I want me some JJ love..................

[Soul]

I hope he keeps it up so we can sell high this offseason.

 

And there it is. My feelings regarding Jacque Jones wrapped up in a nice, neat little package.

 

Thanks!

[RynoRules]

 

I don't really buy into your "deserves praise" theory. Jacque's job is to produce. He has done so at a very good rate for a fair amount of time, and at a very poor rate for a longer period of time. Personally, the fact that he regularly shows the ability to produce like this, but is unable to maintain it over the long haul provides me with more frustration than justification for praising the guy.

 

Goony, you can take the fun out of almost anything; do you like ice cream and pizza? :wink:

 

I don't see how I'm taking the fun out of anything here. I just don't buy into the "deserves praise" thing. Praise is a pretty strong word. I'm not going to praise any player who has a hot streak. I'm going to enjoy it, and be happy it happened, but why does it mean the player deserves praise? It's a bit melo-dramatic if you ask me. What matters is what the guy does over a full season, and in the case of free agents, the full, or at least most of, the contract. I didn't praise Alou for what he did in 2004 because it was too little too late in my book, as he crapped the bed in his first free agency year, when he was making what was at the time really big money. And he was, in my opinion, also a bit disappointing in 2003 (especially when compared with what he did before and after being a Cub).

 

If Jones were to somehow significantly outperform my expectations for him, then I'd be all for praising the guy. But the fact remains that as a Cub, Jones has basically been a .280/.330/.455 guy. His overall OPS is weak, especially in OBP, and the SLG hasn't come close to outweighing it.

 

Just having some fun with you. Hence the: :wink:

[Elrhino]

 

Good job hitting though Jones, I am glad for games we won because of your hitting.

 

Exactly.

 

And I appreciate the fact that he seems to be enjoying himself. A happy worker is a more productive worker, in my experience.

 

I also agree with Vance that we should try and deal him during the offseason and upgrade.

 

Finally, I don't understand why some of you find it so hard to admit that he has done a very nice job since the ASB. Its like there's some sort of Anti-Jacque society out there:

 

"The first rule of Jones Club is we never say anything about him that could be perceived as a compliment."

 

:wink:

 

Because many of them took the irrational position that Jacque was more likely to continue to produce at a sub .700 OPS in second half rather than producing at or about his career norms. They were wrong. In fact, he's been even better. People don't like to admit when they are wrong.

 

The funny thing is that the dislike for Hendry and dislike for Jones here seems to be clouding the judgment of certain of our so-called analytical posters. It was a pretty unremarkable proposition -- from an analytical perspective -- to suggest that Jones was likely to produce at or about career norms in the second half. Nevertheless, certain so-called analytical posters rejected that notion. In my view, that's a function of their personal dislike of Hendry and Jones.

 

This post is complete BS. He's been great. Everybody has admitted that. But overall he has still been piss poor. Are we not looking at the big picture now because everything is rosy?

 

Speaking of complete BS, his OPS+ his first year was 107. Even after his dreadfull start of the year, he's going to probably end up with an OPS at or over 90 while playing CF (his career OPS+ is 100).

 

How would that qualify his time as a Cub as, in your words, "piss poor"? Average, okay. But piss poor?

 

Hyperbole like that screams "I have an irrational, subjective bias against Jacque Jones".

Edited August 29, 2007 by Elrhino

[Warren Brusstar]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

[Elrhino]

If you can't honestly respect the difference between a homegrown prospect coming up and putting up these numbers for the league minimum and a past-prime FA signing putting up these numbers after a horrible 1st half of the season and a career of mediocrity, then there's really no use in you continuing this discussion, because you will get ripped to shreds.

 

:lol: Somehow, I think I'll survive.

 

Good lord, some of you guys take yourselves seriously. Pour yourself a stiff drink and kick up your feet ... God, it must be hell.

[rawaction]

 

Good job hitting though Jones, I am glad for games we won because of your hitting.

 

Exactly.

 

And I appreciate the fact that he seems to be enjoying himself. A happy worker is a more productive worker, in my experience.

 

I also agree with Vance that we should try and deal him during the offseason and upgrade.

 

Finally, I don't understand why some of you find it so hard to admit that he has done a very nice job since the ASB. Its like there's some sort of Anti-Jacque society out there:

 

"The first rule of Jones Club is we never say anything about him that could be perceived as a compliment."

 

:wink:

 

Because many of them took the irrational position that Jacque was more likely to continue to produce at a sub .700 OPS in second half rather than producing at or about his career norms. They were wrong. In fact, he's been even better. People don't like to admit when they are wrong.

 

The funny thing is that the dislike for Hendry and dislike for Jones here seems to be clouding the judgment of certain of our so-called analytical posters. It was a pretty unremarkable proposition -- from an analytical perspective -- to suggest that Jones was likely to produce at or about career norms in the second half. Nevertheless, certain so-called analytical posters rejected that notion. In my view, that's a function of their personal dislike of Hendry and Jones.

