the NSBB is that the most glaring offensive need is the Cubs upgrading at either/or RF and SS. Much of the talk is acquiring Renteria or Tejada.

 

My question is - why these 2? Both are on the wrong side of 30 and the possibility of a decline in performance is to be expected over the next couple of years. They've had good careers, but I don't think these guys are the answer - the Cubs would be getting players beyond their prime.

 

Are there other SS options available (ie. similar to an ARamirez type player - young, good) that we could get? Someone under contract with a team with a surplus of talent may be interested in young pitchers with similar contract situations (Marshall, Cherry, Hart, etc..).

 

I don't have the answer, but just asking.

 

Both are short term contracts (2 years). Sure they are on the decline, but they are still MUCH MUCH MUCH better than what we have. Renteria is especially attractive because hes only owed 6M a year.

 

Also, we traded Cherry to Baltimore.

[badnews]

Much talk on the NSBB is that the most glaring offensive need is the Cubs upgrading at either/or RF and SS. Much of the talk is acquiring Renteria or Tejada.

 

My question is - why these 2? Both are on the wrong side of 30 and the possibility of a decline in performance is to be expected over the next couple of years. They've had good careers, but I don't think these guys are the answer - the Cubs would be getting players beyond their prime.

 

Are there other SS options available (ie. similar to an ARamirez type player - young, good) that we could get? Someone under contract with a team with a surplus of talent may be interested in young pitchers with similar contract situations (Marshall, Cherry, Hart, etc..).

 

I don't have the answer, but just asking.

 

Both are short term contracts (2 years). Sure they are on the decline, but they are still MUCH MUCH MUCH better than what we have. Renteria is especially attractive because hes only owed 6M a year.

 

Also, we traded Cherry to Baltimore.

 

I think if Renteria came here it'd be like his time with Boston all over again. Tejada posted a .799 OPS... neither will come cheap in a trade.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

An earlier post made an excellent point. Furcal is on the last year of his deal in 2008. He was a big disappointment this year in LA; granted, he wasn't 100% all year, but he didn't do squat until the last six weeks of the season. He's not a fan favorite at all, and Hu is ready.

 

Hendry may yet get his man, if he can figure out what to deal LA for Furcal that would interest them. And that's the problem. They already have too many OFs and too many IFs, especially with their prospects all hitting the majors at the same time. They could probably use a #4/#5 type starter and a middle reliever, but I don't think Sean Marshall and Mike Wuertz gets you Rafael Furcal.

 

But if the Cubs did get him, he can bat leadoff, allowing Soriano to be dropped to #5 in the order where he'd be a much better fit. DeRosa hits 2nd in this scenario and Soto 6th, what's not to like?

[Have a seat, Neifi]

In 2007-

 

Theriot: .668 OPS

Renteria: .860 OPS

Tejada: .799 OPS

 

I mean really. I don't think anyone's claiming that a guy like Tejada is necessarily a great value over the long term, but he's certainly an upgrade over the Riot for the near term. I mean I like Theriot and all (how you can argue with this GRIT factor) but we could certainly use an upgrade offensively while the rest of our corps is still relatively near their primes.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

An earlier post made an excellent point. Furcal is on the last year of his deal in 2008. He was a big disappointment this year in LA; granted, he wasn't 100% all year, but he didn't do squat until the last six weeks of the season. He's not a fan favorite at all, and Hu is ready.

 

Hendry may yet get his man, if he can figure out what to deal LA for Furcal that would interest them. And that's the problem. They already have too many OFs and too many IFs, especially with their prospects all hitting the majors at the same time. They could probably use a #4/#5 type starter and a middle reliever, but I don't think Sean Marshall and Mike Wuertz gets you Rafael Furcal.

 

But if the Cubs did get him, he can bat leadoff, allowing Soriano to be dropped to #5 in the order where he'd be a much better fit. DeRosa hits 2nd in this scenario and Soto 6th, what's not to like?

And generally, I'm a big fan of basebal players in their contract years. Andruw Jones is one of the few big-name players I can think of who didn't post near-career numbers in his contract season.

