Alternatives for Shortstop

[Warpticon]

I've always liked Renteria as a player. I'd be thrilled if he were our SS next year. I don't know much about the Braves though... are there any talks of him being dealt? Do they have a SS waiting in the wings?

 

Yeah, Wilson Bete...oh, wait.

[WrigleyField 22]

I think Macier Izturis is a fantastic option for SS.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

If Renteria hits like he did last year, I'd love him. But, I doubt that.

 

I think Lugo and Renteria are similar hitters, but Lugo's glove is far better. They're the same age, and if Lugo hits for us like he hit for the D-Rays in '05 and '06 he's the far better player.

 

Plus, Tim Hudson sucks now. He ate innings last year, but he was very hittable, not so homer stingy, and doesn't have great control while his K numbers decline. Plus the oblique injuries will get annoying fast.

 

Lugo seems like the best option. I'd love to get younger and cheaper (I'm a big proponent of that if you read my other posts), but I'm not a big Theriot fan.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I really think Lugo--if they are tryin targeting him---would be playing SS, and ot CF in 2007, regardless of Lugo agreeing to play CF. To me, there are better CF stopgaps available (Lofton/Payton, ie) then there are for SS (Clayton/Counsell, ie) in FA. I rather sign Lugo for SS, and add Lofton, then sign Lugo to play CF, and have Izzy/Cedeno at SS. At worst, I rather have Theriot at SS, over the other two in-house options.

[sunnydoo]

I'm just curious as to why Lugo's defense is suspect? I always thought he was about average defensively. I lived in Florida for about a year and saw him play on multiple occasions and I don't remember any problems with his D.

 

Ya, most of the big questions about him are related to character flaws...wife beating and clubhouse mayhem b/c of anger management issues are the chief concerns.

 

I will take a cup of No Thank You and put up with lesser production with better attitude.

[mg420]

With theriot's approach like murtons he will be successfull offensively. I'm not sure his arm is strong enough to play short though.

 

he has played 189 games at ss in the minors including 36 games in 2005.

[Backtobanks]

Izzy and Cedeno are gambles.. and Cubs havent been lucky with those in the past.

 

What about Hanley Ramirez? He had a good season last year, and is bound to get better. I wonder what Florida wants/needs.

 

 

I would think Ramirez is about as untouchable as you can get.

[Abe Frohman]

I would like to see Theriot win a spot and prosper. He showed last season, in which he got enough time to prove he wasn't really a fluke, that his approach to hitting only got better the higher level he played.

 

Though he has zero power, Ryan Theriot is a disciplined hitter who is a tough out and knows how to get on base. The fact that he is a good baserunner (despite a couple of pretty reckless mistakes) with decent speed doesn't hurt.

 

I think the money, if a factor, should be spent elsewhere - like starting pitching and another OFer with some pop. I think Theriot would make a hell of a #2 hitter behind Soriano.

seconded

 

I disagree that it was enough time to prove it wasn't a fluke. Players have fluke seasons, Theriot easily could have had a fluke 150 ABs. I'd say the chances it was a fluke are much higher than the chances that that is his real skill level. He might be able to produce something, but the Cubs shouldn't count on him like they did Cedeno last year.

 

Theriot obviously overacheived with the Cubs in 2006. Regardless, his pattern of hitting since he abandoned switch-hitting has been consistant: he knows how to get on base, and what to do on the basepaths.

 

Even when he was up with the Cubs in prior stints - he showed to be a tough out. Mind you, it really seemed like Dusty Baker was trying to give Theriot the chance to fail, instead of succeed. What I mean is Dusty was trying his damnedest to give 2nd Base to Freddie Bynum - but Theriot just came on so strong that even that idiotic platoon had to be squashed.

 

I just feel that Theriot has arrived. I wasn't real excited about the DeRosa signing (though I'm really glad to have him) because he was filling a position that was almost earned by an actual Cub prospect.

 

I think Theriot is much better a 2nd Baseman than a Shortstop, but I'd like to see him playing until he loses the job. At least.

[Soul]

I would like to see Theriot win a spot and prosper. He showed last season, in which he got enough time to prove he wasn't really a fluke, that his approach to hitting only got better the higher level he played.

 

Though he has zero power, Ryan Theriot is a disciplined hitter who is a tough out and knows how to get on base. The fact that he is a good baserunner (despite a couple of pretty reckless mistakes) with decent speed doesn't hurt.

