Players who have no business being in the majors

[UK1679666180]

If I was to guess what to expect from Soto the remainder of the year offensively...

 

.255/.325/.375 would be fair and cautious for a rookie who may taken the next step as a hitter.

[Sarcastic]

At this point, the Cubs don't have any better options than Soto, but his only good offensive season has come in under 200 ABs. His overall minor league record is pretty so-so. While it is conceivable that this small sample size represents his talent, and I don't deny that he is still developing as a hitter, I think some here are being a bit optimistic about his possible performance based on his plate discipline and under 200 AAA ABs. He really hasn't been a very good hitter in the minors, and it is entirely possible that he won't even be able to repeat those numbers at the major league level.

 

You realize he's a catcher right?

 

If somebody is thinking he'll match his 2007 AAA numbers, they will be sorely mistaken. But that's not the only time he's put up decent minor league numbers. Again, he's a catcher. The major leagues are littered with catchers who can't even sniff Soto's minor league numbers. I don't think anybody is thinking he's a lock for 10 year starter or a good bet for a future all star game. He's a cheap alternative to what they have who actually provides some upside that nobody else on the roster provides. Even if he fails to match his pre 2007 averages, he stands a good chance of providing offense that half the league isn't getting from catcher. 8 teams are getting sub 700 OPS production from the catcher spot. Thanks to the 600 OPS by Koyie Hill and 384 OPS by Henry Blanco, the Cubs are in that group, with a line of just .236/.288/.382.

 

I would say it would actually be very difficult for Soto not to be an improvement over that.

 

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

[jersey cubs fan]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

I really don't think many people think he's an upgrade over Barrett, certainly not offensively. And I don't think anybody thinks of him as a savior.

 

Hopefully he and Bowen fill the spot for a few years until Donaldson develops.

 

I can live with slightly below NL average offense out of catcher out of a couple of $350,000 players who are good defensively, as long as the Cubs fix the SS and RF problems.

 

The 8th ranked NL catching team is at .272/.299/.401

The 9th ranked NL catching team is at .254/.301/.392

 

A Bowen/Soto combo should be able to threaten those levels.

[Sarcastic]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

I really don't think many people think he's an upgrade over Barrett, certainly not offensively. And I don't think anybody thinks of him as a savior.

 

Hopefully he and Bowen fill the spot for a few years until Donaldson develops.

 

I can live with slightly below NL average offense out of catcher out of a couple of $350,000 players who are good defensively, as long as the Cubs fix the SS and RF problems.

 

The 8th ranked NL catching team is at .272/.299/.401

The 9th ranked NL catching team is at .254/.301/.392

 

A Bowen/Soto combo should be able to threaten those levels.

 

They'd have a shot.

 

I'd also like to see one of the offensive upgrades you mentioned, but I won't be holding my breath. Hendry hasn't made a good trade along those lines for years. I can't think of a good trade he made to bring in an impact bat since Nomar.

[hawkeyecub]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

We don't need him to be a savior. We need him to play good defense and provide average-above average offense for his position.

 

As far as upgrade, he obviously isn't offensively. But as far as a use of the team's resources he may be. We would be upgrading by a decent amount defensively, paying less than $1M to fill both catcher spots and getting much younger.

 

He won't have a 3-year stretch offensively like Barrett has had, but I think he's capable of putting up an .800 OPS in his best year(s) which combined with his defense and price tag, could make him a great value.

[Sammy Sofa]

We don't need Soto or Whatsisface McPadre to be "saviors"...like it was just said, if they can be decent as catchers and not hit as bad as Blanco, they're doing their job. Barrett wasn't a "savior"...I wish this team would focus on fixing the gaping holes in SS and RF so we can stop pretending like a hitting catcher is something we desperately need.

[Soriano12]

has Scott Eyre been mentioned?

[Sarcastic]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

We don't need him to be a savior. We need him to play good defense and provide average-above average offense for his position.

 

As far as upgrade, he obviously isn't offensively. But as far as a use of the team's resources he may be. We would be upgrading by a decent amount defensively, paying less than $1M to fill both catcher spots and getting much younger.

 

He won't have a 3-year stretch offensively like Barrett has had, but I think he's capable of putting up an .800 OPS in his best year(s) which combined with his defense and price tag, could make him a great value.

