Lou sucks bandwagon

Drew Doughty · May 28, 2007

my biggest issue with lou today was taking out Hill after 66 pitches. I don't care if Ward gives you a better shot at scoring, going to the bullpen early in a close game is a bad idea. didn't he see that it as an advantage that Wolf was out early? He made it a battle of the bullpens and then used the worst guys possible.

It's like being in a shootout in hockey and sending out your fourth liners for your first three shots. Dumb.

so if I had to create a list of dumb things from Lou today:

1) Taking out Hill early
2) Taking out Wuertz after 1 12-pitch inning
3) Bringing in Eyre in a close game when he's not the last guy out of the 25 guys on the roster available.
4) Bringing in Howry instead of Guzman (worked out fine in the end)
5) Taking out Guzman with a 1-0 count and bringing in a pitcher with control issues
6) Using Marmol out of the bullpen to throw an IBB after Guzman had already thrown one ball.

not sure if he gave the bunt sign or the steal sign or not.
Wait, he took Hill out after just 66 pitches of shutout baseball? I'm still a fan of Sweet Lou, but what the hell?

We had a man on 3rd and 2 outs. We had to pinch hit for Hill.

No you don't. You still have to prevent runs. Hill does that better than our bullpen by about two miles. Plus it preserves your good BP arms for later in the game.

abuck1220 · May 28, 2007

my biggest issue with lou today was taking out Hill after 66 pitches. I don't care if Ward gives you a better shot at scoring, going to the bullpen early in a close game is a bad idea. didn't he see that it as an advantage that Wolf was out early? He made it a battle of the bullpens and then used the worst guys possible.

It's like being in a shootout in hockey and sending out your fourth liners for your first three shots. Dumb.

so if I had to create a list of dumb things from Lou today:

1) Taking out Hill early
2) Taking out Wuertz after 1 12-pitch inning
3) Bringing in Eyre in a close game when he's not the last guy out of the 25 guys on the roster available.
4) Bringing in Howry instead of Guzman (worked out fine in the end)
5) Taking out Guzman with a 1-0 count and bringing in a pitcher with control issues
6) Using Marmol out of the bullpen to throw an IBB after Guzman had already thrown one ball.

not sure if he gave the bunt sign or the steal sign or not.
Wait, he took Hill out after just 66 pitches of shutout baseball? I'm still a fan of Sweet Lou, but what the hell?

We had a man on 3rd and 2 outs. We had to pinch hit for Hill.

why?

Soul · May 28, 2007

#2 - not a 'mistake,' you can't simply lean on Wuertz for tons of innings because he's one of the few talented arms we have. He'll burn out before the all-star break

No, but you can throw more than one inning at a time. He was even out to start the inning, but Lou brought in Eyre after the LH PH had been announced. Lefties have a 1273 OPS against Eyre this year (before today), worse than his line against righties.

#3 - See #2. You can't do this. If Eyre can't pitch out of the bullpen, he needs to leave. If he can only pitch in blowout games, same deal. Either he is capable, or he needs to be gone. That's not a Lou mistake, it's a Hendry failure.

I understand that Hendry made a mistake, that doesn't mean Lou needs to use Eyre at all. Especially when we still have a lead in a 1-0 ball game.

#4 - Howry's been alright lately, and he's being counted on to be one of the major bullpen arms in the pen. This is not a mistake.

That wasn't as bad, but it's still not a good move. And Howry has been nowhere close to alright lately. He's allowed 10 ER in his last 6.1 IP if my counting is right.

#5 - Guzman had control issues too. Wuertz has had control issues, Dempster too. Lou could have called on me to pitch, but I don't think the umps would allow it. This bullpen sucks, period. Maybe Lou should do a voodoo dance before he visits the mound, hell I don't know.

Control issue is probably an understatement. Last year in 77 innings with the Cubs, he allowed 6.9 BB/9. He was brought in to walk the bases loaded so he absolutely could not make a mistake. Dempster was still available in the bullpen.

Actually no, you can't use Dempster on the road because he would need to close.

