Guh? (Marmol as valuable as Hill?)

[RockTheIvy]

From Phil's "Best Dressed of the Winter Meetings:"

 

A possible three-team deal that would send Jason Jennings from Colorado to the Cubs, with Jacque Jones, right-hander Carlos Marmol and left-hander Paul Maholm going to the Rockies and outfielder Brad Hawpe from Colorado to Pittsburgh. For one thing, it was never proposed. For another, the Cubs value Marmol almost as much as Rich Hill, making him essentially untouchable.

 

I understand that they like Marmol, but as much as Rich Hill!?

 

McDonough must have some lame marketing idea cooked up for Marmol.

[ThePenguin11]

There's a lot of discussion about this in the Winter Meetings thread.

[PrimeTime]

Marmol sucks..I dont know why, I just don't like the guy...Hil land him are on totally different levels...You gotta be kidding me..How do you not trade Marmol for Church already??? That shouldve been done yesterday

[Rusch33]

I've always thought Marmol has the stuff to make it, but that's just me. I would value him.

 

I always didn't think he pitched that bad last year besides the walks. The walks, it seemed, were always in bunches, and always led to a lot of runs. If he can somehow cut down on walking people, I think he can be a pretty effective 4/5.

[Northsider]

Marmol has some wicked breaking stuff, but his control right now is questionable, mostly due to the fact that he's only been a pitcher for a couple of years now. Hendry, I would bet, is more willing to take the risk of letting him fail as a prospect because he can't find his release point within the next two or three years (which, given that he's an athlete, I personally find unlikely) than to take the risk that he becomes a Willis for someone else later on. This same attitude probably applies to Pie, EPatt, Veal, and Gallagher, as well as having applied to both Murton and Hill in the recent past. He'd probably have to be blown away (a couple of above average SPs, a major bat and some) before letting any of these guys loose.

 

Note: There may be more untouchables like the named above, I just don't know who they would be.

[RockTheIvy]

Marmol has some wicked breaking stuff, but his control right now is questionable

 

So you're saying he's a Cub pitching prospect? :wink:

[Yestheydo]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

[sunnydoo]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

[CubsWin]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

Call it coaching. Call it scouting. Call it whatever you want. Hendry's job is to determine which players are going to help his team the most. And Hendry saw that Hill would do that at the major league level before he was actually doing it at the major league level. Hendry got this one right.

 

The words in the quote belong to Phil Rogers. No one in the Cubs front office was quoted in reference to Marmol. If it is accurate that Carlos is untouchable, then he isn't going anywhere and we'll have the ability to wait and see if Hendry is right on this one too.

 

Personally, trading for Ryan Church sounds like a good idea to me. If Marmol gets the deal done and if Jones can bring in a decent starter in a package, I'd go for it. But I certainly do not have as much information at my fingertips as Hendry does. There is a lot more to this than just stats, though they should play the largest part.

[NewUserName]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

 

 

Problem being is those geniuses dont take into account that most players have to struggle at the major league level before they are going to be successful. Sadly we here in Cub nation by and large dont want to go thru the struggles with young players.

 

I think Marmol is going to be a solid pitcher once he gets his control down.

[mg420]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

 

what about all the "trade hill for anything threads" after his first stint with the cubs last year, i think you will find that there were few hill supporters on this board until he came up and dominated the second time around.

[mg420]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

 

 

Problem being is those geniuses dont take into account that most players have to struggle at the major league level before they are going to be successful. Sadly we here in Cub nation by and large dont want to go thru the struggles with young players.

 

I think Marmol is going to be a solid pitcher once he gets his control down.[/quote]

 

me too but i think his future is in the pen as a closer as opposed to starting.

[fromthestretch]

what about all the "trade hill for anything threads" after his first stint with the cubs last year, i think you will find that there were few hill supporters on this board until he came up and dominated the second time around.

 

And I think you'll find that you are very wrong about that. There were probably people willing to trade him if it made the team better, but that doesn't mean they didn't think he'd succeed.

[Banedon]

This one is being discussed quite a bit already and I believe pretty much shot down:

 

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/PremiumForum/viewtopic.php?t=37129

 

viewtopic.php?t=37129

[BigbadB]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

 

 

Problem being is those geniuses dont take into account that most players have to struggle at the major league level before they are going to be successful. Sadly we here in Cub nation by and large dont want to go thru the struggles with young players.

 

I think Marmol is going to be a solid pitcher once he gets his control down.[/quote]

 

me too but i think his future is in the pen as a closer as opposed to starting.

 

A lot of guys can become solid pitchers once they get their control down. Unfortunately, it's much easier said than done. And a lot of those guys never will get their control down.

 

I like what I saw of Marmol, but there is a full stable of arms in the system that are not overly high on any other teams radar. If Marmol gets it done for Church, I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

[Banedon]

Ok, I'm unlocking this due to popular demand. Since this was more about Marmol's value than the trade rumor itself, I went ahead and edited the topic.

[Danny82]

This sounds suspiciously like what everyone was saying about Hill last year. What if --I'm just saying what if-- Hendry and his staff are better at scouting pitchers than the almighty internet geniuses? It could happen.

 

If you look at the #s, "those geniuses" on this board were actually correct.

 

In Hill's 1st stint with the Cubs last year, he had 15 walks in 19 innings. He was sent back down, and they tried a different approach with him.

 

When he came back up in late July, after one shaky outing, he had 21 walks in 76 innings.

 

Its not necessarily about scouting, sometimes its about coaching. Now only if we had a pitching coach at the Major League level.

 

And it's not only about #'s either with a guy just breaking into the majors, is it?

[abuck1220]

in case anyone forgot, i was touting/defending hill the entire time.

 

just for the record.

[neely crenshaw]

the problem with us here in cubland is that no one in our system should be untouchable. we have watch many untouchables come and go with nothing to show for them..if we have a chance at jennings and marmol is holding it up...that's bad baseball. marmol could be great but if we get a young major league ready starter we should do it.

again we could have gotten tejada but prior was untouchable- at least straight up

cpatt was untouchable and at one time we could have gotten anyone, same with guzman..or christenson, or brownlee, or wellmeyer, wuertz...farnsworth need i say more. sometimes you have to pull the trigger and help get a proven player.

[Fred Hornkohl]

in case anyone forgot, i was touting/defending hill the entire time.

 

just for the record.

 

Oh... are you a fan of Rich Hil, abuck ? :wink:

[mg420]

in case anyone forgot, i was touting/defending hill the entire time.

 

just for the record.

 

ditto

[Chocolate Milk]

in case anyone forgot, i was touting/defending hill the entire time.

 

just for the record.

 

Oh... are you a fan of Rich Hil, abuck ? :wink:

 

By typing "Rich Hill" you are putting up abuck's bat signal.

[Guest]

is marmol's minor league career anywhere close to hill's? I am having a little trouble with this comparison. Rich Hill dominated the high minors. Has Marmol? Not that I mind keeping him but if he is holding up a worthwhile deal, I wouldn't label him as untouchable by a long stretch.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

is marmol's minor league career anywhere close to hill's? I am having a little trouble with this comparison. Rich Hill dominated the high minors. Has Marmol? Not that I mind keeping him but if he is holding up a worthwhile deal, I wouldn't label him as untouchable by a long stretch.

 

No, he hasn't. He also hasn't pitched anywhere near as much as Hill did in the high minors - and, of course, had much worse control.

 

Rich Hill

Carlos Marmol

[BDWeav71]

I think Marmol has a good future as a closer. I would rather not see him start anymore for the big league club.