SI and ESPN report Matsuzaka signs for 6/52

[CuseCubFan69]

And if MLB finds that Boston did not negotiate in "Good faith" with Boras/Mats, then they would allow the 2nd highest bid to negotiate with Mats. Personally, if MLB does find that Boston only made the bid to keep Mats away from NYY(as much as I dislke the Yanks), then baseball should santioned Boston, by banning Boston from bidding on a Japanese import for atleast 3 yrs. Boston has to sign Mats, or prove they bid on him, not out of bitterness towards NYY, but because he was an upgrade over what they got.

 

I think finding the Red Sox didn't "negotiate in good faith" would be hard to prove. Boras has a history of wanting outrageous sums for his clients and the Red Sox have already ponied up $51 million to negotiate. If the reports of offering $8 million for five years are true, the total impact on the Red Sox budget could be amortized at $12 per year. Financially, that seems like negotiating in good faith to me.

 

They bid on an unknown product in the MLB and shouldn't be expected to shell out $16-$18 million per year above the posting fee simply because some agent says so.

 

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

 

I don't see how anybody could justify claiming the player would be getting punished in this scenario. The fact is he is not a free agent. Any claims that he should get more based on the current free agent pitching market are absolutely without merit. He isn't a free agent. He is owed nothing. He deserves nothing. He needs to come down on his price or go back to Japan making comparitively nothing.

 

Free agents are making lots of money. He is not a free agent. He knew the rules going in.

[CuseCubFan69]

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

 

I don't see how anybody could justify claiming the player would be getting punished in this scenario. The fact is he is not a free agent. Any claims that he should get more based on the current free agent pitching market are absolutely without merit. He isn't a free agent. He is owed nothing. He deserves nothing. He needs to come down on his price or go back to Japan making comparitively nothing.

 

Free agents are making lots of money. He is not a free agent. He knew the rules going in.

 

As did Boston when they bid 51 for him. He has choices unlike an arby guy.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

 

I don't see how anybody could justify claiming the player would be getting punished in this scenario. The fact is he is not a free agent. Any claims that he should get more based on the current free agent pitching market are absolutely without merit. He isn't a free agent. He is owed nothing. He deserves nothing. He needs to come down on his price or go back to Japan making comparitively nothing.

 

Free agents are making lots of money. He is not a free agent. He knew the rules going in.

 

As did Boston when they bid 51 for him. He has choices unlike an arby guy.

 

Yes, and his choice is to make a lot of money in Boston for the next few years or make a lot less in Japan.

 

Arbitration always have the choice of not playing, but that's not a smart choice either.

[craig]

I haven't followed this whole thread.

 

But it seems to me that Boras is working on Seibu as much or more than Boston. I can't find the quotes, but IIRC Boras has made two public quotes to that effect within the last week. One was something about how Seibu could make a gift or something to Mats. The other was to the effect that there were three parties involved and all three needed to be satisfied.

 

I'm sure he's trying to squirrel more cash out of Boston. But, maybe Boston holds at $40/5, which would make their outlay $55+40/5, around $18 per year. That's a pretty serious bid on their part. And, Boras doesn't want Mats to come home with "only" $40/5. Why should he? If Boston is willing to lay out $91/5, that reflects what Mats's market value is. Why settle for only $40 when a team thinks you're worth $91? Maybe he's got no choice, and $40/5 is lots better than whatever he'd get in Japan. So, maybe he'll have to take whatever he gets. But, maybe not?

 

If deal goes down, Seibu hauls in $51. Well, that's a killing for them. But, if deal doesn't go down, Seibu hauls in...... $0.00. That is not a killing. $21 isn't as good as $51, that's for sure.... but it's still $21 better than $0.00. Why not give Matz a "gift" of $30. $30 from Seibu plus $40/5 from Boston and Mats is getting $70/5.

 

Maybe not what Boston values him at, if they were willing to spend $91/5, but given the circumstances it works out pretty well for Boras.

*Boston pays $91/5. Stiff, but you know, pitching costs.

*Boras/Mats get $70/5. Not near his market value of $91/5, but close enough to make it worthwhile.