 

This post is complete BS. He's been great. Everybody has admitted that. But overall he has still been piss poor. Are we not looking at the big picture now because everything is rosy?

 

Speaking of complete BS, his OPS+ his first year was 107. Even after his dreadfull start of the year, he's going to probably end up with an OPS at or over 90 while playing CF (his career OPS+ is 100).

 

How would that qualify as, in your words, "piss poor"? Average, okay. But piss poor?

 

Hyperbole like that screams "I have a subjective bias against Jacque Jones".

 

How can you unequivocably say his OPS+ is "probably" gonna end up at of over 90? He's at 83 right now. Has it become a given that he has another month like August? Because that's the only way it's gonna happen. Even if he has another solid month like July, he's probably not gonna get to 90.

 

And I'd like to point out that 100 OPS+ is "average". 90 is clearly below average. 83 is well below average AKA piss poor. He's been the offensive equivalent of Tony Graffanino this year. He's been further below average than Soriano has been above average.

 

Thirdly, don't confuse hyperbole with fact.

 

And who was talking about Jones as a Cub. I'm talking 2007. This thread has been about his hot streak. THIS YEAR. He has sucked THIS YEAR. He was decent-to-good last year. I've never said otherwise.

[rawaction]

If you can't honestly respect the difference between a homegrown prospect coming up and putting up these numbers for the league minimum and a past-prime FA signing putting up these numbers after a horrible 1st half of the season and a career of mediocrity, then there's really no use in you continuing this discussion, because you will get ripped to shreds.

 

:lol: Somehow, I think I'll survive.

 

Good lord, some of you guys take yourselves seriously. Pour yourself a stiff drink and kick up your feet ... God, it must be hell.

 

Again, you don't know the difference between fact and hyperbole. That line was obviously figuratively speaking.

 

And just because you said something that made no sense, and I called you out on it...that means I take myself too seriously? No. It just makes you wrong.

[jersey cubs fan]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

[rawaction]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

and on career numbers at that. Everyone on that list is a better player than Jacque. Without looking up the numbers, I think most have been better this year.

[Warren Brusstar]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

[SouthSideRyan]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, Jacque's quick n dirty OPS+ is 86(baseballreference hasn't updated yet, I figured out his OPS and it's the same as Barrett who has an 86 with the Cubs. I think Jacque finishes around 92, which as I said is respectable for a CF.

[rawaction]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

[Warren Brusstar]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

 

Those hitters certainly give you more roster flexibility because you don't have to platoon them. That doesn't change the fact that -- used properly -- the vast vast majority of at bats that Jacque will have, he is a well-above average hitter for his position.

[RynoRules]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

 

There are far fewer lefties than righties overall, no? Plus guys like Beltran, Jones, Hunter, Wells and Damon make a ton more than Jones does. You can't do a thorough analysis IMO without considering salary.

[rawaction]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

 

Those hitters certainly give you more roster flexibility because you don't have to platoon them. That doesn't change the fact that -- used properly -- the vast vast majority of at bats that Jacque will have, he is a well-above average hitter for his position.

 

No. The numbers you show prove that Jones is/was capable of being well above average for his position if used properly. 2006 was the only year in the last 4 in which Jones has put up a his career numbers vs. RHPs....and he wasn't a CF for any of those years, so who knows where he ranked for corner OFs. He's well below that this year, and was well below in 2004. I count 3 caveats (capable, for his position, and if used properly). The rest are just, well above average.

[rawaction]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

 

There are far fewer lefties than righties overall, no? Plus guys like Beltran, Jones, Hunter, Wells and Damon make a ton more than Jones does. You can't do a thorough analysis IMO without considering salary.

 

But you can without using all pitchers? Makes sense.

[RynoRules]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

Why do you constantly focus solely on his splits vs RHP?

 

Because generally, that's all he is (and should) be playing against.

 

Moreover, it's really easy to find replacement level right handed CFs who can post reasonable numbers against LHP.

 

 

But is that fair to those hitters who can also hit LHPs? It's not like LHPs are rare enough to just throw them out of the discussion.

 

There are far fewer lefties than righties overall, no? Plus guys like Beltran, Jones, Hunter, Wells and Damon make a ton more than Jones does. You can't do a thorough analysis IMO without considering salary.

 

But you can without using all pitchers? Makes sense.

 

I am going to assume you were not trying to be smarmy with that comment (though I suspect otherwise) and respond normally.

 

Obviously not, but you can't do it by assuming that there are an equal amount of right and lefthanders. Thus you must first determine how many of those pitchers are lefthanded. I'd guess about 33-40% on the high end. This means that more picthers are right handed, which means that batters face right handed picthers more often. Get where I am going here?

