2007 Hall of Fame Ballots: Gwynn & Ripken Inducted

[soccer10k]

the guy with a career line of .296/.369/.564 and a career ops+ of 143 should get in, but won't

 

okay, i give up. who?

 

That would be Albert Belle.

 

And yes, he belongs.

 

I'm torn on Belle. He really only played 10 full years but during many of those years he was very, very good.

[soccer10k]

I agree with those who have said Ripkin and Gwynn should, and will, get in.

[NewUserName]

 

While Dawson and Murphy were very good players, I think they both fall a little short of being considered HOF-worthy.

 

C'mon man. You'll vote for Big Mac but not for Dawson?

 

Let's compare:

 

Dawson: .279 BA, 2,774 hits, 1373 runs, 438 homeruns, 503 2B, 1591 rbi, 314 sb, 1 mvp, 8 gold gloves

 

McGwire: .263 BA, 1626 hits, 1167 runs, 583 homeruns, 252 2B, 1414 rbi, 12 sb, no mvps, 1 gold glove

 

 

If both players played through the same era I would probably take Dawson in his prime over McGwire also. I think Dawson would have hit 50 Hrs several times in the late 90s early 00s.

 

 

I bring this up some and usually get a few hate filled remarks but I will say it anyway. Why is Cal Ripken so revered for setting a personal record that probably hurt his performance and the teams. I think Cal should be in the hall and was a great player. If Barry Bonds was swinging at bad pitches to set the HR mark he would certainly be criticized for putting personal records in front of team records. Cal Ripken playing everyday probably hurt his performance as a player, hence he and his managers put personal records ahead of what is good for the team.

[fromthestretch]

 

While Dawson and Murphy were very good players, I think they both fall a little short of being considered HOF-worthy.

 

C'mon man. You'll vote for Big Mac but not for Dawson?

 

Let's compare:

 

Dawson: .279 BA, 2,774 hits, 1373 runs, 438 homeruns, 503 2B, 1591 rbi, 314 sb, 1 mvp, 8 gold gloves

 

McGwire: .263 BA, 1626 hits, 1167 runs, 583 homeruns, 252 2B, 1414 rbi, 12 sb, no mvps, 1 gold glove

 

Dawson was one of my favorite players when I was growing up, and no, I wouldn't put him in the HOF.

 

The difference in OPS between the two is astounding (.982 to .805). McGwire has the 13th highest career OPS (and if you don't like that, he's tied for 11th all time in Adjsuted OPS+). On top of that, McGwire hit 145 more home runs in over 3100 fewer at-bats. He's seventh in career home runs, and first in at-bats per home run. He was one of the best power hitters of all time, while getting on base at a high rate.

 

I'm not putting down Dawson in any way. He was a very good player. I just think he falls a little short.

[soccer10k]

Who I would vote for bolded, who I think will get in italicsed.

 

Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Dante Bichette, Bert Blyleven, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Dave Concepcion, Eric Davis, Andre Dawson, Tony Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Rich "Goose" Gossage, Tony Gwynn, Orel Hershiser, Tommy John, Wally Joyner, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Paul O'Neill, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Cal Ripken Jr., Bret Saberhagen, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Devon White, Bobby Witt.

 

I don't feel that either belong in the HOF, but I'm curious as to how you can vote for Jack Morris while not voting for Tommy John.

 

While Dawson and Murphy were very good players, I think they both fall a little short of being considered HOF-worthy.

 

I agree. Jack Morris and his 105 ERA+ can stay out of the HOF.

 

It's the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Very Good. This is the problem with counting stats. A guy (somebody like Rafael Palmeiro) can be very good for a long time and rack up the counting stats but never be a great player. That player should not be in the HOF.

[OleMissCub]

The difference in OPS between the two is astounding (.982 to .805). McGwire has the 13th highest career OPS (and if you don't like that, he's tied for 11th all time in Adjsuted OPS+). On top of that, McGwire hit 145 more home runs in over 3100 fewer at-bats. He's seventh in career home runs, and first in at-bats per home run. He was one of the best power hitters of all time, while getting on base at a high rate.

 

I'm not putting down Dawson in any way. He was a very good player. I just think he falls a little short.

 

All of those stats are reason why I think he falls short. All those stats show is that he was a completely one dimensional player.

[cl smooth]

I bring this up some and usually get a few hate filled remarks but I will say it anyway. Why is Cal Ripken so revered for setting a personal record that probably hurt his performance and the teams. I think Cal should be in the hall and was a great player. If Barry Bonds was swinging at bad pitches to set the HR mark he would certainly be criticized for putting personal records in front of team records. Cal Ripken playing everyday probably hurt his performance as a player, hence he and his managers put personal records ahead of what is good for the team.

