eyre & howry

[RichHillIsABeast]

A bullpen of Dempster, Eyre, Wood, Wuertz, Howry, Ohman has the makings of a league best bullpen.

 

A bullpen of Dempster, Ohman, Wuertz, Wood, Aardsma, Rapada has the makings of an above average bullpen that costs $8M less.

 

I'll take whatever hit to the bullpen in exchange for an $8M bat or starting pitcher anyday.

 

IMO, that second bullpen would get torn up. You don't create a successful 'pen by stringing together some arms with good stats. Who would you have as closer, setup men, loogy, etc?

 

Not to be an ass, but did you read my post? Dempster is still the closer, first off. Secondly, I made the point the Wuertz and Ohman were in the setup and loogy roles respectively in 2005....in what was a better bullpen than the one in 2006.

 

Well maybe I didn't make the exact point, but still they were in those roles in 2005 and the 2005 pen was miles better.

 

If you don't make that exact point, then don't get upset when someone points out the lack of clarity in your post. <--- Not trying to be an ass.

 

So you have:

 

Closer - Dempster

Setup - Wuertz

Setup - Rapada

LOOGY - Ohman

Long Relief - Aardsma

Middle Relief - Wood

 

Is that right? I'm just trying to be clear about the roles.

[rawaction]

A bullpen of Dempster, Eyre, Wood, Wuertz, Howry, Ohman has the makings of a league best bullpen.

 

A bullpen of Dempster, Ohman, Wuertz, Wood, Aardsma, Rapada has the makings of an above average bullpen that costs $8M less.

 

I'll take whatever hit to the bullpen in exchange for an $8M bat or starting pitcher anyday.

 

IMO, that second bullpen would get torn up. You don't create a successful 'pen by stringing together some arms with good stats. Who would you have as closer, setup men, loogy, etc?

 

Not to be an ass, but did you read my post? Dempster is still the closer, first off. Secondly, I made the point the Wuertz and Ohman were in the setup and loogy roles respectively in 2005....in what was a better bullpen than the one in 2006.

 

Well maybe I didn't make the exact point, but still they were in those roles in 2005 and the 2005 pen was miles better.

 

If you don't make that exact point, then don't get upset when someone points out the lack of clarity in your post. <--- Not trying to be an ass.

 

So you have:

 

Closer - Dempster

Setup - Wuertz

Setup - Rapada

LOOGY - Ohman

Long Relief - Aardsma

Middle Relief - Wood

 

Is that right? I'm just trying to be clear about the roles.

 

I don't know why roles are important. But I would switch Wood and Rapada.

 

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts. And while it seems the best bullpens are consisting of "failed starters" you have to take in considersation "Stuff" and "other intangibles" also. Wainwright and Johnson both are considered to having "GREAT" stuff. So, to honestly think to throw a "failed starter" into the bullpen is the best bet to build a bullpen, is abit naive. It needs a little of both to succeed.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts.

 

Eyre wasn't good, and he was terrible for his contract.

[rawaction]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts. And while it seems the best bullpens are consisting of "failed starters" you have to take in considersation "Stuff" and "other intangibles" also. Wainwright and Johnson both are considered to having "GREAT" stuff. So, to honestly think to throw a "failed starter" into the bullpen is the best bet to build a bullpen, is abit naive. It needs a little of both to succeed.

 

Eyre was not good. He gave up a crapload of baserunners. He gave up a .265 BAA. He walked a ton of people. Gave up an almost .200 ISOP. He had the worse season for him since 2000, almost by far.

 

I agree you need balance, that's why I wouldn't completely get rid of Eyre, Howry and Dempster. But that's also why (along with the numbers above) I would keep Novoa in the Cubs pen over Eyre and or Dempster.

[RichHillIsABeast]

A bullpen of Dempster, Eyre, Wood, Wuertz, Howry, Ohman has the makings of a league best bullpen.

 

A bullpen of Dempster, Ohman, Wuertz, Wood, Aardsma, Rapada has the makings of an above average bullpen that costs $8M less.

 

I'll take whatever hit to the bullpen in exchange for an $8M bat or starting pitcher anyday.

 

IMO, that second bullpen would get torn up. You don't create a successful 'pen by stringing together some arms with good stats. Who would you have as closer, setup men, loogy, etc?

 

Not to be an ass, but did you read my post? Dempster is still the closer, first off. Secondly, I made the point the Wuertz and Ohman were in the setup and loogy roles respectively in 2005....in what was a better bullpen than the one in 2006.

 

Well maybe I didn't make the exact point, but still they were in those roles in 2005 and the 2005 pen was miles better.

 

If you don't make that exact point, then don't get upset when someone points out the lack of clarity in your post. <--- Not trying to be an ass.

 

So you have:

 

Closer - Dempster

Setup - Wuertz

Setup - Rapada

LOOGY - Ohman

Long Relief - Aardsma

Middle Relief - Wood

 

Is that right? I'm just trying to be clear about the roles.

 

I don't know why roles are important. But I would switch Wood and Rapada.

 

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

Roles are very important. For example, you have Wood as a setup guy. He isn't going to be able to pitch on consecutive days b/c of his shoulder.

 

Dempster...well, he was a one hit wonder. Now we get to enjoy those walks in key situations. When a little bad luck hits (bloopers, shoddy D) you don't just give up the single, you put guys in scoring position or give up runs. Not good.

 

Aardsma is also iffy, IMO, but I'd stick him in there anyway and hope he performs. His disappearing velo last season worries me.

 

No. You can't just throw arms together. Would you stick Ohman in as a setup guy with his horrible track record against righties? No way. Guys have roles.