 

It could, if that were realistic, but besides this season, in which he has under 200 ABs, he has never put up an OPS of .800 in the minors. In fact, before this year, his highest OPS was .756 in AA last year. I just hope he can put up a decent .700 OPS, which is more than any of our other catchers are likely to do.

[Sarcastic]

We don't need Soto or Whatsisface McPadre to be "saviors"...like it was just said, if they can be decent as catchers and not hit as bad as Blanco, they're doing their job. Barrett wasn't a "savior"...I wish this team would focus on fixing the gaping holes in SS and RF so we can stop pretending like a hitting catcher is something we desperately need.

 

We need a hitting ANYTHING. It doesn't matter where the hitting comes from, although it was much more rare and difficult to replace when it came from the catcher's position. A good hitter playing a defensive position doesn't make him less valuable, it makes him more valuable.

[Sammy Sofa]

We don't need Soto or Whatsisface McPadre to be "saviors"...like it was just said, if they can be decent as catchers and not hit as bad as Blanco, they're doing their job. Barrett wasn't a "savior"...I wish this team would focus on fixing the gaping holes in SS and RF so we can stop pretending like a hitting catcher is something we desperately need.

 

We need a hitting ANYTHING. It doesn't matter where the hitting comes from, although it was much more rare and difficult to replace when it came from the catcher's position. A good hitter playing a defensive position doesn't make him less valuable, it makes him more valuable.

 

I mean from the perspective that we need to replace Barrett with a catcher who can hit. Well, no, we only have to do that if we can't fix RF and SS, which are much easier to improve offensively.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Sammy Sosa

[Soriano12]

Sammy Sosa

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1778141/2/istockphoto_1778141_dunce_cap.jpg

[Balsa]

WHAT?!

 

25 BB and 6 WP in 52 IP is not good. 5.88 ERA even less so.

 

He has talent and will make the big leagues one day, but he has absolutely been rocked the last 4 starts (22 ER in 20 IP). Either he makes a big adjustment soon or he should go back to AAA to get some confidence back.

You've got to be kidding me. Have you seen his AAA numbers? He's got nothing left to learn or to prove there.

 

WP and walks just mean he's a bit wild, but at the same time he's got a 2:1 K:BB ratio and his BAA is just .232 and his K/9 is over 9.

 

He needs nothing else but more starts.

[Sarcastic]

We don't need Soto or Whatsisface McPadre to be "saviors"...like it was just said, if they can be decent as catchers and not hit as bad as Blanco, they're doing their job. Barrett wasn't a "savior"...I wish this team would focus on fixing the gaping holes in SS and RF so we can stop pretending like a hitting catcher is something we desperately need.

 

We need a hitting ANYTHING. It doesn't matter where the hitting comes from, although it was much more rare and difficult to replace when it came from the catcher's position. A good hitter playing a defensive position doesn't make him less valuable, it makes him more valuable.

 

I mean from the perspective that we need to replace Barrett with a catcher who can hit. Well, no, we only have to do that if we can't fix RF and SS, which are much easier to improve offensively.

 

In that case, perhaps we should have added a good bat and then traded away a good bat for nothing.

[abuck1220]

alex sanchez. whoops, he's not in the league.

 

ya, he got cut in ST by the Fish.

 

Have you checked up on your boy Corey abuck? .210/.261/.288.

 

when was corey ever my boy?

[Irrelevant Dude]

I don't normally say stuff like this, but I'm pretty sure Jacque Jones has completely stopped trying.

 

I think he's trying harder because he wants to be traded and knows nobody wants him. He's screwed either way. If he gets traded, it's likely going to mean somebody wanted a part time player. If he stays, he gets to hear it from the Chicago fans for 1.5 more seasons, and he probably will still end up a part time player.

 

Let this be a lesson to players of MLB. If you can't take criticism and jeering when you underperform your pay, don't bother asking the Cubs for a contract. Just because the GM is an idiot and thinks you're worth 6M a year doesn't mean the fans will agree.

 

I honestly don't see an ounce of effort out of him. He goes up there looking to make the quickest out possible.

It's not that Jones isn't trying, but his body language appears to be that of a player who is expecting to make an out everytime he comes to the plate. At this point, he has absolutely no value to a team, so the best we can probably hope for is an injury along with an extended rehab stint.

[Amazing_Grace]

Geovany Soto, Ryan Theriot, Mike Fontenot, etc.