[nilodnayr]

Much talk on the NSBB is that the most glaring offensive need is the Cubs upgrading at either/or RF and SS. Much of the talk is acquiring Renteria or Tejada.

 

My question is - why these 2? Both are on the wrong side of 30 and the possibility of a decline in performance is to be expected over the next couple of years. They've had good careers, but I don't think these guys are the answer - the Cubs would be getting players beyond their prime.

 

Are there other SS options available (ie. similar to an ARamirez type player - young, good) that we could get? Someone under contract with a team with a surplus of talent may be interested in young pitchers with similar contract situations (Marshall, Cherry, Hart, etc..).

 

I don't have the answer, but just asking.

 

Both are short term contracts (2 years). Sure they are on the decline, but they are still MUCH MUCH MUCH better than what we have. Renteria is especially attractive because hes only owed 6M a year.

 

Also, we traded Cherry to Baltimore.

 

I think if Renteria came here it'd be like his time with Boston all over again. Tejada posted a .799 OPS... neither will come cheap in a trade.

 

What makes you think that Renteria being here would be like Boston all over again?

 

Tejada did have a .799 OPS in the AL East, without having the luxury of hitting against the Orioles pitchers. His post-ASB OPS was 822.

 

Like I said earlier, I don't expect these guys to come over and OPS 1000, but they will surely provide a signficant upgrade over what we had in 2007 and Theriot in 2008. Marshall's value is at its highest, I say sell now. Packaging him with someone like Patterson should net us Renteria.

[Derwood]

isn't it a given that just about anyone would be an upgrade over Theriot?

[NewUserName]

In 2007-

 

Theriot: .668 OPS

Renteria: .860 OPS

Tejada: .799 OPS

 

I mean really. I don't think anyone's claiming that a guy like Tejada is necessarily a great value over the long term, but he's certainly an upgrade over the Riot for the near term. I mean I like Theriot and all (how you can argue with this GRIT factor) but we could certainly use an upgrade offensively while the rest of our corps is still relatively near their primes.

 

I agree that either one would be better next year. Will they improve the team enough to win the division, The pennant and the World Series? Probably not. Especially considering both Soriano and Lee will probably decline next year. Than what do the Cubs have in 2 to 3 years? By then ARam would be declining also.

 

If Renteria or Tejada were the last piece needed to get the Cubs over the top, I would say go for it. They are not long term solutions though and the Cubs are not as close to being a World Championship caliber team that some think.

[jersey cubs fan]

In 2007-

 

Theriot: .668 OPS

Renteria: .860 OPS

Tejada: .799 OPS

 

I mean really. I don't think anyone's claiming that a guy like Tejada is necessarily a great value over the long term, but he's certainly an upgrade over the Riot for the near term. I mean I like Theriot and all (how you can argue with this GRIT factor) but we could certainly use an upgrade offensively while the rest of our corps is still relatively near their primes.

 

I agree that either one would be better next year. Will they improve the team enough to win the division, The pennant and the World Series? Probably not. Especially considering both Soriano and Lee will probably decline next year. Than what do the Cubs have in 2 to 3 years? By then ARam would be declining also.

 

If Renteria or Tejada were the last piece needed to get the Cubs over the top, I would say go for it. They are not long term solutions though and the Cubs are not as close to being a World Championship caliber team that some think.

 

I wouldn't bet on Soriano and Lee declining. Plateauing, or a small step back perhaps, but I would not put money on either being significantly worse. No, these teams don't make them elite (although if either Renteria or Tejada plays at his highest ability it might), but I think they do improve them enough to give them a better chance in 2008 than they would otherwise have. And given the fact that they would not be blocking any significant prospects, I'd say go for it.

[NewUserName]

In 2007-

 

Theriot: .668 OPS

Renteria: .860 OPS

Tejada: .799 OPS

 

I mean really. I don't think anyone's claiming that a guy like Tejada is necessarily a great value over the long term, but he's certainly an upgrade over the Riot for the near term. I mean I like Theriot and all (how you can argue with this GRIT factor) but we could certainly use an upgrade offensively while the rest of our corps is still relatively near their primes.