 

i always thought that pete rose did the same thing just to break cobb's hit record. his last four seasons were crap, imo. and were pitchers trying to deny him the hit record? if you look at his stats, he has 86 walks in '85. he had not received that many walks since '79 with 95. he was averaging around 40-60 walks between '79 and '86.

[fromthestretch]

I think Dawson would have hit 50 Hrs several times in the late 90s early 00s.

 

Define several. In the history of Major League Baseball, only 39 times has a player hit 50 or more home runs in a single season. Sure, there's a chance Dawson might have done it once or twice had he played in the late 90s, but I highly doubt he would have had several 50-homer seasons. Outside of his 49-homer season in '87, Dawson's next best home run season was 32 in 1983. I don't think it's safe to say he would have hit over 50 had he played in a slightly later era.

 

Healthier knees would have helped Dawson more than a change in the era in which he played.

[soccer10k]

The difference in OPS between the two is astounding (.982 to .805). McGwire has the 13th highest career OPS (and if you don't like that, he's tied for 11th all time in Adjsuted OPS+). On top of that, McGwire hit 145 more home runs in over 3100 fewer at-bats. He's seventh in career home runs, and first in at-bats per home run. He was one of the best power hitters of all time, while getting on base at a high rate.

 

I'm not putting down Dawson in any way. He was a very good player. I just think he falls a little short.

 

All of those stats are reason why I think he falls short. All those stats show is that he was a completely one dimensional player.

 

He was also one of the most feared hitters in the game for a few years.

[fromthestretch]

The difference in OPS between the two is astounding (.982 to .805). McGwire has the 13th highest career OPS (and if you don't like that, he's tied for 11th all time in Adjsuted OPS+). On top of that, McGwire hit 145 more home runs in over 3100 fewer at-bats. He's seventh in career home runs, and first in at-bats per home run. He was one of the best power hitters of all time, while getting on base at a high rate.

 

I'm not putting down Dawson in any way. He was a very good player. I just think he falls a little short.

 

All of those stats are reason why I think he falls short. All those stats show is that he was a completely one dimensional player.

 

Actually, he did two things really well: hit for power (10th in career SLG%) and get on base (78th in career OBP).

 

He certainly wasn't a liability defensively, and I can't blame him for the fact that he wasn't blessed with footspeed. Home runs are the best outcome of an at-bat. When you're one of the best all time at doing that, while maintaining a very high OBP, you belong in the HOF.

[OleMissCub]

There's more to baseball than power and home runs.

[Derwood]

the HoF voting is a sham. 75% should only be mandatory if they make it mandatory for all eligible vpoters to actually cast ballots. plus we know that the voters are living HoF members, many of whom hold personal grudges, don't like the "new way of baseball", or purposely don't vote for players at their own position as to not somehow dilute their own greatness (coughjoemorgancough)

[Warpticon]

It's the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Very Good.

 

I just want to express how much I absolutely loathe that statement. "Fame" is not a qualitative deviation of "good." It's such a terrible expression that so many people have taken to using, and it drives me crazy.

[Bruce Miles]

the HoF voting is a sham. 75% should only be mandatory if they make it mandatory for all eligible vpoters to actually cast ballots. plus we know that the voters are living HoF members, many of whom hold personal grudges, don't like the "new way of baseball", or purposely don't vote for players at their own position as to not somehow dilute their own greatness (coughjoemorgancough)

 

Living Hall of Fame members vote only for those on the Veterans Committee ballot. They do not vote in this phase of Hall of Fame balloting. This phase is reserved for BBWAA members who have been members for at least 10 years.

[CubinNY]

the HoF voting is a sham. 75% should only be mandatory if they make it mandatory for all eligible vpoters to actually cast ballots. plus we know that the voters are living HoF members, many of whom hold personal grudges, don't like the "new way of baseball", or purposely don't vote for players at their own position as to not somehow dilute their own greatness (coughjoemorgancough)

 

Living Hall of Fame members vote only for those on the Veterans Committee ballot. They do not vote in this phase of Hall of Fame balloting. This phase is reserved for BBWAA members who have been members for at least 10 years.

 

Bruce,

 

Are you eligible to vote?

 

Would you vote for Dawson for me it you can?