 

No, their hotstreaks do not mean that they will make great starters. I still don't know what people like about Soto besides one good season in AAA.

 

Not being great starters does not mean they have no business being in the majors. That's an incredibly stupid post.

 

Soto had a good 2004 in AA, a good 2006 in AAA and is having a very good 2007 in AAA. Catchers generally take a little longer to develop. It's conceivable Soto could put up numbers between his pre 2007 minor league average .262/.344/.371 and his current numbers .324/.397/.555. If he managed to put up even his pre 2007 minor league average, he'd be doing better than what 11 NL teams are getting from their catcher spot.

 

Soto has always been young for his league too, this year was the first year he's been at an age appropriate level. He's always been able to take a walk, and he's a very good defender to boot.

 

Yes, and if you look closely at his numbers, you'll see that he's tended to improve over time. It's not as if he's had up and down inconsistent numbers. He's been trending upwards over his past 3 seasons at Iowa. He may never be much more than a backup catcher, but I don't think it's quite fair to say he doesn't belong in the majors when he's doing very well in AAA age 24.

 

As far as Theriot and Fontenot are concerned, I don't think anybody is saying that they are the answers to all the Cubs problems or that they're going to be superstars. I've said all along these guys are not prospects and not likely to be long-term solutions. I have been saying they're a darn site better than signing the likes of Neifi Perez, Tony Womack, Tomas Perez, Jose Macias, etc. to be utility men. They're young, cheap, decent defenders with decent patience, that probably will never hit .300 and never put up more than 5 HRs in a season, but they allow you to not spend millions on bench players.

 

They also happen to have better numbers than Izturis. When Izturis's OPS gets above Theriot's, then it's time to play him. Theriot is not a long-term solution. Far from it, but he's inexpensive and under the Cubs control for several years. If we're going to have a poor hitting SS, we may as well use somebody from our system who's making league minimum instead of paying the likes of Izturis 5M.

[jersey cubs fan]

They're young, cheap, decent defenders with decent patience, that probably will never hit .300 and never put up more than 5 HRs in a season, but they allow you to not spend millions on bench players.

 

I don't know man, Fontenot might be able to get 6 if he gets 350 at bats. If he gets the full-time 2B job, and 650 ABs, you might get 10-12.

[Amazing_Grace]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

We don't need him to be a savior. We need him to play good defense and provide average-above average offense for his position.

 

As far as upgrade, he obviously isn't offensively. But as far as a use of the team's resources he may be. We would be upgrading by a decent amount defensively, paying less than $1M to fill both catcher spots and getting much younger.

 

He won't have a 3-year stretch offensively like Barrett has had, but I think he's capable of putting up an .800 OPS in his best year(s) which combined with his defense and price tag, could make him a great value.

 

It could, if that were realistic, but besides this season, in which he has under 200 ABs, he has never put up an OPS of .800 in the minors. In fact, before this year, his highest OPS was .756 in AA last year. I just hope he can put up a decent .700 OPS, which is more than any of our other catchers are likely to do.

 

Now wait. He's been at Iowa since 2005. Did you not realize that or did you just forget to type the third A. On another note, his IsoD has been good to very good all three seasons that he has been at Iowa. He's had over a .350 OBP each year at Iowa, even the first when he hit just .253. Also, he had close to 300 ABs each season at Iowa, so it's safe to say he knows how to draw walks.

[Amazing_Grace]

They're young, cheap, decent defenders with decent patience, that probably will never hit .300 and never put up more than 5 HRs in a season, but they allow you to not spend millions on bench players.

 

I don't know man, Fontenot might be able to get 6 if he gets 350 at bats. If he gets the full-time 2B job, and 650 ABs, you might get 10-12.

 

Upon closer inspection, you're probably right. His SLG in the minors was usually in the mid .400s even before this season, so that would probably translate to 10 or so HR in a year.

[Sarcastic]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

We don't need him to be a savior. We need him to play good defense and provide average-above average offense for his position.

 

As far as upgrade, he obviously isn't offensively. But as far as a use of the team's resources he may be. We would be upgrading by a decent amount defensively, paying less than $1M to fill both catcher spots and getting much younger.

 

He won't have a 3-year stretch offensively like Barrett has had, but I think he's capable of putting up an .800 OPS in his best year(s) which combined with his defense and price tag, could make him a great value.

