Marquis can have #21

[CubbieSouthpaw]

I am certain I will be ridiculed for asking this, but do you guys believe that Sammy's "indiscretions" should ever have any consequences? I feel like most of what I read here concerning the relationship between Sammy and the Cubs villifies the organization and deifies Sammy.

 

A better question would be: Are Sammy's "indiscretions" enough to ignore what he brought to Chicago, the Cubs, and the game of baseball?

 

Again, I have my problems with Sammy, but I also have alot of GREAT memories. I have more great memories of Sammy then I do bad memories.

 

He's a HOF and he's a Cub. The Cub organization should cherish that relationship, not tarnish it. I know it was bad in the end between them, but it should be a relationship that is repaired.

 

First off, I don't believe the Cubs tarnished the relationship. Sammy did.

Second of all what did Sammy bring to Chicago? Yes, it was fun to watch him hit all those HR's. Although a ton of them were either solo's or when the game was as much as over. These aren't just my statements on this board but several others here.

What else did he accomplish?

A couple of playoff apprearances and ALOT of losing seasons? Yes, he wasn't to blame for those losing seasons. But he also wasn't a difference maker to stop those losing seasons.

Walked out on the team because he wasn't happy?

Articles I've been reading over the last few months are putting Big Macs chances as a HOF'er. Where does Sammy fall into a situation where he's an automatic for the hall?

Hey, I'm not looking to upset anyone.

I was as big a fan of his as anyone. But when it came down to it he wasn't able to seal the deal when it was needed the most.

 

IF he gets into the hall for some reason then I believe the Cubs will retire his number as they have all the others.

 

Everyone one have a Merry Christmas

[Butterscup1679666578]

I am certain I will be ridiculed for asking this, but do you guys believe that Sammy's "indiscretions" should ever have any consequences? I feel like most of what I read here concerning the relationship between Sammy and the Cubs villifies the organization and deifies Sammy.

 

A better question would be: Are Sammy's "indiscretions" enough to ignore what he brought to Chicago, the Cubs, and the game of baseball?

 

Again, I have my problems with Sammy, but I also have alot of GREAT memories. I have more great memories of Sammy then I do bad memories.

 

He's a HOF and he's a Cub. The Cub organization should cherish that relationship, not tarnish it. I know it was bad in the end between them, but it should be a relationship that is repaired.

 

First off, I don't believe the Cubs tarnished the relationship. Sammy did.

Second of all what did Sammy bring to Chicago? Yes, it was fun to watch him hit all those HR's. Although a ton of them were either solo's or when the game was as much as over. These aren't just my statements on this board but several others here.

What else did he accomplish?

A couple of playoff apprearances and ALOT of losing seasons? Yes, he wasn't to blame for those losing seasons. But he also wasn't a difference maker to stop those losing seasons.

Walked out on the team because he wasn't happy?

Articles I've been reading over the last few months are putting Big Macs chances as a HOF'er. Where does Sammy fall into a situation where he's an automatic for the hall?

Hey, I'm not looking to upset anyone.

I was as big a fan of his as anyone. But when it came down to it he wasn't able to seal the deal when it was needed the most.

 

IF he gets into the hall for some reason then I believe the Cubs will retire his number as they have all the others.

 

Everyone one have a Merry Christmas

 

This post is complete blasphemy. If hitting "home runs that usually didn't matter" is the basis of your opinion on Sosa, then you could say the same thing about Banks, Sandberg, and Williams. They weren't difference makers to stop losing seasons either. Sosa revived the city after MJ retired and the Bulls started sucking again. He deserves to have his number flying above Wrigley and until it officially is, it deserves to be unofficially retired.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Is a number really that big a deal?

 

Yes.

 

No, it's not. If a player is playing for the number/name on the back of the jersey, then he sure as heck isn't playing for the name on the front of the jersey. (Regardless of the team on the fron tof the jersey benefitting from said player's "motives".)

 

Look, Bobby Ayala, Jon Lieber, Mark Guthrie (among others) ALL wore 31, between Maddux's stints in Chicago, nobody put up a fuss, considering the history made by Jenkins wearing the number. So, why are people putting up a fuss over the #21?

 

The number issue is NO ISSUE. If Marquis wants to wear 21, so be it. The number isn't retired, the Cubs have no plans to retire(imo, rightfully so, until it's proven what Sosa did was legit, and NOT created), nobody else wants the number, what's the big deal? Would we be having this debate, if the player was say less bad then Marquis?

 

Go ahead, Marquis wear the number.