*Seibu gets $51-$30 - $21 to keep. Not nearly as sweet at $51, but, well, close enough. At least, a lot closer than $0.00.

 

I think Boras is working on Seibu as much or more than he is on Boston.

 

Is that contrary to the principle of how these posting things are supposed to work? Well, perhaps so.

 

But, Boras is a clever dude. I assume he's come up with some sort of mechanism by which Seibu will be able to transmit some large chunks of money to Mats within the constraints of whatever laws apply, whether those be US, Japanese, or mlb laws. Maybe he's just bluffing Seibu, maybe they won't flinch, and maybe he'll settle for $40/5 or whatever Boston's current offer is.

 

We'll maybe never know, other than whether he signs or not. If he does, we'll never know if or how much value Seibu "gifted" back to him to make this work out.

Edited December 11, 2006 by craig

[CuseCubFan69]

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

 

I don't see how anybody could justify claiming the player would be getting punished in this scenario. The fact is he is not a free agent. Any claims that he should get more based on the current free agent pitching market are absolutely without merit. He isn't a free agent. He is owed nothing. He deserves nothing. He needs to come down on his price or go back to Japan making comparitively nothing.

 

Free agents are making lots of money. He is not a free agent. He knew the rules going in.

 

As did Boston when they bid 51 for him. He has choices unlike an arby guy.

 

Yes, and his choice is to make a lot of money in Boston for the next few years or make a lot less in Japan.

 

Arbitration always have the choice of not playing, but that's not a smart choice either.

 

Boston knew he had Boras for an agent before they bid and should have realized that he'd want a big deal. IMO they have to pony up to at least 12 or they did this to stop the Yanks. If he signs for 5/40 he loses money. He could go back and make 6 and then get 5/65 at the least as a free agent.

[goonys evil twin]

oston knew he had Boras for an agent before they bid and should have realized that he'd want a big deal. IMO they have to pony up to at least 12 or they did this to stop the Yanks. If he signs for 5/40 he loses money. He could go back and make 6 and then get 5/65 at the least as a free agent.

 

I really don't see how this makes any sense at all. There is nobody else bidding for his services, yet, because he hired Boras, they have to pay 12.

 

If they go 5/50, it would be asinine to claim they did this just to stop the Yanks. He's not going to be a free agent for 2 years. He's not losing money. Non free agents with no MLB service time are guaranteed nothing but the major league minimum, if they come to the majors.

[CubColtPacer]

I don't understand why the player should be punished for the amount the Red Sox bid? If they bid 80 million does that mean he should sign for 5? IMO he should get at least 12.

 

I don't see how anybody could justify claiming the player would be getting punished in this scenario. The fact is he is not a free agent. Any claims that he should get more based on the current free agent pitching market are absolutely without merit. He isn't a free agent. He is owed nothing. He deserves nothing. He needs to come down on his price or go back to Japan making comparitively nothing.

 

Free agents are making lots of money. He is not a free agent. He knew the rules going in.

 

As did Boston when they bid 51 for him. He has choices unlike an arby guy.

 

Yes, and his choice is to make a lot of money in Boston for the next few years or make a lot less in Japan.

 

Arbitration always have the choice of not playing, but that's not a smart choice either.

 

Boston knew he had Boras for an agent before they bid and should have realized that he'd want a big deal. IMO they have to pony up to at least 12 or they did this to stop the Yanks. If he signs for 5/40 he loses money. He could go back and make 6 and then get 5/65 at the least as a free agent.

 

The problem with that line of thinking is-he only made 3 in Japan last year, so I'm not sure how he's going to get a raise all the way to 6.

 

Second-who says his contract will be any higher next year when he gets posted again? The next team may do the same thing for him, expecially if the market deflates again just a little bit.

 

So let's say Daisuke gets Seibu to raise his salary to 5 per year, and then signs a 5/65 deal after 2008. He will make 75 in 7 years, and he'd probably make 65 in 7 years here (5/40 plus the start of a new deal after those 5 years are up). For a guy who's been desperate to go to the U.S. for years, is he really going to turn down a chance over a possible 10 million dollars in 7 years? I'm saying possible because if he doesn't pitch well 1 of the next 2 years, he might not even get 5/65 after 2008. I just cannot see how that would make sense for him.