This idea that Lou should just not pitch bullpen guys because they suck. It's simply incorrect. I suppose in August when Wuertz's arm is blown out we'll be clamoring for a trade and, of course, to "fire Lou" because there are no bullpen options left. I certainly wish Wuertz & Guzman had cast iron arms. Unfortunately they don't.

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Soul · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

Drew Doughty · May 28, 2007

Actually no, you can't use Dempster on the road because he would need to close.

This idea that Lou should just not pitch bullpen guys because they suck. It's simply incorrect. I suppose in August when Wuertz's arm is blown out we'll be clamoring for a trade and, of course, to "fire Lou" because there are no bullpen options left. I certainly wish Wuertz & Guzman had cast iron arms. Unfortunately they don't.

Asking for two innings after Wuertz throws 12 pitches is too much to ask? He's pitched more than 1 inning 4 times this year. He pitched 2 full innings on back to back outings on April 15th and April 17th. He hasn't pitched 2 innings in one outing since then, but it's not like his arm can't handle it.

Transmogrified Tiger · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Mizzou · May 28, 2007

my biggest issue with lou today was taking out Hill after 66 pitches. I don't care if Ward gives you a better shot at scoring, going to the bullpen early in a close game is a bad idea. didn't he see that it as an advantage that Wolf was out early? He made it a battle of the bullpens and then used the worst guys possible.

It's like being in a shootout in hockey and sending out your fourth liners for your first three shots. Dumb.

so if I had to create a list of dumb things from Lou today:

1) Taking out Hill early
2) Taking out Wuertz after 1 12-pitch inning
3) Bringing in Eyre in a close game when he's not the last guy out of the 25 guys on the roster available.
4) Bringing in Howry instead of Guzman (worked out fine in the end)
5) Taking out Guzman with a 1-0 count and bringing in a pitcher with control issues
6) Using Marmol out of the bullpen to throw an IBB after Guzman had already thrown one ball.

not sure if he gave the bunt sign or the steal sign or not.
Wait, he took Hill out after just 66 pitches of shutout baseball? I'm still a fan of Sweet Lou, but what the hell?

We had a man on 3rd and 2 outs. We had to pinch hit for Hill.

Maybe if we were trailing and it were the 7th inning or later. Not in a tie game though. That's nuts.

Soul · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Yeah, well I've seen these scenarios play out on this and other message boards for too many years. It's pretty much always the same story. Always ends up with the board members geniuses and the managers idiots. How convenient.

Flames24Rulz · May 28, 2007

my biggest issue with lou today was taking out Hill after 66 pitches. I don't care if Ward gives you a better shot at scoring, going to the bullpen early in a close game is a bad idea. didn't he see that it as an advantage that Wolf was out early? He made it a battle of the bullpens and then used the worst guys possible.

It's like being in a shootout in hockey and sending out your fourth liners for your first three shots. Dumb.

so if I had to create a list of dumb things from Lou today:

1) Taking out Hill early
2) Taking out Wuertz after 1 12-pitch inning
3) Bringing in Eyre in a close game when he's not the last guy out of the 25 guys on the roster available.
4) Bringing in Howry instead of Guzman (worked out fine in the end)
5) Taking out Guzman with a 1-0 count and bringing in a pitcher with control issues
6) Using Marmol out of the bullpen to throw an IBB after Guzman had already thrown one ball.

not sure if he gave the bunt sign or the steal sign or not.
Wait, he took Hill out after just 66 pitches of shutout baseball? I'm still a fan of Sweet Lou, but what the hell?

We had a man on 3rd and 2 outs. We had to pinch hit for Hill.
Maybe if we were trailing and it were the 7th inning or later. Not in a tie game though. That's nuts.

With 1 out, I'd consider PH'ing for him. Two outs, no way. That was a stupid move, especially seeing how he only threw 66 pitches. He was real efficient today.

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Yeah, well I've seen these scenarios play out on this and other message boards for too many years. It's pretty much always the same story. Always ends up with the board members geniuses and the managers idiots. How convenient.