 

I think the money, if a factor, should be spent elsewhere - like starting pitching and another OFer with some pop. I think Theriot would make a hell of a #2 hitter behind Soriano.

seconded

 

I disagree that it was enough time to prove it wasn't a fluke. Players have fluke seasons, Theriot easily could have had a fluke 150 ABs. I'd say the chances it was a fluke are much higher than the chances that that is his real skill level. He might be able to produce something, but the Cubs shouldn't count on him like they did Cedeno last year.

 

Theriot obviously overacheived with the Cubs in 2006. Regardless, his pattern of hitting since he abandoned switch-hitting has been consistant: he knows how to get on base, and what to do on the basepaths.

 

Even when he was up with the Cubs in prior stints - he showed to be a tough out. Mind you, it really seemed like Dusty Baker was trying to give Theriot the chance to fail, instead of succeed. What I mean is Dusty was trying his damnedest to give 2nd Base to Freddie Bynum - but Theriot just came on so strong that even that idiotic platoon had to be squashed.

 

I just feel that Theriot has arrived. I wasn't real excited about the DeRosa signing (though I'm really glad to have him) because he was filling a position that was almost earned by an actual Cub prospect.

 

I think Theriot is much better a 2nd Baseman than a Shortstop, but I'd like to see him playing until he loses the job. At least.

 

I'd like to see Theriot get a shot, but I don't see any way someone could conclude he's going to be solid at the MLB level based on the limited time he has. I hope he is.

 

I also don't see how, despite what is coming from the Cubs, that DeRosa could be considered a season-long lock at 2B. A far more likely scenario in my mind (especially once the pressure of the season arrives) is that Piniella will use whichever player is successful. If DeRosa sucks, that opens the door for Theriot.

[CubColtPacer]

I would like to see Theriot win a spot and prosper. He showed last season, in which he got enough time to prove he wasn't really a fluke, that his approach to hitting only got better the higher level he played.

 

Though he has zero power, Ryan Theriot is a disciplined hitter who is a tough out and knows how to get on base. The fact that he is a good baserunner (despite a couple of pretty reckless mistakes) with decent speed doesn't hurt.

 

I think the money, if a factor, should be spent elsewhere - like starting pitching and another OFer with some pop. I think Theriot would make a hell of a #2 hitter behind Soriano.

seconded

 

I disagree that it was enough time to prove it wasn't a fluke. Players have fluke seasons, Theriot easily could have had a fluke 150 ABs. I'd say the chances it was a fluke are much higher than the chances that that is his real skill level. He might be able to produce something, but the Cubs shouldn't count on him like they did Cedeno last year.

 

Theriot obviously overacheived with the Cubs in 2006. Regardless, his pattern of hitting since he abandoned switch-hitting has been consistant: he knows how to get on base, and what to do on the basepaths.

 

Even when he was up with the Cubs in prior stints - he showed to be a tough out. Mind you, it really seemed like Dusty Baker was trying to give Theriot the chance to fail, instead of succeed. What I mean is Dusty was trying his damnedest to give 2nd Base to Freddie Bynum - but Theriot just came on so strong that even that idiotic platoon had to be squashed.

 

I just feel that Theriot has arrived. I wasn't real excited about the DeRosa signing (though I'm really glad to have him) because he was filling a position that was almost earned by an actual Cub prospect.

 

I think Theriot is much better a 2nd Baseman than a Shortstop, but I'd like to see him playing until he loses the job. At least.

 

I'd like to see Theriot get a shot, but I don't see any way someone could conclude he's going to be solid at the MLB level based on the limited time he has. I hope he is.

 

I also don't see how, despite what is coming from the Cubs, that DeRosa could be considered a season-long lock at 2B. A far more likely scenario in my mind (especially once the pressure of the season arrives) is that Piniella will use whichever player is successful. If DeRosa sucks, that opens the door for Theriot.

 

I agree with that. If Piniella feels Theriot is better a little bit into the season, he won't have any problem pulling DeRosa or any other player. That's simply his style-he doesn't care about contracts or anything else, but rather will give a quick hook to somebody who he feels is not helping the team.

[Rob]

In case people have forgotten, I feel a need to remind them.