 

It could, if that were realistic, but besides this season, in which he has under 200 ABs, he has never put up an OPS of .800 in the minors. In fact, before this year, his highest OPS was .756 in AA last year. I just hope he can put up a decent .700 OPS, which is more than any of our other catchers are likely to do.

 

Now wait. He's been at Iowa since 2005. Did you not realize that or did you just forget to type the third A. On another note, his IsoD has been good to very good all three seasons that he has been at Iowa. He's had over a .350 OBP each year at Iowa, even the first when he hit just .253. Also, he had close to 300 ABs each season at Iowa, so it's safe to say he knows how to draw walks.

 

Sorry, I meant to say two years ago. He had a somewhat lower OPS in the low .700's last year in AAA. And I don't care what his IsoD is if his overall numbers are still mediocre. He hasn't shown much power or ability to hit for average until this season (under 200 ABs). Walks are not the end all and be all of offensive production. If his IsoD was so good it made up for the rest of his offensive numbers great, but it hasn't been.

[sunnydoo]

that the equally insane inclusion of Cliff Lee gets ignored.

 

Orlly?

 

He had one good year in 2005 and you think that makes him a world beater?

 

His numbers this year so far are way past his 2004 numbers in pure ugliness. I think we should trade for him immediately. Would love to have a guy on our staff that has a 5.46 ERA, avgs. less than 6 IP start, gives up more H than IP, an oppo sluggo of 515 and has a FIP of 5.86 (although his xFip is 5.65).

 

This guy should not be in a ML starting rotation. But sure sign me up today.

[sunnydoo]

That Al Reyes has been a bust w/the Rays.

 

Ya, i missed him on the list of the Rays to include. Didnt sort my list right, you are right for sure.

[hawkeyecub]

It would be. I guess what I'm really saying about Soto is that many people felt that trading Barrett for beans was worth it as long as they upgraded the position by bringing in Soto. I don't see Soto being an upgrade over Barrett. With luck, he may be able to be an average to above average catcher for a while, but he is, as you already said, not going to be a really long term solution at the catcher's position. It isn't so much that he doesn't belong in the majors as much as that he isn't a savior.

 

We don't need him to be a savior. We need him to play good defense and provide average-above average offense for his position.

 

As far as upgrade, he obviously isn't offensively. But as far as a use of the team's resources he may be. We would be upgrading by a decent amount defensively, paying less than $1M to fill both catcher spots and getting much younger.

 

He won't have a 3-year stretch offensively like Barrett has had, but I think he's capable of putting up an .800 OPS in his best year(s) which combined with his defense and price tag, could make him a great value.

 

It could, if that were realistic, but besides this season, in which he has under 200 ABs, he has never put up an OPS of .800 in the minors. In fact, before this year, his highest OPS was .756 in AA last year. I just hope he can put up a decent .700 OPS, which is more than any of our other catchers are likely to do.

 

His highest OPS was .756 in AA as a 21 year old in 332 at bats. That's a very solid season for a catcher who is young for the league.

Last year in 342 AB's he had a .739 OPS as a 23 year old. Again, as a catcher at that age, that's a solid year.

He's not going to keep up the pace he has this year, but a .952 OPS in 173 AB's isn't just a few hot weeks.

 

He's maintained steady progress and even his worst year of the last 3.5 wasn't bad considering he was 22 on his first trip to AAA. Also as has been mentioned, catchers tend to develop later on. He has had decent K/BB rates and the power has been coming.

 

Compare his path to guys like Pierzynski, Estrada and you'll see his production and pace hasn't been far off. Heck compare his minor league career to LaRue, Damian Miller, Bengie Molina and Ausmus who either had an .800 OPS or were within 15-20 points a few times.

 

Like I said I don't think he can do it consistently and won't guarantee that it will happen, but I think he is reasonably capable.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

that the equally insane inclusion of Cliff Lee gets ignored.

 

Orlly?

 

He had one good year in 2005 and you think that makes him a world beater?

 

His numbers this year so far are way past his 2004 numbers in pure ugliness. I think we should trade for him immediately. Would love to have a guy on our staff that has a 5.46 ERA, avgs. less than 6 IP start, gives up more H than IP, an oppo sluggo of 515 and has a FIP of 5.86 (although his xFip is 5.65).

 

This guy should not be in a ML starting rotation. But sure sign me up today.

 

Before this year the guy had 400+ innings of above average performance(105 ERA+).

 

You are wrong.