Beware of lineup holes

[RegulusBlue]

It's getting annoying that people keep making judgments about a player's defense based on a couple games. Jones is fine in CF. He's no Pie out there, but he's not nearly as bad as people try and portray him. He's perfectly average defensively. That said, Pie probably deserves another shot, cause Jacque just isn't turning it around at the plate like I thought he would.

 

I'll agree that Jones is average defensively in CF, but I'm very concerned with his offense. I have never thought he was a good hitter, but he managed to patch himself up nicely last year after one of the worst starts I've seen to a season.

He has nearly zero strike zone awareness, his swing gets a huge loop in it when he's excited, and he is a very bad baserunner. He strikes out way too much, isn't a contact hitter unless in Juan Pierre mode, and he really brings nothing to the table if he's not hitting bombs, which he is certainly not.

If it were up to me, I put Jones on waivers yesterday, or flip him for a worthless minor leaguer and some cash just to cut payroll in a transitional year for ownership. Every million not spent on Jacque could easily be spent on Big Z.

 

On the crazier side, I've never seen concrete evidence that Murton can't be given a shot in CF. He's probably similar to Jones out there, and then DeRosa can grab more time in RF, and Floyd can still be properly used. He's got enough speed to get to some balls, and he's got a better arm than JJ, so lets do it. Murton/Pagan in CF and Murton/DeRosa/Floyd in RF.

 

We could also stop being sissies and put Soriano back in CF where he belongs. That move to LF is the reason our roster has been so skewed all year for sure.

[Omar]

Didn't Marquis have a 6 inning 3 run quality start the other day? He's a serviceable 5th starter for now.

 

The quality start statistic is so stupid.

 

3 ER in 6 IP = 4.50 ERA

 

Is that really what anyone would consider "quality" pitching?

 

From the worst pitcher on my squad? I'll take it from my #5.

 

I'll accept it, but I won't like it.

 

How many teams in baseball have a #5 starter with a 4.50 ERA or better? I would guess not many.

 

The problem is Marquis has an ERA of 5.09 and 6.29 in June and July. If a 4.50 ERA game is the best he can do, and he's regularly doing worst, that's a big problem.

 

He was facing the best offense in the NL. I'll be more interested to see what he does against a middle-of-the-pack team... like the Mets this weekend, Or at least a team thats not in 1st in terms of R/G.

[Drew Doughty]

He was facing the best offense in the NL. I'll be more interested to see what he does against a middle-of-the-pack team... like the Mets this weekend, Or at least a team thats not in 1st in terms of R/G.

 

does Houston work? 4 IP, 6 ER. How about Pittsburgh? 4.2, 6 ER.

[jersey cubs fan]

The problem is Marquis has an ERA of 5.09 and 6.29 in June and July. If a 4.50 ERA game is the best he can do, and he's regularly doing worst, that's a big problem.

 

He was facing the best offense in the NL. I'll be more interested to see what he does against a middle-of-the-pack team... like the Mets this weekend, Or at least a team thats not in 1st in terms of R/G.

 

He faced the best offense every game in June and July?

[Soul]

God, I'm gonna get so blasted for this.

 

Kendall, last 7 days:

 

 BA   OBP   SLG   OPS  
.350  .435  .450  .885

 

I'm not a Kendall fan but he is doing much better recently. Obviously he won't keep this up, but what if he settles in at a reasonable rate of offensive production?

 

And what if Heidi Klum knocks on my door and tells me to ravage her?

 

Hahaha. Alright, fair enough. I just saw the numbers on baseball reference, and I've seen a couple hits from the guy recently, so I figured it should be posted. Please don't kill me!! 8-)

Edited August 2, 2007 by Soul

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm one of the biggest defenders of Murton's defense, but I don't think he has the range to handle CF. It wouldn't be a nightmare if he was forced in there for a couple innings(as he was earlier this year) Or even a start or 2 for whatever reason, but Matt Murton everyday CF is not something I want to see.

[windycityfan]

We could also stop being sissies and put Soriano back in CF where he belongs. That move to LF is the reason our roster has been so skewed all year for sure.

 

Soriano does not belong in CF.

