Marty York: Cubs Planning Trade for Vernon?

[baseball7897]

Toronto is pretty weak at the catching department. They may ask for Barrett in return. In that case, would you do a Wells for Barrett deal? In my opinion I would. There are guys like Bengie Molina who could be signed cheap to replace Barrett behind the plate. Bengie is not the offensive player that Barrett is, but his defense is pretty solid.

 

it would be tempting. i wonder if the bo sox would give up kottaras for howry or eyre?

 

I dont think Hendry would do that deal. Hendry probably has to win now to keep his job. Kottaras needs more time to develop before he can become an elite catcher.

 

Does he have to be an elite catcher right now for the Cubs to win in that scenario?

 

I could deal with Kottaras and Bengie behind the plate. But, I think the cubs could do just as fine with Soto and Bengie. I am not really tempted to deal either Eyre or Howry at this point. I think they could both really help the Cubs contend for a tilte next year.

Edited November 3, 2006 by baseball7897

[fromthestretch]

Toronto is pretty weak at the catching department. They may ask for Barrett in return. In that case, would you do a Wells for Barrett deal? In my opinion I would. There are guys like Bengie Molina who could be signed cheap to replace Barrett behind the plate. Bengie is not the offensive player that Barrett is, but his defense is pretty solid.

 

it would be tempting. i wonder if the bo sox would give up kottaras for howry or eyre?

 

I dont think Hendry would do that deal. Hendry probably has to win now to keep his job. Kottaras needs more time to develop before he can become an elite catcher.

 

Does he have to be an elite catcher right now for the Cubs to win in that scenario?

 

I think he does. How does he work with a pitching staff? How does he call a game? He still is pretty young. Which means he still has alot to learn. I dont think the Cubs could go into 07 with a young catching group.

 

I'm be more interested in how well he hits than how he calls a game. The pitcher can always shake him off if he doesn't like the signs.

[KingCubsFan]

Toronto is pretty weak at the catching department. They may ask for Barrett in return. In that case, would you do a Wells for Barrett deal? In my opinion I would. There are guys like Bengie Molina who could be signed cheap to replace Barrett behind the plate. Bengie is not the offensive player that Barrett is, but his defense is pretty solid.

 

it would be tempting. i wonder if the bo sox would give up kottaras for howry or eyre?

 

I dont think Hendry would do that deal. Hendry probably has to win now to keep his job. Kottaras needs more time to develop before he can become an elite catcher.

 

 

Does he have to be an elite catcher right now for the Cubs to win in that scenario?

 

I could deal with Kottaras and Bengie behind the plate. But, I think the cubs could do just as fine with Soto and Bengie.

I would think Hendry would look for a defense-first catcher to replace Barrett. Doesn't Kottaras have some defense questions?

[baseball7897]

Toronto is pretty weak at the catching department. They may ask for Barrett in return. In that case, would you do a Wells for Barrett deal? In my opinion I would. There are guys like Bengie Molina who could be signed cheap to replace Barrett behind the plate. Bengie is not the offensive player that Barrett is, but his defense is pretty solid.

 

it would be tempting. i wonder if the bo sox would give up kottaras for howry or eyre?

 

I dont think Hendry would do that deal. Hendry probably has to win now to keep his job. Kottaras needs more time to develop before he can become an elite catcher.

 

 

Does he have to be an elite catcher right now for the Cubs to win in that scenario?

 

I could deal with Kottaras and Bengie behind the plate. But, I think the cubs could do just as fine with Soto and Bengie.

I would think Hendry would look for a defense-first catcher to replace Barrett. Doesn't Kottaras have some defense questions?

 

Hendry would look for that defensive catcher to replace Barrett. Hendry would feel pretty good if he could add Bengie and Wells to the team. Hendry likes the defensive players.

[CuseCubFan69]

Who was the last team that won it all with a young catcher?

[KingCubsFan]

Who was the last team that won it all with a young catcher?