[Bruce Miles]

the HoF voting is a sham. 75% should only be mandatory if they make it mandatory for all eligible vpoters to actually cast ballots. plus we know that the voters are living HoF members, many of whom hold personal grudges, don't like the "new way of baseball", or purposely don't vote for players at their own position as to not somehow dilute their own greatness (coughjoemorgancough)

 

Living Hall of Fame members vote only for those on the Veterans Committee ballot. They do not vote in this phase of Hall of Fame balloting. This phase is reserved for BBWAA members who have been members for at least 10 years.

 

Bruce,

 

Are you eligible to vote?

 

Would you vote for Dawson for me it you can?

 

I do vote. I have voted for Dawson each time he has been on the ballot and will do so again.

[RynoRules]

But will you vote for Big Mac?

[Bruce Miles]

But will you vote for Big Mac?

 

Leaning toward it.

[RynoRules]

But will you vote for Big Mac?

 

Leaning toward it.

 

Are you bothered by his testimony in front of Congress and the difficult-to-ignore implications thereof?

 

Just asking - not judging. We value your insight and opinion.

[Guest]

Harold Baines

Albert Belle - Great rate stats, but injuries cut his career too short

Dante Bichette

Bert Blyleven - The best pitcher and perhaps the best player eligible not in the hall

Bobby Bonilla

Scott Brosius

Jay Buhner

Ken Caminiti

Jose Canseco

Dave Concepcion

Eric Davis

Andre Dawson - really, really close. But just short for me. If he played today, he wouldn't have to play on the turf and his knees may have held up longer.

Tony Fernandez

Steve Garvey

Rich "Goose" Gossage - I just can't find it in me to vote for relievers.

Tony Gwynn

Orel Hershiser

Tommy John

Wally Joyner

Don Mattingly

Mark McGwire - I'd probably put him in eventually, but I'd wait for a few years and deal with all the likely steroid users at once.

Jack Morris

Dale Murphy

Paul O'Neill

Dave Parker

Jim Rice

Cal Ripken Jr.

Bret Saberhagen

Lee Smith

Alan Trammell - people don't realize how good Trammell was. His '87 season is one of the greats for a SS and better than anything Ripken ever did. Trammell played in tougher parks than Cal, played in a much lower offense era, was a better overall defender and gets style points for leading his team to a WS championship. His overall rate numbers are comparable, but I believe better when the above is factored in. Durability gives Cal a significant edge in overall value, but Trammell was, IMO, better when he was on the field.

Devon White

Bobby Witt

 

Bold - gets my vote

italics - close, but no vote

[Bruce Miles]

But will you vote for Big Mac?

 

Leaning toward it.

 

Are you bothered by his testimony in front of Congress and the difficult-to-ignore implications thereof?

 

Just asking - not judging. We value your insight and opinion.

 

Yes, I am bothered by his testimony.

[Outshined_One]

They don't call it The Hall of Elite, either.

[Derwood]

the HoF voting is a sham. 75% should only be mandatory if they make it mandatory for all eligible vpoters to actually cast ballots. plus we know that the voters are living HoF members, many of whom hold personal grudges, don't like the "new way of baseball", or purposely don't vote for players at their own position as to not somehow dilute their own greatness (coughjoemorgancough)

 

Living Hall of Fame members vote only for those on the Veterans Committee ballot. They do not vote in this phase of Hall of Fame balloting. This phase is reserved for BBWAA members who have been members for at least 10 years.

 

ah, my mistake. But is it the BBWAA or the Veteran's vote that is notorious for voters not sending ballots?

[fromthestretch]

There's more to baseball than power and home runs.

 

I know that. He was one of the best at power, and in the top 75 in not making outs. The only part of the game that was lacking was speed, and there are plenty of slow guys in the HOF. He wasn't bad defensively. In fact, for at least the first half of his career, he was pretty good with the glove.

 

He excelled in two areas of the game. If you don't agree with that, that's fine, but the numbers prove that he was a dominant hitter.

[OleMissCub]

There's more to baseball than power and home runs.

 

I know that. He was one of the best at power, and in the top 75 in not making outs. The only part of the game that was lacking was speed, and there are plenty of slow guys in the HOF. He wasn't bad defensively. In fact, for at least the first half of his career, he was pretty good with the glove.

 

He excelled in two areas of the game. If you don't agree with that, that's fine, but the numbers prove that he was a dominant hitter.

 

That's fine you feel that way. I mean, I won't deny he was a great power hitter, surely he was. However, I think anyone who would vote for Big Mac would also have to vote for Dawson. I'd rather have Dawson on my team in his prime than Big Mac. Dawson would give you good power, great speed, and a constant gold glove.

 

But, to each his own! :-)