Soriano's defense (or lack thereof) is better hidden in a corner OF.

Soriano's bat picked up after he was switched to LF (coincidence or not).

The Cubs are playing their best baseball since.

The Cubs jumped to 1st place in the standings.

You don't f*** with 1st place in the standings.

 

Should I keep going?

[VVMattVV]

We could also stop being sissies and put Soriano back in CF where he belongs. That move to LF is the reason our roster has been so skewed all year for sure.

 

Soriano does not belong in CF.

Soriano's defense (or lack thereof) is better hidden in a corner OF.

Soriano's bat picked up after he was switched to LF (coincidence or not).

The Cubs are playing their best baseball since.

The Cubs jumped to 1st place in the standings.

You don't f*** with 1st place in the standings.

 

Should I keep going?

 

What else could you say? Soriano to LF is obviously why we're in first, can't argue with that deductive reasoning.

[RegulusBlue]

We could also stop being sissies and put Soriano back in CF where he belongs. That move to LF is the reason our roster has been so skewed all year for sure.

 

Soriano does not belong in CF.

Soriano's defense (or lack thereof) is better hidden in a corner OF.

Soriano's bat picked up after he was switched to LF (coincidence or not).

The Cubs are playing their best baseball since.

The Cubs jumped to 1st place in the standings.

You don't f*** with 1st place in the standings.

 

Should I keep going?

 

No, you should stop talking.

 

Does not belong? I challenge you to defend that line of reason in any meaningful way.

 

Soriano's defense has been pretty damn good, actually.

 

Soriano started hitting because he's a good hitter, not some magical property of being 150 feet farther to the 3rd base side.

 

The Cubs are playing better due to better offensive production and some lineup changes.

 

You do F with first place in the standings because this team isn't as good as it could be.

 

Baseball isn't magic, buddy. Its scary numbers and evil computers.

[SouthSideRyan]

Soriano was and still would be pretty good defensively in CF. It really doesn't matter with our current roster construction though, as all moving Soriano to CF would do would be to allow Murton and Floyd to play at the same time, which really isn't that important to me.

[windycityfan]

Does not belong? I challenge you to defend that line of reason in any meaningful way.

 

Did you watch his stint in CF earlier this season? Why do you think he was switched back to LF? So he could look better with the Under Armour sing in the background?

 

His jumps were late, his reach awkward and miscommunication with corner OFs could have cost lives.

 

Whatever the reasons why he started hitting aside, Lou and Soriano himself manifested several times over that stretch that he felt more comfortable concentrating on his bat after the CF 'experiment' was over (edit - disguised through the hamstring injury).

 

Long story short, his defense was not good in CF. I'll leave it up to you to dig up the articles.

Edited August 2, 2007 by windycityfan

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let's not get hostile with our tones here guys. And please don't tell other posters what they can or cannot say.

[RegulusBlue]

Does not belong? I challenge you to defend that line of reason in any meaningful way.

 

Did you watch his stint in CF earlier this season? Why do you think he was switched back to LF? So he could look better with the Under Armour sing in the background?

 

His jumps were late, his reach awkward and miscommunication with corner OFs could have cost lives.

 

Whatever the reasons why he started hitting aside, Lou and Soriano himself manifested several times over that stretch that he felt more comfortable concentrating on his bat after the CF 'experiment' was over (edit - disguised through the hamstring injury).

 

Long story short, his defense was not good in CF. I'll leave it up to you to dig up the articles.

 

He had never played there before. Of course there would be an adjustment period. He'd look better in LF because he had a year of experience there.

 

Remember when he kicked the ball around in Washington at first in LF? He had to adjust. Somehow, the Nats stomached a couple of weeks of learning on the job and he became relatively good.

 

The bottom line is we panicked when he tweaked something on a weird play, and threw our OF backup situation into disarray. If he went back to CF, we could play the correct lineups, and we'd be much better for it.

[windycityfan]

Does not belong? I challenge you to defend that line of reason in any meaningful way.

 

Did you watch his stint in CF earlier this season? Why do you think he was switched back to LF? So he could look better with the Under Armour sing in the background?

 

His jumps were late, his reach awkward and miscommunication with corner OFs could have cost lives.