 

1998 NY Yankees

 

Shane Spencer

 

67 AB - 10 HR

 

.373/.411/.910

 

 

Yeah, Theriot had twice as many at bats as him this season... but in limited time Spencer put up a Slugging % that was nearly as high as Theriot's season total OPS.

 

In the six years that followed, Spencer posted a slugging percentage of more than half that only once... a .460 effort in limited time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Theriot... but he's barely outside the range of how many times Spencer came up to the plate, and Spencer was clearly a one-year wonder. All that being said, I'd take Theriot over Izturis at short any day of the week and twice on sundays. Even with a Spencer-esque collapse, Izturis will make him look like Babe Ruth.

[CubColtPacer]

In case people have forgotten, I feel a need to remind them.

 

1998 NY Yankees

 

Shane Spencer

 

67 AB - 10 HR

 

.373/.411/.910

 

 

Yeah, Theriot had twice as many at bats as him this season... but in limited time Spencer put up a Slugging % that was nearly as high as Theriot's season total OPS.

 

In the six years that followed, Spencer posted a slugging percentage of more than half that only once... a .460 effort in limited time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Theriot... but he's barely outside the range of how many times Spencer came up to the plate, and Spencer was clearly a one-year wonder. All that being said, I'd take Theriot over Izturis at short any day of the week and twice on sundays. Even with a Spencer-esque collapse, Izturis will make him look like Babe Ruth.

 

Rob-what would you project Theriot, Cedeno, and Izturis for next year if they were the starter? I'm just curious. I do agree with your point about Spencer-there are many cases where this type of player ends up succeeding in the major leagues, but there are many more where they flame out.

[XZero771679666304]

In case people have forgotten, I feel a need to remind them.

 

1998 NY Yankees

 

Shane Spencer

 

67 AB - 10 HR

 

.373/.411/.910

 

 

Yeah, Theriot had twice as many at bats as him this season... but in limited time Spencer put up a Slugging % that was nearly as high as Theriot's season total OPS.

 

In the six years that followed, Spencer posted a slugging percentage of more than half that only once... a .460 effort in limited time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Theriot... but he's barely outside the range of how many times Spencer came up to the plate, and Spencer was clearly a one-year wonder. All that being said, I'd take Theriot over Izturis at short any day of the week and twice on sundays. Even with a Spencer-esque collapse, Izturis will make him look like Babe Ruth.

 

Or.....

 

62 AB .371/.400/.548/.948

 

 

Guess who?

 

 

Neifi Perez's stint with the Cubs in September 2004.

[CubinNY]

No one is suggesting that they'd be fine with Cedeno or Izturis. The Cubs need and upgrade and Theriot is not an upgrade that anyone should count on. It is just not a good idea.

[Abe Frohman]

In case people have forgotten, I feel a need to remind them.

 

1998 NY Yankees

 

Shane Spencer

 

67 AB - 10 HR

 

.373/.411/.910

 

 

Yeah, Theriot had twice as many at bats as him this season... but in limited time Spencer put up a Slugging % that was nearly as high as Theriot's season total OPS.

 

In the six years that followed, Spencer posted a slugging percentage of more than half that only once... a .460 effort in limited time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Theriot... but he's barely outside the range of how many times Spencer came up to the plate, and Spencer was clearly a one-year wonder. All that being said, I'd take Theriot over Izturis at short any day of the week and twice on sundays. Even with a Spencer-esque collapse, Izturis will make him look like Babe Ruth.

 

Is it really fair to assume that Theriot is going to fail like Spencer, Perez, Kevin Maas, or even Jerome Walton? Sometimes, players actually succeed - kinda like Theriot did in 2006 for the Cubs. Should his success surprise us? A pleasant surprise, yes - but we shouldn't be shocked. The only shocking thing about Theriot's performance were the 3 home runs, which were way more than you could have projected for him in 150 at bats.

 

My point is that Theriot has a plan at the plate which is obvious. He is not an easy out, and pitchers are going to have to work to get him out. I find that as a bigger asset than say Ronny Cedeno's lack of production. Theriot is not a free swinger who gets schooled every time he steps up to the plate. He is a player that has actually developed favorably in the Cubs system - and I think he is very possibly a guy who can handle the bat in the 2 hole and score some runs for the Cubs.