[abuck1220]

yeah, he's proving the world wrong with that .718 OPS.

 

His OPS in the second half is .851. Please find me CF'ers we could have had with a better second half OPS.

 

His OPS over his last 30 games is .924.

 

It's clear that his abhorrent start is affecting that OPS greatly, so comments like yours are clearly disingenuous because they look at his numbers in a vacuum. It's clear he's been a different Jock since the break. Posting those numbers wouldn't help you though.l

 

fantastic stuff. a guy posting his last-30-days ops is giving me crap about being selective about what numbers i'm citing.

 

oh man, then i just read that i'm posting numbers in a vacuum...literally the sentence after you post the all-encompassing last-30-days ops. and, of course, i'm taking into consideration that completely unfair and shortsighted stat of his season ops. honestly, that's great.

[abuck1220]

I hate to drag this out yet again but the Cubs could do a lot worse than JJ in CF.

 

He's got a career .825 OPS v. RHP

 

By comparison, lifetime OPS v. RHP:

 

Carlos Beltran .840

Mike Cameron .757

Johnny Damon .797

Andruw Jones .831

Vernon Wells .779

Torii Hunter .778

Nick Swisher .778

 

In center field, his bat is well above average.

 

and thank goodness major league baseball has banned left-handed pitchers.

[RynoRules]

yeah, he's proving the world wrong with that .718 OPS.

 

His OPS in the second half is .851. Please find me CF'ers we could have had with a better second half OPS.

 

His OPS over his last 30 games is .924.

 

It's clear that his abhorrent start is affecting that OPS greatly, so comments like yours are clearly disingenuous because they look at his numbers in a vacuum. It's clear he's been a different Jock since the break. Posting those numbers wouldn't help you though.l

 

fantastic stuff. a guy posting his last-30-days ops is giving me crap about being selective about what numbers i'm citing.

 

oh man, then i just read that i'm posting numbers in a vacuum...literally the sentence after you post the all-encompassing last-30-days ops. and, of course, i'm taking into consideration that completely unfair and shortsighted stat of his season ops. honestly, that's great.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating that Jacque be elected to the HOF here; in fact most of us are advocating that we capitalize on his production and then peddle him during the offseason. What exectly is wrong with that?

[sweetpeteman]

Since the ASB Jones has OPSed .862 vs RHP in 127 PAs.

 

 

Vs. LHP, in 34 PAs albeit, .861.

[abuck1220]

yeah, he's proving the world wrong with that .718 OPS.

 

His OPS in the second half is .851. Please find me CF'ers we could have had with a better second half OPS.

 

His OPS over his last 30 games is .924.

 

It's clear that his abhorrent start is affecting that OPS greatly, so comments like yours are clearly disingenuous because they look at his numbers in a vacuum. It's clear he's been a different Jock since the break. Posting those numbers wouldn't help you though.l

 

fantastic stuff. a guy posting his last-30-days ops is giving me crap about being selective about what numbers i'm citing.

 

oh man, then i just read that i'm posting numbers in a vacuum...literally the sentence after you post the all-encompassing last-30-days ops. and, of course, i'm taking into consideration that completely unfair and shortsighted stat of his season ops. honestly, that's great.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating that Jacque be elected to the HOF here; in fact most of us are advocating that we capitalize on his production and then peddle him during the offseason. What exectly is wrong with that?

 

nothing. but that's not what the person i was quoting was saying.

[RynoRules]

Since the ASB Jones has OPSed .862 vs RHP in 127 PAs.

 

 

Vs. LHP, in 34 PAs albeit, .861.

 

Small sample size, but lends credence to the notion that Jones is a violently streaky hitter who can't be relied on over the long haul.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

One further comment on last night's game. 3-1, 2 on, 0 out, 7th inning. Jones is hitting the ball well. The moment he got to the plate, I was hoping Lou wouldn't ask him to sacrifice. Maybe I am just conditioned to this after years of Baylor and Baker. Lou plays the game to win. He put it in Jones hands and he came through. Even if Jones fails there, it is the right move to let him swing away.

 

In the past, how likely is it that Baylor and/or Baker have Jones bunting there ?

[jersey cubs fan]

One further comment on last night's game. 3-1, 2 on, 0 out, 7th inning. Jones is hitting the ball well. The moment he got to the plate, I was hoping Lou wouldn't ask him to sacrifice. Maybe I am just conditioned to this after years of Baylor and Baker. Lou plays the game to win. He put it in Jones hands and he came through. Even if Jones fails there, it is the right move to let him swing away.

 

In the past, how likely is it that Baylor and/or Baker have Jones bunting there ?

 

Probably very high. And if/when the Cubs lost, people would have said at least they were playing the game the "right way". I definitely enjoy Lou's go for the big inning mentality.