[CuseCubFan69]

Good points gentlemen but my money is on Boras.

[radarluv1]

i wonder what steinbrenner would do if he caught wind of such a kickback. probably go ape. i really want this stupid posting system to blow up in seligs face. its just asinine.

another thing to consider: boston made that bid a few weeks before average pitchers were getting 4/40. before this offseason's lunacy 4/28 for a guy who hadnt pitched an MLB inning would've seemed pretty generous.

[Mephistopheles]

ill be damned if i am going to read it this is posted, but apparently gammons is reporting that boras is demanding 18-20 million on espn insider. I dont have the service, but thats what someone told me.

[E.J.]

Rotoworld:

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka-S-Red Sox Dec. 11 - 10:26 pm et

 

 

MLB has no intention of letting agent Scott Boras try to buy Daisuke Matsuzaka's freedom from the Seibu Lions should negotiations with the Red Sox fail.

There's been some speculation that Boras would help Matsuzaka come up with a sufficient total to pay off the Lions. "The Commissioner’s office would not recognize that free agency, and the Japanese commissioner’s office is in agreement with us," said Lou Melendez, the vice president for international operations for MLB. If Matsuzaka declines to take Boston's offer, Boras could attempt to legally challenge the posting system. While he could build quite a case, even a successful challenge might not get Matsuzaka to the majors any sooner.

Source: New York Times

 

Boras trying to pay for Matsuzaka's "freedom". This is getting funnier and funnier every day.

[cbbryan]

Update from Rotoworld:

 

In a conference call Monday night, Red Sox GM Theo Epstein said the he's prepared to make a "record" offer to Daisuke Matsuzaka on Tuesday.

 

By record, it's taken to mean that it'll be the largest offer ever made to a player with no major league experience. Epstein and owner John Henry are among the members of the Red Sox to make the trip to Los Angeles in an attempt to get Matsuzaka signed before Thursday's deadline. "I think it's also fair to say we're on Scott Boras's doorstep because he hasn't negotiated with us so far," Henry said. "We're taking the fight directly to him to try to have a negotiation here."

Source: Boston.com

[soccer10k]

ill be damned if i am going to read it this is posted, but apparently gammons is reporting that boras is demanding 18-20 million on espn insider. I dont have the service, but thats what someone told me.

 

Well, there is this article on ESPN.com in which Boras says Matsuzaka is worth $100M.

[Laura]

Rotoworld:

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka-S-Red Sox Dec. 11 - 10:26 pm et

 

 

MLB has no intention of letting agent Scott Boras try to buy Daisuke Matsuzaka's freedom from the Seibu Lions should negotiations with the Red Sox fail.

There's been some speculation that Boras would help Matsuzaka come up with a sufficient total to pay off the Lions. "The Commissioner’s office would not recognize that free agency, and the Japanese commissioner’s office is in agreement with us," said Lou Melendez, the vice president for international operations for MLB. If Matsuzaka declines to take Boston's offer, Boras could attempt to legally challenge the posting system. While he could build quite a case, even a successful challenge might not get Matsuzaka to the majors any sooner.

Source: New York Times

 

Boras trying to pay for Matsuzaka's "freedom". This is getting funnier and funnier every day.

 

Hmmm ... I don't know why allowing Japanese players to buy out their own rights wouldn't be a better solution than the posting system.

[Backtobanks]

It's really a shame that the Cubs can't trade for the right to sign him.

[treebird]

Rotoworld:

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka-S-Red Sox Dec. 11 - 10:26 pm et

 

 

MLB has no intention of letting agent Scott Boras try to buy Daisuke Matsuzaka's freedom from the Seibu Lions should negotiations with the Red Sox fail.

There's been some speculation that Boras would help Matsuzaka come up with a sufficient total to pay off the Lions. "The Commissioner’s office would not recognize that free agency, and the Japanese commissioner’s office is in agreement with us," said Lou Melendez, the vice president for international operations for MLB. If Matsuzaka declines to take Boston's offer, Boras could attempt to legally challenge the posting system. While he could build quite a case, even a successful challenge might not get Matsuzaka to the majors any sooner.