 

Since we have DeRosa, who is more accomplished and probably a better overall player - we don't need Theriot at 2B. Since we have Izturis at SS, I think he is better for the team since SS is a defensive position FIRST. If Theriot can play a good SS, I'd like to see him get a shot - but what do the scouting reports say about him at SS?

[RynoRules]

Is Bobby Meachem available? What about Rafael Santana?

[Rob]

 

Rob-what would you project Theriot, Cedeno, and Izturis for next year if they were the starter? I'm just curious. I do agree with your point about Spencer-there are many cases where this type of player ends up succeeding in the major leagues, but there are many more where they flame out.

 

Rough guesses?

 

Izturis - .265/.300/.345 plus glove but not plus-plus

 

Cedeno - .270/.310/.375 marginally above average glovework

 

Theriot - .280/.340/.390 below average glovework, but not bad

 

 

 

I don't see there being a whole lot of difference value-wise between Izturis and Cedeno right now. I still have a hard time believing Cedeno wont improve greatly upon working with Perry coupled with the fact he's got his rookie shakes out of the way. Izturis probably wont have much of a chance of improvement.

 

Theriot probably has the best chance to blow that projection away, but I'm not too optomistic about his glove. That's not as much of a concern with a staff that gets so many strikeouts and flyballs, though.

 

Looking at skills and future projection, Cedeno has the most upside of the bunch. Theriot is an unknown quantity but has the best bat right now. Izturis is nothing but a glove.

 

Irregardless of what the team's plans for the future are, I trade off Izturis in a package with some other guys to try and get Crisp for CF or Westbrook.

 

Depending on what else we do this offseason, I start either Cedeno or Theriot at SS. If we keep upgrading the offense and can hide what could be another year of developing the bat, I make Cedeno the everday guy as I think he can be more useful 2 years from now than Theriot if given the development time. If we still have a struggling offense with a distinct lack of OBP, I start Theriot and take the minor hit on defense.

 

None of this would stop me from signing a reasonable contract for Lugo or making a trade for ARod or Tejada, though.

[MPrior]

Here's my take (not much different from many that have already been posted):

 

Theriot is, without a doubt, the best in-house option at SS. Cedeno would be my second choice. Every effort should be made to get rid of Izturis.

 

However, Theriot is still not a great choice - his minor league numbers, even after he stopped switch-hitting, are far from stellar, and he's likely to struggle in a full year against major league pitching.

 

SO - if a reasonable upgrade can be found (Lugo, perhaps), then the Cubs should jump at the opportunity. However, if that upgrade prohibits significantly bolstering the starting rotation, we might be better off just sticking with Theriot.

 

Unfortunately, the likely scenario is that we start Izturis, which is easily the WORST possible option we have.

 

And as a side note, "irregardless" is not a word. It's been most famously used by that exquisite wordsmith and wit, George W. Bush. And, regardless of your political affiliation, I think it's pretty clear that sounding like George W. Bush is not a desirable thing.

[Drew Doughty]

How is Izturis worse than Cedeno? Cedeno was THE WORST offensive player in the NL last year. Izturis has never been that horrifyingly bad. He's much better defensively too. I think if we go with an OF of Murton - Jones - Soriano -- or better yet, sign JD Drew...pipe dreams -- we could hide Izturis in our lineup. While that's probably true of Cedeno, he doesn't really have a redeeming quality at this point.

[Rob]

How is Izturis worse than Cedeno? Cedeno was THE WORST offensive player in the NL last year. Izturis has never been that horrifyingly bad. He's much better defensively too. I think if we go with an OF of Murton - Jones - Soriano -- or better yet, sign JD Drew...pipe dreams -- we could hide Izturis in our lineup. While that's probably true of Cedeno, he doesn't really have a redeeming quality at this point.

 

Upside.

 

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic about his abilities and Gerald Perry... but I don't see a chance in hell that Cedeno could be worse than Izturis with the bat this year. Izturis had a fluke season in 2004, hitting better than anything in his track record shows he had the ability to do... and he still couldn't crack a .700 OPS.

 

Cedeno has all the tools and skills necessary to sustain an OPS above 700 if he does the requisite work with Perry this offseason. Judging from the way Cedeno altered his game upon coming up to the show, Perry's "aggressive within the zone" approach, work ethic, and disciplinary style seem to fit perfectly with fixing Cedeno.