Nah Lou is doing plenty of things to justify him being an idiot. But you try winning games right now and come July or Aug then you see how your bp is, if their arms are tired then you see what you have in the minors or what teams are trading parts of their bullpen. If we dont start winning these games the tiredness of our bp isnt going to matter in August. Hell in any other year besides this year, August wouldnt matter right now cause of Lous terrible bullpen use, and decision making. Lou and the Cubs are just extremely lucky this division blows.

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

One question answered-Barrett stealing 3rd was all him, not Piniella at all:

"The at-bat where [starter Randy Wolf] pitched to Angel Pagan, he threw four breaking balls," Barrett said. "I thought I'd gotten the sign, I thought I'd seen the sign they were going with. Cesar Izturis is hitting, and I gambled there. I thought I had the sign at second base that he was going to throw a curveball. He threw a fastball in and nailed me.

"Bottom line is, I overthought the whole process," Barrett said. "I really should let Lou make those decisions and not try to do too much."

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070526&content_id=1987957&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

Stupid just stupid. Barret is not a very bright baseball guy.

Soul · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Yeah, well I've seen these scenarios play out on this and other message boards for too many years. It's pretty much always the same story. Always ends up with the board members geniuses and the managers idiots. How convenient.

Nah Lou is doing plenty of things to justify him being an idiot. But you try winning games right now and come July or Aug then you see how your bp is, if their arms are tired then you see what you have in the minors or what teams are trading parts of their bullpen. If we dont start winning these games the tiredness of our bp isnt going to matter in August. Hell in any other year besides this year, August wouldnt matter right now cause of Lous terrible bullpen use, and decision making. Lou and the Cubs are just extremely lucky this division blows.

I'm not sure I would characterize it as luck, when anyone can look at the standings and see the division blows. You manage the season as it is, with the conditions that are in place for that season.

What you are describing is terribly short-term management, and if I may say so, myopic. I'm glad Lou isn't doing that. Revamping an entire bullpen, or even a significant part of it, is hard enough when you have an entire offseason, to say nothing of trying to do it out of desperation mid-stream because you blew out your best arms.

Drew Doughty · May 28, 2007

my biggest issue with lou today was taking out Hill after 66 pitches. I don't care if Ward gives you a better shot at scoring, going to the bullpen early in a close game is a bad idea. didn't he see that it as an advantage that Wolf was out early? He made it a battle of the bullpens and then used the worst guys possible.

It's like being in a shootout in hockey and sending out your fourth liners for your first three shots. Dumb.

so if I had to create a list of dumb things from Lou today:

1) Taking out Hill early
2) Taking out Wuertz after 1 12-pitch inning
3) Bringing in Eyre in a close game when he's not the last guy out of the 25 guys on the roster available.
4) Bringing in Howry instead of Guzman (worked out fine in the end)
5) Taking out Guzman with a 1-0 count and bringing in a pitcher with control issues
6) Using Marmol out of the bullpen to throw an IBB after Guzman had already thrown one ball.

not sure if he gave the bunt sign or the steal sign or not.
Wait, he took Hill out after just 66 pitches of shutout baseball? I'm still a fan of Sweet Lou, but what the hell?

We had a man on 3rd and 2 outs. We had to pinch hit for Hill.
Maybe if we were trailing and it were the 7th inning or later. Not in a tie game though. That's nuts.

With 1 out, I'd consider PH'ing for him. Two outs, no way. That was a stupid move, especially seeing how he only threw 66 pitches. He was real efficient today.

That's my issue with it. When was the last time the Cubs had a starting pitcher tossing a shutout with fewer than 70 pitches threw 6 innings? Why in the world would you waste a start like that? They just don't happen very often.

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Yeah, well I've seen these scenarios play out on this and other message boards for too many years. It's pretty much always the same story. Always ends up with the board members geniuses and the managers idiots. How convenient.