 

Whatever the reasons why he started hitting aside, Lou and Soriano himself manifested several times over that stretch that he felt more comfortable concentrating on his bat after the CF 'experiment' was over (edit - disguised through the hamstring injury).

 

Long story short, his defense was not good in CF. I'll leave it up to you to dig up the articles.

 

He had never played there before. Of course there would be an adjustment period. He'd look better in LF because he had a year of experience there.

 

Remember when he kicked the ball around in Washington at first in LF? He had to adjust. Somehow, the Nats stomached a couple of weeks of learning on the job and he became relatively good.

 

The bottom line is we panicked when he tweaked something on a weird play, and threw our OF backup situation into disarray. If he went back to CF, we could play the correct lineups, and we'd be much better for it.

 

But it'd be a matter of time until he gets to switch back. Pie is truly our best CF.

 

Give it a couple of weeks. The way it's going again (with JJones' play and Floyd's nicks), we may finally see our OF of the future very soon and everyday: Soriano, Pie and Murton (order be damned).

[RegulusBlue]

Does not belong? I challenge you to defend that line of reason in any meaningful way.

 

Did you watch his stint in CF earlier this season? Why do you think he was switched back to LF? So he could look better with the Under Armour sing in the background?

 

His jumps were late, his reach awkward and miscommunication with corner OFs could have cost lives.

 

Whatever the reasons why he started hitting aside, Lou and Soriano himself manifested several times over that stretch that he felt more comfortable concentrating on his bat after the CF 'experiment' was over (edit - disguised through the hamstring injury).

 

Long story short, his defense was not good in CF. I'll leave it up to you to dig up the articles.

 

He had never played there before. Of course there would be an adjustment period. He'd look better in LF because he had a year of experience there.

 

Remember when he kicked the ball around in Washington at first in LF? He had to adjust. Somehow, the Nats stomached a couple of weeks of learning on the job and he became relatively good.

 

The bottom line is we panicked when he tweaked something on a weird play, and threw our OF backup situation into disarray. If he went back to CF, we could play the correct lineups, and we'd be much better for it.

 

But it'd be a matter of time until he gets to switch back. Pie is truly our best CF.

 

Give it a couple of weeks. The way it's going again (with JJones' play and Floyd's nicks), we may finally see our OF of the future very soon and everyday: Soriano, Pie and Murton (order be damned).

 

Thank god for that. We agree on that OF.

[Rob]

Let's not get hostile with our tones here guys. And please don't tell other posters what they can or cannot say.

 

Isn't that what you just did?

[Sarcastic]

Let's not get hostile with our tones here guys. And please don't tell other posters what they can or cannot say.

 

Isn't that what you just did?

 

Don't bait the mods.

[NCCubFan]

Hill is flat out garbage but will continue to get AB's, nothing we can do there.

Sure we can do something. We can hire Jeff Gilooly and friends to take out Hill's knee. :D

[Lefty]

Is there a more worthless player than Jones without power?

[TruffleShuffle]

Is there a more worthless player than Jones without power?

 

anybody who plays catcher for the cubs

[JGalt73]

From BP's Hitlist...

 

While the promotion of Murton is a good sign, this team's failure to further augment an outfield where Jacque Jones, Cliff Floyd, Felix Pie, and Angel Pagan have combined for -0.1 VORP may come back to haunt them.

[soccer10k]

Is there a more worthless player than Jones without power?

 

anybody who plays catcher for the cubs

 

Jose Macias?

[CubColtPacer]

Looking now, it looks like the problem might not be as much in these lineup holes anymore.

 

RF will be hopefully covered by Murton. It will be interesting to see when Floyd gets back if Murton still plays a ton, but my guess is that Murton has earned the majority of time at this point.

 

C-Kendall probably won't do as well as he has so far for the Cubs, but he is on quite a streak right now. This certainly doesn't look like an offensive black hole in the lineup right now. 1 out of every 5 days, there is definitely a hole when Hill is in the lineup.

 

CF-Jacque Jones is simply scalding the ball right now-he is hot as any player I've seen in quite a while. Obviously he isn't going to keep his August up (it would be just about impossible for him to keep up between a 1.100 and a 1.200 OPS as he has right now through the first two weeks of August). By the same token, I'm not sure you can call this an offensive hole anymore either. He had the OBP in July, and in August he's added the power to it.