 

And mind you, Cedeno was thought of as one of the top gloves in our system until last year and Izturis is injury riddled. There's a great chance Cedeno will bounce back defensively as well. The likely defensive difference isn't nearly great enough to warrant a spot on the roster for Izturis, let alone 4+ million and a starting gig.

[CubColtPacer]

How is Izturis worse than Cedeno? Cedeno was THE WORST offensive player in the NL last year. Izturis has never been that horrifyingly bad. He's much better defensively too. I think if we go with an OF of Murton - Jones - Soriano -- or better yet, sign JD Drew...pipe dreams -- we could hide Izturis in our lineup. While that's probably true of Cedeno, he doesn't really have a redeeming quality at this point.

 

Upside.

 

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic about his abilities and Gerald Perry... but I don't see a chance in hell that Cedeno could be worse than Izturis with the bat this year. Izturis had a fluke season in 2004, hitting better than anything in his track record shows he had the ability to do... and he still couldn't crack a .700 OPS.

 

Nitpick-Izturis had a .711 in 2004.

[Rob]

How is Izturis worse than Cedeno? Cedeno was THE WORST offensive player in the NL last year. Izturis has never been that horrifyingly bad. He's much better defensively too. I think if we go with an OF of Murton - Jones - Soriano -- or better yet, sign JD Drew...pipe dreams -- we could hide Izturis in our lineup. While that's probably true of Cedeno, he doesn't really have a redeeming quality at this point.

 

Upside.

 

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic about his abilities and Gerald Perry... but I don't see a chance in hell that Cedeno could be worse than Izturis with the bat this year. Izturis had a fluke season in 2004, hitting better than anything in his track record shows he had the ability to do... and he still couldn't crack a .700 OPS.

 

Nitpick-Izturis had a .711 in 2004.

 

I really need to decrease the resolution on my monitor. All 8's look like 6's to me unless I'm a half inch from the screen.

 

The point still stands, though. Izturis having a fluke season still leaves him swinging less of a bat than my sister.

[cheapseats]

 

However, Theriot is still not a great choice - his minor league numbers, even after he stopped switch-hitting, are far from stellar, and he's likely to struggle in a full year against major league pitching.

 

I've been trying to remember when Theriot quit switch hitting. Do you know?

 

Theriot has exhibited very good plate discipline throughout his career. If he could hit .280, I'd expect him to have a .350 OBP.

[Drew Doughty]

How is Izturis worse than Cedeno? Cedeno was THE WORST offensive player in the NL last year. Izturis has never been that horrifyingly bad. He's much better defensively too. I think if we go with an OF of Murton - Jones - Soriano -- or better yet, sign JD Drew...pipe dreams -- we could hide Izturis in our lineup. While that's probably true of Cedeno, he doesn't really have a redeeming quality at this point.

 

Upside.

 

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic about his abilities and Gerald Perry... but I don't see a chance in hell that Cedeno could be worse than Izturis with the bat this year. Izturis had a fluke season in 2004, hitting better than anything in his track record shows he had the ability to do... and he still couldn't crack a .700 OPS.

 

Cedeno has all the tools and skills necessary to sustain an OPS above 700 if he does the requisite work with Perry this offseason. Judging from the way Cedeno altered his game upon coming up to the show, Perry's "aggressive within the zone" approach, work ethic, and disciplinary style seem to fit perfectly with fixing Cedeno.

 

And mind you, Cedeno was thought of as one of the top gloves in our system until last year and Izturis is injury riddled. There's a great chance Cedeno will bounce back defensively as well. The likely defensive difference isn't nearly great enough to warrant a spot on the roster for Izturis, let alone 4+ million and a starting gig.

 

Cedeno was a pretty awful minor leaguer until 2005, possibly 2004 if you consider a 729 OPS alright. I would say his peak is right about where Izturis is now. They're both awful players at this point and I'd rather see Lugo in...but Izturis > Cedeno IMO.

[TheDude]

The point still stands, though. Izturis having a fluke season still leaves him swinging less of a bat than my sister.

 

I'm not going to champion Izturis, because I think the Cubs can do better. But, it is worth noting that Izturis demonstrated improvement every year from 2002 - 2004. 2005 and 2006 represent injury-shortened years or injury comeback years.

 

I would prefer to do much better than career OPS .631. But, at age 26, you don't have to write-off his ability to improve. I don't see his 2004 year as a career high for him. I think he can duplicate that during his age 27 and 28 years.