Source: New York Times

 

Boras trying to pay for Matsuzaka's "freedom". This is getting funnier and funnier every day.

 

Hmmm ... I don't know why allowing Japanese players to buy out their own rights wouldn't be a better solution than the posting system.

 

really? what if players couldn't afford it? seems like it'd be awfully likely to result in players being inextricably linked to whatever agent puts up the dough.

 

also, the idea that boras wanted to do this suddenly and within the constructs of the current posting system is laughable.

[Laura]

 

really? what if players couldn't afford it? seems like it'd be awfully likely to result in players being inextricably linked to whatever agent puts up the dough.

 

Seems to me a ripe area for collective action. Something a union might even get involved in.

 

Sometimes market solutions might be the best solutions. The Japanese team is being compensated for surrendering a player's rights. Why should it matter whether the compensation is transferred from an MLB bank account or a non-MLB bank account?

 

Under the current system, a Japanese player has to fulfill the requirements of Japanese free agency (whether by earning it through service time or going through the posting process and having his rights bought out). If posted, then the player has to restart the process and fulfill the MLB free agency requirements. If anything, part of the problem here seems to be that the system is out of whack in terms of the market.

 

I don't know the details of how much service time is required in Japan for free agency. Maybe a short-term fix would be for a team to bid on the remaining free agency years and not have the MLB free agency clock reset when the player signs. It would lower the initial bids, since an MLB team would be bidding on remaining service time vs a set period of owning the rights, but it would likely increase the chances of a player signing.

 

also, the idea that boras wanted to do this suddenly and within the constructs of the current posting system is laughable.

 

I've read about this concept before Matsuzaka was posted. I'm not sure how many people think the posting process is flawless, although $51.1M would probably appease any lingering Seibu Lions concerns.

 

Of course, if this is viewed as a Big Bad Scott Boras issue, then he becomes the problem and the only solution is to get rid of him. Which is much easier said than done.

 

I'd still guess that Matsuzaka gets signed, but I'd like to see some action toward improving the system.

[erik316wttn]

It's really a shame that the Cubs can't trade for the right to sign him.

 

And we could end up parting with some good talent just to have Boras pull the same crap with us. No thanks.

 

Not that I wouldn't love to have him in the rotation, but not for the price the Red Sox had to pay.

[Laura]

Maybe not what Boston values him at, if they were willing to spend $91/5, but given the circumstances it works out pretty well for Boras.

*Boston pays $91/5. Stiff, but you know, pitching costs.

*Boras/Mats get $70/5. Not near his market value of $91/5, but close enough to make it worthwhile.

*Seibu gets $51-$30 - $21 to keep. Not nearly as sweet at $51, but, well, close enough. At least, a lot closer than $0.00.

 

I think Boras is working on Seibu as much or more than he is on Boston.

 

Is that contrary to the principle of how these posting things are supposed to work? Well, perhaps so.

 

But, Boras is a clever dude. I assume he's come up with some sort of mechanism by which Seibu will be able to transmit some large chunks of money to Mats within the constraints of whatever laws apply, whether those be US, Japanese, or mlb laws. Maybe he's just bluffing Seibu, maybe they won't flinch, and maybe he'll settle for $40/5 or whatever Boston's current offer is.

 

We'll maybe never know, other than whether he signs or not. If he does, we'll never know if or how much value Seibu "gifted" back to him to make this work out.

 

That would be an end-run around the luxury tax and the rest of MLB would be foolish to allow that to happen.

 

Next time around, the Yankees would be well-served to bid $100M, sign the player to a minimal contract and just agree to have a team kick back half the bid. At least they don't have to pay luxury tax on bids vs. payroll.

[Cubzfan64]

As far as Boras goes - I can't stand what he does, but I can't deny the fact that he produces for his clients. The folks who hire him should know exactly what they are getting for their money - they've sold themselves to the highest bidder above everything else (winning, loyalty, etc...) and I can't argue with the fact that he does an excellent job for them.

 

In effect, baseball created the monster that is Scott Boras and now they have to live with him.