The Cardinals with Yadier Molina

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Toronto is pretty weak at the catching department. They may ask for Barrett in return. In that case, would you do a Wells for Barrett deal? In my opinion I would. There are guys like Bengie Molina who could be signed cheap to replace Barrett behind the plate. Bengie is not the offensive player that Barrett is, but his defense is pretty solid.

 

If Bengie could put up a offensive season like he did for Toronto this year, then I think it would be a good deal to consider. .284 Average 19HR 57RBI .319OBp. His OBP is pretty low, but I could deal with it if he puts up a .284 Average with 19HR and 57RBI.

 

No. Molina isn't the offensive player Barrett is and while once top defensively, he's slipping.

 

Trading Barrett for Wells doesn't improve the offense at all. Barrett is as productive a hitter as Wells is. Furthermore, it would be easier to add a productive CF bat than it would be to add a productive bat at C. No to trading Barrett for Wells.

[goonys evil twin]

Who was the last team that won it all with a young catcher?

The Cardinals with Yadier Molina

 

And before that, the Angels won with a pretty young Molina. The Yankees won when Posada was an inexperienced kid, Florida won with a young Charles Johnson. Atlanta won with a young Javy Lopez.

 

Aside from those, the Red Sox rose to serious contender in the late 90's when Varitek was young, same with Minnesota with AJ.

 

The wise old catcher is a baseball cliche, but it's pretty clear you don't need one to win.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper. Like I said before, Wells doesn't fit our circumstances. If he were already locked into a contract that paid him fairly, or if he was coming off a down year and we could get him cheaply. But neither of those are true, so if we target Wells we're going to pay more than his value to get him and then overpay in dollars to keep him. I like Vernon, but I don't like him as a target right now.

[goonys evil twin]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

 

Ack, that's the second time I've messed that up too.

 

Barrett hasn't been catching that long, and hasn't been hurt in 3 years. I think his positional value and the fact he'll be (much) cheaper to retain than Wells wins out over being further into his prime.

 

There's also the thing that making that trade makes it harder to improve the offense since finding a new catcher that can hit is much more difficult than upgrading CF.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

 

Ack, that's the second time I've messed that up too.

 

Barrett hasn't been catching that long, and hasn't been hurt in 3 years. I think his positional value and the fact he'll be (much) cheaper to retain than Wells wins out over being further into his prime.

 

There's also the thing that making that trade makes it harder to improve the offense since finding a new catcher that can hit is much more difficult than upgrading CF.

 

Furthermore, I think Barrett likes it here and I wouldn't be surprised to see him give the Cubs a "hometown" discount.

[goonys evil twin]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

 

Ack, that's the second time I've messed that up too.

 

Barrett hasn't been catching that long, and hasn't been hurt in 3 years. I think his positional value and the fact he'll be (much) cheaper to retain than Wells wins out over being further into his prime.

 

There's also the thing that making that trade makes it harder to improve the offense since finding a new catcher that can hit is much more difficult than upgrading CF.

 

Barrett has to been a catcher for long. He's logged nearly as many innings there as AJP, and is at the stage of his career, nearly 6000 innings, when lots of guys start breaking down. And how can you say he hasn't been hurt in 3 years? He was hurt multiple times this year, as well as last year. He was healthy in 2004, but he's missed time in just about every other season, and he had only logged about 3000 innings behind the plate before that season.

 

We have to stop pretending Barrett is relatively new to the catcher position. You have guys like Fisk and Rodriguez who lasted a long time as productive guys at the position, but they had the DH to rest themselves. Bench and Berra switched positions in their early 30's.

 

The Cubs have a decision with Barrett coming very soon. And the wise one might very well be to let somebody else squeeze the last bit of juice out of his catcher's frame, or move him to another position.

[USSoccer]

I think Barrett is a very valuable trading chip. I wouldn't hesitate to send him somewhere in the right deal.

[Elrhino]

Why are we trying to upgrade CF with Pie in the wings? Anyone?

 

I remember the Cubs passing on Jim Thome because Hee Seop Choi was waiting in the wings. Perhaps they remember that as well.

 

I also remember a lot of fans up in arms when we traded Lee and gave up Hee Seop, claiming we just took on salary for what will one day be equal production at the same position.