[Abe Frohman]

I don't know, Avenger. I agree with you, but I also disagree. Let him wear #21 - it is not yet a retired number. The special thing about retired numbers is that the player that the number represents is HONORED by not allowing another player to wear that number.

 

That's just the way it goes. Until those numbers are retired, they are fair game. We still feel funny, but that is beside the point.

 

I do think the number of a star player is significant, because it becomes a symbol of that players accomplishments/contributions to the team. Tell me you don't think of Michael Jordan or Ryne Sandberg when you see #23, or Babe Ruth/#3, etc.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I don't know, Avenger. I agree with you, but I also disagree. Let him wear #21 - it is not yet a retired number. The special thing about retired numbers is that the player that the number represents is HONORED by not allowing another player to wear that number.

 

That's just the way it goes. Until those numbers are retired, they are fair game. We still feel funny, but that is beside the point.

 

I do think the number of a star player is significant, because it becomes a symbol of that players accomplishments/contributions to the team. Tell me you don't think of Michael Jordan or Ryne Sandberg when you see #23, or Babe Ruth/#3, etc.

 

First: If you need a number to remember certain players and their accomplishments, then you prolly didn't notice the accomplishments as they are being played out. I know what you are saying, but I believe players accomplishments are measured by what he does on the field/rink/court and not by the numbers he wears. The numbers, to me, is nothing more then a self-promotion gimmick, no better then say a "wrestling gimmick." You remember the player, not the number.

 

Second: Did you already forget Devin "Mr. Bear 23" Hester?

[erik316wttn]

That's insane.

 

No one should ever wear #21 again, ever. Even if the Cubs want to publicly continue to stick it to the one of the 2 best players in franchise history, they should at the least informally retire that number.

 

McDonough and whoever else at the Tribune Co. who had input in this decision ought to be ashamed of themselves. They'll likely trip all over themselves to honor a pitcher who spend the vast majority of his HOF career with another team by retiring #31, but won't show respect to Sosa.

 

And Sammy put 10x more butts in the seats than Maddux ever did.

[CubinNY]

I'm not much into #s myself. If I played and was great or something I'd be honored if someone wanted to wear the same number as me.

 

However, not giving out # is a time honored tradition in sports. Regardless of Sammy's behavior, giving the likes of Jason Marquis #21 says much more about the Cubs than it does Sosa.

 

They built up Sammy, they let Sammy play his boom box, they gave him special treatment. Then when he's no longer useful they destroy him in the media.

 

The Cubs suck and they have no class.

[FergieJ31]

And Sammy put 10x more butts in the seats than Maddux ever did.

 

Is that what the criteria is now, how many butts we put in seats? If that were the case #17 should never have been worn after Grace considering how many Lincoln Park Trixies he attracted to the park (or for that matter should we retire Kyle's # too?) For the record I think #31 should have been retired - obviously I'm biased :wink:

 

But it's no big deal really ... I'm just outraged the Cubs signed this guy for the money/years they did. I couldn't care less what number he wears. Think of it this way: once again when #21 is on the field for the Cubs, a lot of balls will be flying out of the park.

[cheapseats]

If Marquis wears the number, it'll be just one more reason to boo him vociferously.

[Southpaw191679666239]

Look, Bobby Ayala, Jon Lieber, Mark Guthrie (among others) ALL wore 31

 

(snip)

 

Let's not forget the BEST #31 in the Maddux-less years... KEVIN FOSTER! I was rooting for that kid. Don't ask why.

[CuseCubFan69]

Look, Bobby Ayala, Jon Lieber, Mark Guthrie (among others) ALL wore 31

 

(snip)

 

Let's not forget the BEST #31 in the Maddux-less years... KEVIN FOSTER! I was rooting for that kid. Don't ask why.

 

I moved Foster to the closer role in Strat-O-Matic years ago and he was dominate. I really think that was his true role.

[UMFan83]

Look, Bobby Ayala, Jon Lieber, Mark Guthrie (among others) ALL wore 31

 

(snip)

 

Let's not forget the BEST #31 in the Maddux-less years... KEVIN FOSTER! I was rooting for that kid. Don't ask why.

 

Yeah but when Maddux left the Cubs, he had not already been a HOFer. I guess then you could argue that Maddux shouldn't have his number retired as a Cub, since he didn't do much on his second stay to justify. But my guess is that the Cubs will retire his number because 'its the right thing to do'

[Derwood]

I think Bobby Hill and John Mabry wearing #17 is worse

[Coach C]

Well, how about we give him number 60, in reference to his ERA. *shrug*

[UMFan83]

If Mabry can wear #17, and several players can wear #8, I don't see why it is a problem for someone to wear #21. Even #31 has been worn.