Nah Lou is doing plenty of things to justify him being an idiot. But you try winning games right now and come July or Aug then you see how your bp is, if their arms are tired then you see what you have in the minors or what teams are trading parts of their bullpen. If we dont start winning these games the tiredness of our bp isnt going to matter in August. Hell in any other year besides this year, August wouldnt matter right now cause of Lous terrible bullpen use, and decision making. Lou and the Cubs are just extremely lucky this division blows.

I'm not sure I would characterize it as luck, when anyone can look at the standings and see the division blows. You manage the season as it is, with the conditions that are in place for that season.

What you are describing is terribly short-term management, and if I may say so, myopic. I'm glad Lou isn't doing that. Revamping an entire bullpen, or even a significant part of it, is hard enough when you have an entire offseason, to say nothing of trying to do it out of desperation mid-stream because you blew out your best arms.

You guys keep talking about burning our our bullpen by leaving Wuertz in there. The guy had thown 12 damn pitches today and 31 all week. How is leaving him in burning him out? Give me a break keep making your excuses for Lou but our bullpen for the week had not been worked very hard at all. Now if any of those stats show that putting somebody else into the game besides Eyre would be burning them out, well then you are crazy. Thanks Fred for these stats

Sun Sat Fri Thur Wed Tue Mon Totals

27 May 26 May 25 May 24 May 23 May 22 May 21 May

@ L.A. @ L.A. @ L.A. @ S.D. @ S.D. @ S.D. no game

pitcher IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit IP Pit

Dempster 1.0 7 1.0 7 0.3 4 2.3 18

Eyre 0.0 3 0.0 3

Howry 1.0 13 0.0 12 1.0 12 2.0 37

Ohman 0.3 4 0.0 8 0.3 2 0.7 14

Wuertz 1.0 12 1.0 6 0.7 13 2.7 31

Cherry

Marmol 0.0 8 1.7 17 1.7 25

Guzman 2.0 34 1.0 10 1.7 21 4.7 65

Totals 4.0 70 1.3 11 3.7 53 2.0 19 1.0 15 2.0 25 14.0 193

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

Sorry if you cant read those stats very well they are organized better in tomorrows game thread.

Fred Hornkohl · May 28, 2007

Sorry if you cant read those stats very well they are organized better in tomorrows game thread.

              Sun        Sat        Fri        Thur       Wed        Tue        Mon           Totals
             27 May     26 May     25 May     24 May     23 May     22 May     21 May
             @ L.A.     @ L.A.     @ L.A.     @ S.D.     @ S.D.     @ S.D.     no game 
pitcher        IP Pit     IP Pit     IP Pit     IP Pit     IP Pit     IP Pit     IP Pit        IP Pit

Dempster                 1.0   7               1.0   7               0.3   4                  2.3  18
Eyre          0.0   3                                                                         0.0   3
Howry         1.0  13               0.0  12    1.0  12                                        2.0  37
Ohman                    0.3   4    0.0   8               0.3   2                             0.7  14
Wuertz        1.0  12               1.0   6               0.7  13                             2.7  31
Cherry                                                                                               
Marmol        0.0   8               1.7  17                                                   1.7  25
Guzman        2.0  34               1.0  10                          1.7  21                  4.7  65


Totals        4.0  70    1.3  11    3.7  53    2.0  19    1.0  15    2.0  25                 14.0 193

Kevin... when you quote those kinds of tables, you gotta copy the [ code ] tags too.

Keener98 · May 28, 2007

Thanks Fred, appreciate it.

NCCubFan · May 28, 2007

#3 - See #2. You can't do this. If Eyre can't pitch out of the bullpen, he needs to leave. If he can only pitch in blowout games, same deal. Either he is capable, or he needs to be gone. That's not a Lou mistake, it's a Hendry failure.

Eyre being on the roster is a Hendry failure. Eyre pitching in a one-run game is a Piniella failure.

NCCubFan · May 28, 2007

I'm on board. Using Eyre as he did today is unforgiveable. Eyre has proven all year long that he stinks; there is absolutely zero excuse for Lou using Eyre with a one-run lead.