 

Uhh .... not quite.

[goonys evil twin]

Furthermore, I think Barrett likes it here and I wouldn't be surprised to see him give the Cubs a "hometown" discount.

 

I wouldn't expect it to be enough of a discount to offset that likelihood that in his 30's he will probably no longer be what he was in his 20's. That's the life of a catcher. They break down fast, or move positions. Barrett will be approaching 7000 innings behind the plate after next season. Guys don't last much past 5000-6000. Veritek is now at 6600, and breaking down (while Barrett missed as much time as him already this year).

 

My bad, Barrett is actually already at 6200, and should be well past 7000 after next season, unless he misses even more time than this year.

Edited November 3, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[USSoccer]

Why are we trying to upgrade CF with Pie in the wings? Anyone?

 

I remember the Cubs passing on Jim Thome because Hee Seop Choi was waiting in the wings. Perhaps they remember that as well.

 

I also remember a lot of fans up in arms when we traded Lee and gave up Hee Seop, claiming we just took on salary for what will one day be equal production at the same position.

 

Uhh .... not quite.

 

Hindsight=20/20

[Backtobanks]

I don't think Hendry is going to fill one hole by making another hole. I can't see Barrett going anywhere. As for people like Murton or Hill, I think you had better be talking about a real impact player (Cabrera, Arod, Tejada, etc.). With all of the holes the Cubs have, it doesn't make sense to fill a hole by opening another. I would think the Cubs would try to make trades using their young pitchers, their bullpen, Jones, Izturis/Cedeno, and prospects.

[mul21]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

 

Ack, that's the second time I've messed that up too.

 

Barrett hasn't been catching that long, and hasn't been hurt in 3 years. I think his positional value and the fact he'll be (much) cheaper to retain than Wells wins out over being further into his prime.

 

There's also the thing that making that trade makes it harder to improve the offense since finding a new catcher that can hit is much more difficult than upgrading CF.

 

Barrett has to been a catcher for long. He's logged nearly as many innings there as AJP, and is at the stage of his career, nearly 6000 innings, when lots of guys start breaking down. And how can you say he hasn't been hurt in 3 years? He was hurt multiple times this year, as well as last year. He was healthy in 2004, but he's missed time in just about every other season, and he had only logged about 3000 innings behind the plate before that season.

 

We have to stop pretending Barrett is relatively new to the catcher position. You have guys like Fisk and Rodriguez who lasted a long time as productive guys at the position, but they had the DH to rest themselves. Bench and Berra switched positions in their early 30's.

 

The Cubs have a decision with Barrett coming very soon. And the wise one might very well be to let somebody else squeeze the last bit of juice out of his catcher's frame, or move him to another position.

 

Barrett has been a ML catcher for a while, but hasn't been playing the position his entire life and getting constantly beat up like the other guys you mention. IIRC, he played a lot of 3B in the minors and didn't become a full time catcher until he was a couple years into his ML career. I think he may last a little longer than the avg. catcher and still be productive on offense for that reason. Plus, for whatever reason, his offense seems to be undervalued because he's not a great defensive catcher.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't think Hendry is going to fill one hole by making another hole. I can't see Barrett going anywhere.

 

What do you do with him after 2007? He'll be a free agent. Do you sign him to a deal comparable to Veritek's? Do you let him walk?

[frostwyrm]

I don't think Hendry is going to fill one hole by making another hole. I can't see Barrett going anywhere.

 

What do you do with him after 2007? He'll be a free agent. Do you sign him to a deal comparable to Veritek's? Do you let him walk?

 

There's an obvious way to handle it. Trade Barret and Z, who will be enormously expensive free agents after 2007. Their trade value is very high. Use it to get parts that will help in 2008. Forget about 2007.

 

Not saying Hendry will do this, but I would.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I keep hearing about Barrett for Wells and it doesn't make any sense. They put up similar offensive numbers, Barrett plays a more scarce offensive position, and he's signed longer and cheaper.

 

Both are free agents following this season.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say Wells, as a 28 y/o CF, has a better chance to stay highly productive, longer, than the 29 y/o C who has a long list of injuries and plays a position where guys break down quickly.