 

I agree that either one would be better next year. Will they improve the team enough to win the division, The pennant and the World Series? Probably not. Especially considering both Soriano and Lee will probably decline next year. Than what do the Cubs have in 2 to 3 years? By then ARam would be declining also.

 

If Renteria or Tejada were the last piece needed to get the Cubs over the top, I would say go for it. They are not long term solutions though and the Cubs are not as close to being a World Championship caliber team that some think.

 

I wouldn't bet on Soriano and Lee declining. Plateauing, or a small step back perhaps, but I would not put money on either being significantly worse. No, these teams don't make them elite (although if either Renteria or Tejada plays at his highest ability it might), but I think they do improve them enough to give them a better chance in 2008 than they would otherwise have. And given the fact that they would not be blocking any significant prospects, I'd say go for it.

 

 

I didnt say they would fall off the earth. What the Cubs would need to be A World Series contender is for them to improve. That is unlikely to happen at their age. I also think its unlikely that either Tejada or Renteria would preform at this highest ability. So whatever resources that it would take to get Renteria or Tejada would be best used in other areas. IMO

 

I honestly think as I have stated in other post is that the Cubs ought to help the Dodgers, by taking a couple of these young malcontents off their hands for a DLee or Soriano. If Frucal has to be thrown in to equal the money for a year I wouldnt mind.

[jersey cubs fan]

I didnt say they would fall off the earth. What the Cubs would need to be A World Series contender is for them to improve. That is unlikely to happen at their age. I also think its unlikely that either Tejada or Renteria would preform at this highest ability. So whatever resources that it would take to get Renteria or Tejada would be best used in other areas. IMO

 

I honestly think as I have stated in other post is that the Cubs ought to help the Dodgers, by taking a couple of these young malcontents off their hands for a DLee or Soriano. If Frucal has to be thrown in to equal the money for a year I wouldnt mind.

 

If the Cubs replaced their 2007 SS production with a Renteria or Tejada level of production, I don't think they'd need improvement from Soriano and Lee to be among the best NL teams next year. The CF, RF and C situations would need to be stabilized though.

[badnews]

Much talk on the NSBB is that the most glaring offensive need is the Cubs upgrading at either/or RF and SS. Much of the talk is acquiring Renteria or Tejada.

 

My question is - why these 2? Both are on the wrong side of 30 and the possibility of a decline in performance is to be expected over the next couple of years. They've had good careers, but I don't think these guys are the answer - the Cubs would be getting players beyond their prime.

 

Are there other SS options available (ie. similar to an ARamirez type player - young, good) that we could get? Someone under contract with a team with a surplus of talent may be interested in young pitchers with similar contract situations (Marshall, Cherry, Hart, etc..).

 

I don't have the answer, but just asking.

 

Both are short term contracts (2 years). Sure they are on the decline, but they are still MUCH MUCH MUCH better than what we have. Renteria is especially attractive because hes only owed 6M a year.

 

Also, we traded Cherry to Baltimore.

 

I think if Renteria came here it'd be like his time with Boston all over again. Tejada posted a .799 OPS... neither will come cheap in a trade.

 

What makes you think that Renteria being here would be like Boston all over again?

 

Tejada did have a .799 OPS in the AL East, without having the luxury of hitting against the Orioles pitchers. His post-ASB OPS was 822.

 

Like I said earlier, I don't expect these guys to come over and OPS 1000, but they will surely provide a signficant upgrade over what we had in 2007 and Theriot in 2008. Marshall's value is at its highest, I say sell now. Packaging him with someone like Patterson should net us Renteria.

 

The explanation given for Renteria's struggles in Boston were that he doesn't play well in colder weather and he doesn't like media attention. Renteria can be really sullen and he's never been a favorite of mine. He had two very good years with the Cardinals before becoming a free agent but most of the time he was a .735 OPS type shortstop. I don't trust him to come over here and produce like he did in Atlanta. The AL East didn't seem to be a pitching hotbed anymore than any other league... he got to hit against the first half Yankee pitching and Devil Rays relievers too... The problem is also that I don't find your trade proposals realistc. Sean Marshall has poor trade value, less trade value than Wandy Rodriguez. Teams are hardly all over themselves for a moderate groundball lefty who can't crack 100 innings. What's Marshall's upside, Mark Hendrickson? "We're just dying for that pitcher you unceremoniously dumped for Steve Trachsel." Patterson's not a great prospect either.