Agreed. But I still blame the offense for not showing up yet again today...

I do too. I didn't mean that Eyre and Lou get all the blame; there was plenty to go around. But Eyre's failure could be seen from a mile away because he's been putrid all year.

DivineBovine · May 28, 2007

It's hard to fault strategic decisions for the complete ineptitude by the Cubs. I can maybe fault Lou because the team is absolutely playing like a bunch of losers and he's the manager, but he's not the guy botching stupid plays, who can't get a clutch hit, who can't get a guy out in extra innings.

This is getting more absurd every day. They shouldn't even play extra innings anymore, they should just forfeit the game after the 9th and stop wasting everyone's time.

Bunch of pathetic losers.

Transmogrified Tiger · May 28, 2007

Worry about August when we get to August. If we keep throwing Eyre and Howry out there in close games, August wont mean jack

Yeah sure. You'll care about it when it comes. That's when you would be calling Lou a moron for burning out the BP arms.

Sorry, seen this act too many times before.

It's really easy to make an argument when you are making up what the opinion is of the people you're arguing against.

Yeah, well I've seen these scenarios play out on this and other message boards for too many years. It's pretty much always the same story. Always ends up with the board members geniuses and the managers idiots. How convenient.

I've gotta say, I've seen vague groups of people ragged on here before, but never for something that they have yet to do. Kudos.

MPC · May 28, 2007

One question answered-Barrett stealing 3rd was all him, not Piniella at all:

"The at-bat where [starter Randy Wolf] pitched to Angel Pagan, he threw four breaking balls," Barrett said. "I thought I'd gotten the sign, I thought I'd seen the sign they were going with. Cesar Izturis is hitting, and I gambled there. I thought I had the sign at second base that he was going to throw a curveball. He threw a fastball in and nailed me.

"Bottom line is, I overthought the whole process," Barrett said. "I really should let Lou make those decisions and not try to do too much."

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070526&content_id=1987957&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

Stupid just stupid. Barret is not a very bright baseball guy.

so...did he see the sign or did he go on his own? he's saying both.

CUBZ99 · May 28, 2007

One question answered-Barrett stealing 3rd was all him, not Piniella at all:

"The at-bat where [starter Randy Wolf] pitched to Angel Pagan, he threw four breaking balls," Barrett said. "I thought I'd gotten the sign, I thought I'd seen the sign they were going with. Cesar Izturis is hitting, and I gambled there. I thought I had the sign at second base that he was going to throw a curveball. He threw a fastball in and nailed me.

"Bottom line is, I overthought the whole process," Barrett said. "I really should let Lou make those decisions and not try to do too much."

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070526&content_id=1987957&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

Stupid just stupid. Barret is not a very bright baseball guy.

so...did he see the sign or did he go on his own? he's saying both.

He was saying he saw the sign from the catcher. (So he was positive another breaking ball was coming.) ](*,)

Barrett should not be attempting to steal third base in any game, let alone a close one.

cubfan1955 · May 28, 2007

One question answered-Barrett stealing 3rd was all him, not Piniella at all:

"The at-bat where [starter Randy Wolf] pitched to Angel Pagan, he threw four breaking balls," Barrett said. "I thought I'd gotten the sign, I thought I'd seen the sign they were going with. Cesar Izturis is hitting, and I gambled there. I thought I had the sign at second base that he was going to throw a curveball. He threw a fastball in and nailed me.

"Bottom line is, I overthought the whole process," Barrett said. "I really should let Lou make those decisions and not try to do too much."

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070526&content_id=1987957&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

Stupid just stupid. Barret is not a very bright baseball guy.

so...did he see the sign or did he go on his own? he's saying both.

He was saying he saw the sign from the catcher. (So he was positive another breaking ball was coming.) ](*,)

Barrett should not be attempting to steal third base in any game, let alone a close one.

Yeah, attempting to steal 3rd base with two outs is stupid even if the pitchers walks back to 2nd base and tells Barrett he's going to throw a changeup in the dirt.

Lou sucks bandwagon

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