 

I don't like it, but until the Cubs honor a player by retiring their number, there should be no qualms about it being used by others.

 

But 8, 17, 21, and 31 should be put in the closet if I had my way.

 

Andre Dawson and Mark Grace were great players for the Cubs, but they do not even come close to deserving Sammy Sosa status in terms of retired numbers. Don't forget that at the present time, the Cubs only have 4 numbers retired (Banks, Williams, Santo, Sandberg). It's a pretty exclusive club. I mean if we are going to retire Grace's number, we might as well retire Gabby Hartnett, Hack Wilson and other Cubs of yesteryear that actually led the team to WS appearence.

[Garwilly]

If Mabry can wear #17, and several players can wear #8, I don't see why it is a problem for someone to wear #21. Even #31 has been worn.

 

I don't like it, but until the Cubs honor a player by retiring their number, there should be no qualms about it being used by others.

 

But 8, 17, 21, and 31 should be put in the closet if I had my way.

 

Andre Dawson and Mark Grace were great players for the Cubs, but they do not even come close to deserving Sammy Sosa status in terms of retired numbers. Don't forget that at the present time, the Cubs only have 4 numbers retired (Banks, Williams, Santo, Sandberg). It's a pretty exclusive club. I mean if we are going to retire Grace's number, we might as well retire Gabby Hartnett, Hack Wilson and other Cubs of yesteryear that actually led the team to WS appearence.

 

I don't think Wilson wore a number, but your point stands.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think Bobby Hill and John Mabry wearing #17 is worse

 

Reasons why we should honor that douchebag over Sammy?

[UMFan83]

To look at it a different way, lets settle this with numbers:

 

Jason Marquis vs.

 

                  PA  AB  H  2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   OPS
Sammy Sosa        15  12   4  1  0  0   1   3   2  .333  .467  .417  .884

 

Sosa wins

[FergieJ31]

To look at it a different way, lets settle this with numbers:

 

Jason Marquis vs.

 

                  PA  AB  H  2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   OPS
Sammy Sosa        15  12   4  1  0  0   1   3   2  .333  .467  .417  .884

 

Sosa wins

 

No dingers in 15 PA? Marquis pwns Sammy, relatively speaking :wink:

[Derwood]

I think Bobby Hill and John Mabry wearing #17 is worse

 

Reasons why we should honor that douchebag over Sammy?

 

i would argue that Hill and Mabry are lamer players in their careers than Marquis. I know some don't like Grace, but despite his recent anti-Cubs sentiments, I loved him as a player and thought of him just as fondly as Sosa during his Cubs career. Plus, Grace was rather unceremoniously let go from Chicago as well.

[Dirt Dog Sparly]

Please people. It is a set up for Marquis to say;" no, #21 means something to Chicago let me pick another. " Because as the good Lord knows he is going to need all the good will he can get pitching for us.

 

Secondly I dont think Sosa is a first ballot HOF player and, to me, a first balloter is the only lock. Sosa like Mac has to many questions floating around them. Anyway the HOF is a joke until they install Santo.

[Derwood]

Please people. It is a set up for Marquis to say;" no, #21 means something to Chicago let me pick another. " Because as the good Lord knows he is going to need all the good will he can get pitching for us.

 

Secondly I dont think Sosa is a first ballot HOF player and, to me, a first balloter is the only lock. Sosa like Mac has to many questions floating around them. Anyway the HOF is a joke until they install Santo.

 

I disagree with that last part, but anywho....

 

The Cubs are notoriously stingy about retiring numbers (just 4 in 100+ years) and I doubt #21 is run up the pole until/unless Sosa is in the HoF. Santo's wouldn't even be there if they didn't think he might pass on before getting the call from Cooperstown

[baseball7897]

http://turntwo.mlblogs.com/photos/cards_vs_pads/jason_marquis_practice_swings_as_pinch_h.JPG

[Mizzou]

Marquis is a huge douche bag if he chooses to wear number 21. The Cubs are douche bags for allowing Marquis the choice.

[Derwood]

Marquis is a huge douche bag if he chooses to wear number 21. The Cubs are douche bags for allowing Marquis the choice.

 

I completely, completely disagree. Marquis had #21 in St. Louis, the number isn't retired, and Sosa hasn't been on the team for a few years. If Sosa had died or something, then yes, that's fine, but I think the Cubs would be douchebags if they made him change his number because it was worn by a player a few years ago