 

I heard someone the other day who was quoted as saying something to the effect that Scott Boras is unlike anyone else to negotiate with because he WILL shoot the hostage and everyone knows it!

 

This morning on Boston sportstalk it sounds to me like The Red Sox have been the first ones to "blink" in this standoff. Apparently Theo and Larry are flying to Boras to offer another proposal - forget the fact that he didn't even respond to their first proposal given ~10 days ago. In effect, they just told him how desperate they are.

 

It was also reported that Matsuzaka wanted to be present at the meeting between Boras and the Red Sox, but Boras told him no, that he would take care of it.

 

It would be very interesting to know the order of Matsuzaka's priorities:

 

1) Play in the major leagues

2) Make the most money possible

 

I almost wonder if Matsuzaka has the above order, but Boras looks at it with #2 first.

[TheDude]

Boras was on Cold Pizza (you can watch the clip on ESPN) and I had to shut the video down before he even finished.

 

His opening statement was complete hypocracy - in the same breath he said he has not received a "second offer" from the Red Sox, but he has been having meetings with them all day today... :?:

 

What the hell are they talking about then, the weather?

 

Further, he said he doesn't understand why the Red Sox owner Henry stated they have to take the fight to Boras (meaning the negotiation), saying he has been in communication with Epstein daily.

 

So he acknowledges talks everyday, but denies a new offer has been made, and denies he isn't negotiating, even though the talks are still halted at the original Red Sox offer from weeks ago.

 

Listening to that man makes my skin crawl.

[E.J.]

Found this quote in the NY Times interesting:

 

NY Times[/url]"]"One thing is clear, D-Mat will some day be a major league player," Boras said. "We have further negotiating to do. The deadline's not here in five minutes. The parties do understand what the player's value is in the free agent system."

 

Some Japanese reporters said it would be awkward for Matsuzaka if he had to return to Japan. Matsuzaka has already said good-bye to his country and the financially-strapped Lions were expecting a significant sum after posting him.

 

"Nobody in Japan is expecting him to come back because the negotiations broke down," said Yasuko Yanagita, a reporter for the Hochi Shimbun. "I don't think this is only for the Japanese culture. But, in Japan, someone asking for 'Money, money, money,' does not leave a good impression."

 

Boras has absolutely no leverage in this deal, and I hope the Red Sox hold out. As long as the Red Sox are offering a decent deal I don't have any problem with them telling Matz to go back to Japan and wait 'til next year.

 

There's no way Matz should be getting $100 million when he was only making $4.5 million last year, and the Red Sox have already forked out $51 million just to talk to the guy. The posting system has a lot of flaws, but Boras is the biggest problem in this scenario.

[C.C.]

Found this quote in the NY Times interesting:

 

NY Times[/url]"]"One thing is clear, D-Mat will some day be a major league player," Boras said. "We have further negotiating to do. The deadline's not here in five minutes. The parties do understand what the player's value is in the free agent system."

 

Some Japanese reporters said it would be awkward for Matsuzaka if he had to return to Japan. Matsuzaka has already said good-bye to his country and the financially-strapped Lions were expecting a significant sum after posting him.

 

"Nobody in Japan is expecting him to come back because the negotiations broke down," said Yasuko Yanagita, a reporter for the Hochi Shimbun. "I don't think this is only for the Japanese culture. But, in Japan, someone asking for 'Money, money, money,' does not leave a good impression."

 

Boras has absolutely no leverage in this deal, and I hope the Red Sox hold out. As long as the Red Sox are offering a decent deal I don't have any problem with them telling Matz to go back to Japan and wait 'til next year.

 

There's no way Matz should be getting $100 million when he was only making $4.5 million last year, and the Red Sox have already forked out $51 million just to talk to the guy. The posting system has a lot of flaws, but Boras is the biggest problem in this scenario.

 

No, the biggest problem is Matz hired Boras.

[Vinestal]

He should be getting 10-12 million a year if not he should go back to Japan for a couple more seasons then hit the free agent market for a huge payday. I dont blame Daisuke or Boras I blame Boston for low balling. Id just back my bags and go back to Japan for a couple more years. I dont think Boston ever intended to sign him anyway.