 

Ack, that's the second time I've messed that up too.

 

Barrett hasn't been catching that long, and hasn't been hurt in 3 years. I think his positional value and the fact he'll be (much) cheaper to retain than Wells wins out over being further into his prime.

 

There's also the thing that making that trade makes it harder to improve the offense since finding a new catcher that can hit is much more difficult than upgrading CF.

 

Barrett has to been a catcher for long. He's logged nearly as many innings there as AJP, and is at the stage of his career, nearly 6000 innings, when lots of guys start breaking down. And how can you say he hasn't been hurt in 3 years? He was hurt multiple times this year, as well as last year. He was healthy in 2004, but he's missed time in just about every other season, and he had only logged about 3000 innings behind the plate before that season.

 

We have to stop pretending Barrett is relatively new to the catcher position. You have guys like Fisk and Rodriguez who lasted a long time as productive guys at the position, but they had the DH to rest themselves. Bench and Berra switched positions in their early 30's.

 

The Cubs have a decision with Barrett coming very soon. And the wise one might very well be to let somebody else squeeze the last bit of juice out of his catcher's frame, or move him to another position.

 

Barrett isn't new to the position(in hindsight I worded my post poorly), but in terms of wear and tear on the body, the fact that he wasn't exclusively a catcher coming up is a big deal. AJP had 641 minor league games, and as far as I can tell nearly all of them were at catcher(baseball cube lists that as his position). Barrett on the other hand was a SS in rookie ball, then he caught for two seasons, and then he was a "C-3B" or "3B-C" for the remainder of his minor league career. That's at least 250 fewer games at the catching position than AJP, which isn't a small thing at all.

[goonys evil twin]

Barrett isn't new to the position(in hindsight I worded my post poorly), but in terms of wear and tear on the body, the fact that he wasn't exclusively a catcher coming up is a big deal. AJP had 641 minor league games, and as far as I can tell nearly all of them were at catcher(baseball cube lists that as his position). Barrett on the other hand was a SS in rookie ball, then he caught for two seasons, and then he was a "C-3B" or "3B-C" for the remainder of his minor league career. That's at least 250 fewer games at the catching position than AJP, which isn't a small thing at all.

 

I'm not sure being a c/3b is all that much more easy on the body than just being a catcher in the minors. There is a lot more use of DH's down there, and catchers often get to do that. That being said, 250 fewer games is meaningfuly, but it does not negate the 6200 major league innings, and the repeated injuries he's absorbed. I'm not saying he's going to fall apart today. I'm talking mostly about Barret post-2007, when he's a free agent with over 7000 innings behind the plate in the majors, and 31. Like Lee and Ramirez this past year, Barrett is a pending free agent. And I think he's a huge question.

[Backtobanks]

I don't think Hendry is going to fill one hole by making another hole. I can't see Barrett going anywhere.

 

What do you do with him after 2007? He'll be a free agent. Do you sign him to a deal comparable to Veritek's? Do you let him walk?

 

There's an obvious way to handle it. Trade Barret and Z, who will be enormously expensive free agents after 2007. Their trade value is very high. Use it to get parts that will help in 2008. Forget about 2007.

 

Not saying Hendry will do this, but I would.

 

The parts you had better be talking about should include the likes of Cabrera, Liriano, Santana, etc. and not somebody's prospect that turns into a AAAA star.

[soccer10k]

Why are we trying to upgrade CF with Pie in the wings? Anyone?

 

I remember the Cubs passing on Jim Thome because Hee Seop Choi was waiting in the wings. Perhaps they remember that as well.

 

I also remember a lot of fans up in arms when we traded Lee and gave up Hee Seop, claiming we just took on salary for what will one day be equal production at the same position.

 

Uhh .... not quite.

 

I obviously wasn't on this board when that happened but I was elated when the Cubs made that trade. I never thought Choi was that good and figured Lee would show a huge improvement in 2004 in coming to Chicago (I was a year off in that although I didn't see Lee being as good as he was in 2005).