 

I think the cost will be a lot higher than you've posted here, which is part of my objections.

[jmajew]

Tejada would clearly be the choice over Renteria. I don't think it would cost that much to trade for either player as well. I can concievably see Marshall, Patterson, and Petrick getting the deal done. Plus Tejada and Renteria are in the last year of their contracts, so I don't see trading three prospects for him as that big of a risk.

 

Soriano, DeRosa, Lee, Ramirez, Tejada, Murton, Soto, Pie/Jones is a vastly improved lineup over what we had this year. This lineup would be in the top 5 in offense in the NL. Assuming our pitching doesn't regress, this will improve our team considerably. To add...I don't think this lineup would be as streaky either with non BA dependnt OBP from Murton, Soto, DeRosa, and Lee all in the lineup. Plus either of Soriano, Lee, Ramirez, and Tejada would be able to carry the team from time to time.

[JGalt73]

Tejada did have a .799 OPS in the AL East, without having the luxury of hitting against the Orioles pitchers. His post-ASB OPS was 822.

The AL East didn't seem to be a pitching hotbed anymore than any other league... he got to hit against the first half Yankee pitching and Devil Rays relievers too...

 

FWIW, here is the quality of pitchers faced in AVG/OBP/SLG allowed:

 

Edgar Renteria 0.253/0.337/0.404

Ryan Theriot 0.256/0.335/0.405

Miguel Tejada 0.252/0.330/0.398

[nilodnayr]

The explanation given for Renteria's struggles in Boston were that he doesn't play well in colder weather and he doesn't like media attention. Renteria can be really sullen and he's never been a favorite of mine. He had two very good years with the Cardinals before becoming a free agent but most of the time he was a .735 OPS type shortstop. I don't trust him to come over here and produce like he did in Atlanta. The AL East didn't seem to be a pitching hotbed anymore than any other league... he got to hit against the first half Yankee pitching and Devil Rays relievers too... The problem is also that I don't find your trade proposals realistc. Sean Marshall has poor trade value, less trade value than Wandy Rodriguez. Teams are hardly all over themselves for a moderate groundball lefty who can't crack 100 innings. What's Marshall's upside, Mark Hendrickson? "We're just dying for that pitcher you unceremoniously dumped for Steve Trachsel." Patterson's not a great prospect either.

 

I think the cost will be a lot higher than you've posted here, which is part of my objections.

 

Boston must have had an unseasonably cold June and July then because he OPS'ed 657 and 683 in those months. As far as media attention, he was like the 10th biggest name on that team. I'm sure he got media attention for sucking that year, but come on, media attention is no reason.

 

I agree he has been up and down, and I'm not the biggest fan of his attitude either, but when you have Ryan Theriot penciled in at starter, he doesn't look so bad. This year is quite flukey with the 375 BABIP, but even if you adjust for that you get right around his 2006 #s.

 

I agree that Marshall isn't the cat's meow, but I also wouldn't say he has poor trade value. Wandy Rodriguez hasn't done anything in the ML and is now 28, his stock has fallen significantly. It really all depends on how smart the opposing GM is. Peripheral-wise and FIP-wise, Marshall's 2007 campaign doesn't look great. ERA-wise he was a 24 yr old lefty who was under 4. As you mentioned, injuries are a concern (personally, I think the cubs shut him down this year because they didn't want him getting injured). He actually has pitched over 130 innings in each of the last 2 years, so thats a good sign. Patterson's bat will play in CF, hes not a great prospect, but hes a pretty good one. We also have other arms in the minors to give up.

 

My point is, that a team like the Braves are most likely looking for a pre-arbi starter who has proven himself in the majors. I can't think of anyone besides Marshall, who will be available who fits that bill.