 

SS-probably still the biggest hole, although Theriot has been very good at times.

 

In September, when Soriano comes back, the likely lineup will be:

 

Soriano

Theriot

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

DeRosa

Murton

Kendall

Pitcher

 

I think that's a better lineup now than anything the Cubs have put up earlier in the season (even if one of Jones or Kendall simply collapse and start being terrible again).

 

Basically, I'm not sure the offense will be as much of a problem in the final few weeks of the season, especially when Soriano gets back.

The pitching is probably more concerning to me right now-the pitching carried the offense through most of the year, it's only fair if the offense carries the pitching a little bit down the stretch.

[Cynosure]

I know I'm excited that the Cubs have caught the surprising Brewers, who look like they're falling apart, but our team has huge gaping holes in it.

 

1. Jacque Jones just cannot play a good CF. He misjudged a couple balls in the inning that tied the game, his arm is atrocious at best, and he just isn't a good enough hitter to be a positive for a team shooting for the playoffs. Pagan is better running in the field, but he's not very good at the plate either.

Answer: Felix Pie. It'll take dogged determination to leave him in until he's comfortable, but Felix is the best CF we have, and watching the Brewers succeed with youth should make it obvious that we can as well.

 

2. Koyie Hill and Jason Kendall do not belong on a MLB roster right now. Kendall has picked it up quite a bit since he's gotten here, but the face remains that he's just not 2000-2003 Jason Kendall anymore, and his numbers are as ugly as his facial hair. Hill, on the other hand, does nothing well enough to merit even consideration at this level. He's the worst hitter I may have ever seen, period.

Answer: Geovany Soto. This one is even easier than Pie, because we're trading in Hill, who does nothing, for someone who can throw out runners, and hit a little bit. A Hank White/Soto tandem is ideal eventually for this year.

 

3. Cliff Floyd is no longer an everyday player. He is valuable in his own right, and he's a lefty bat in a lineup that is somewhat short on them, but he literally cannot play everyday, and he risks injury or getting worn down by the end of the year. Feel free to abuse him in October, but I'd rather not get him running on fumes now. He needs to sit more often, or he'll lose effectiveness.

Answer: Matt Murton. Regardless of how you feel about Murton, his numbers suggest that he is at least as good as Floyd at this stage of his career, and he is young enough that wearing down won't be an issue. He is the answer that has the most experience and success at this level. Floyd still gets 2 starts a week, but is largely a pinch hitter to preserve him.

 

4. DeRosa needs to play as much as possible. A player that can play RF, LF, or any INF spot is very useful, especially when he's as good as DeRosa has been. To maximize his value, you have to play him instead of the weakest link on the field. Right now that is Fontenot or Theriot. DeRosa is a second baseman by trade, so it makes sense to slot him over Fontenot.

Answer: 3-5 starts at 2B, 1-2 starts spelling other players per week. DeRosa's value is maximized if he's utilized as a starter whenever possible, but also to give rest to everyday players, such as Lee and Ramirez.

 

5. Marquis is becoming himself again recently. A handful of shaky outings (with one excellent start in there as well) recently has the discerning Cubs fan fearing the next couple months. Last year's bad season for Jason is probably closer to his actual ability than his good season the year previous. How long can he continue to skate by with 4-6 run, 5 inning outings and expect to get a win?

Answer: Nothing. Short of pulling him in the fourth or fifth inning regularly and giving him his own safety pin long reliever, Marquis will likely revert to himself, if he hasn't already. This is one problem with no solution for the Cubs this year, and it will cost us a few games, but we've done well enough so far, so we'll just have to hope.

 

According to the geniuses on this board, line-up order doesn't matter though.

[Burtonbell]

 

According to the geniuses on this board, line-up order doesn't matter though.

Oh, get over it! Your words...not mine.

 

 

Back to the post. My lineup would be this

 

Soriano LF

Theriot SS

Lee 1B

Ramirez 3B

Murton RF

DeRosa 2B

Kendall C

Pie CF

Pitcher