 

Ideally you want your stongest reliever closing games. This definitely isn't Dempster. I'd take Howry, Eyre, and Wuertz over him in a heartbeat.

 

The next strongest should be your setup guys. Ideally you want 7+ innings out of your starter so your setup guys come in, pitch their innings (or batters depending on their L/R splits) and get the ball to your closer. Woody has the stuff to setup (or close or start or conquer the world) but stamina and health is a huge issue. No setting up for Woody, at least not the first half of the season until we see how his arm responds to the pen.

[CubColtPacer]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts.

 

Eyre wasn't good, and he was terrible for his contract.

 

Erye was great before his injury in August.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts.

 

Eyre wasn't good, and he was terrible for his contract.

 

You're looking at overall numbers. Eyre was pretty darn good until August when his physical fitness caught up with him. Once his back and hammy started bothering him, his delivery really changed. He wasn't finishing like he was. Dude needs to get in shape this offseason.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts.

 

Eyre wasn't good, and he was terrible for his contract.

 

Erye was great before his injury in August.

 

He got progressively worse as the season went along.

 

April/May: 27 IP, 1.18 WHIP

June/July: 21 IP, 1.38 WHIP

Aug/Sept: 13.1 IP, 2.25 WHIP

 

And you can't say that he performed admirably for his contract and then try to excuse poor performance due to injury. His performance is what it is. Even if you're saying he should improve because he was hurt, then it takes me back to the point that he's 35 next year, and the weight/conditioning/injury concerns aren't going to go away, and his quotes on the matter don't inspire much confidence of him improving upon it

[rawaction]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Who's your closer next year then, RichHillIsABeast?

 

(For the record, I agree with everything you said, raw...outside of the Novoa thing.)

Edited October 26, 2006 by CaliforniaRaisin

[RichHillIsABeast]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

That's not going to happen with the Chicago Cubs. Outside the box is not their thing.

 

Piniella would use your pen like any other pen with traditionally defined roles. 90%+ of managers would do the same thing.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Who's your closer next year then, RichHillIsABeast?

 

I wanted BJ Ryan in the worst way last offseason.

 

But for next season, I'd ditch Dempster and go with Wuertz. If he hit a long slump, Howry or Eyre would be there to save the day (Eyre was pretty filty before his injuries).

 

There are no stud closers in the FA market. If Lidge became available on the trade market, I'd be all over that.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Fair enough, I have no problem with Wuertz closing. But what do you do with Dempster and his contract?

[rawaction]

Who's your closer next year then, RichHillIsABeast?

 

(For the record, I agree with everything you said, raw...outside of the Novoa thing.)

 

Seriously, what's wrong with Novoa, besides consistency? He was great down the stretch in August and Sept. He was better than Eyre and Dempster over the course of the entire season. He gave up a crapload of HRs, but 12 of 15 were before August 1.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I was frustrated with Dusty's usage pattern of him (I thought he was used way too much for being so inconsistent) and how he was in the big leagues ahead of Wuertz. I had no problem with him being ahead of Aardsma in the pecking order and being with the big league club, which I think others didn't like.

 

You'd be hard pressed to find relievers who were worse than Dempster last year. :)

[RichHillIsABeast]

Fair enough, I have no problem with Wuertz closing. But what do you do with Dempster and his contract?

 

I hope Dempster gets his stuff together for ST and then I eat almost all of his contract for prospects.

 

Dempster will rebound enough to entice other teams, but I'm sick and tired of him costing us wins b/c he has control issues. Yeah, eating his contract sucks, but the wins we pick up w/o him on the '07 and '08 teams makes up for it. If he pulls the same crap next season (and we are contending) several blown saves can cost us the playoffs.

 

Well, I doubt Piniella will play favorites like Dusty did, so maybe he'd just get the hook after his 4th blown save in a row.

[TruffleShuffle]

Who's your closer next year then, RichHillIsABeast?

 

(For the record, I agree with everything you said, raw...outside of the Novoa thing.)

 

Seriously, what's wrong with Novoa, besides consistency? He was great down the stretch in August and Sept. He was better than Eyre and Dempster over the course of the entire season. He gave up a crapload of HRs, but 12 of 15 were before August 1.

 

His peripherals are nothing to get excited about. Bad HR rate, a hit per inning, 4 walks per 9 innings, just over 6 strikeouts per 9 innings. None of that suggests a guy who is about to break through. Yes, he pitched better in August and September, but there are real questions about sample size there, and if he pitched well in those months, why was he so horrible in the other ones?

 

Still, even after the ASB he gave up 36 hits in 34 innings, walked 12 and struck out 22. Those numbers are just not very good, even if you ignore his totally craptacular first half of the season.

[baseball7897]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

You're joking right?

 

So you would rather have Julian Tavarez pitching in the 9th rather than Papelbon?

[Flames24Rulz]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

You're joking right?

 

So you would rather have Julian Tavarez pitching in the 9th rather than Papelbon?

 

Agreed.

[abuck1220]

Just wow. If you're trading Howry, Eyre, and Ohman your bullpen wont be a strength. You would be turning that bullpen into a weakness.

 

and how far did that 'strength' take the cubs last year?

 

I never understood the concept of turning a strength into a weakness.

 

That strength didnt take the Cubs too far last year, because eveything else about the Cubs was a complete joke.

 

exactly. in order to fix the million weaknesses on the team, you may have to give up some of your 'strength,' which, by the way, wasn't that strong at all.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

You're joking right?

 

So you would rather have Julian Tavarez pitching in the 9th rather than Papelbon?

 

No, what he's saying is that if he's winning by 1 run in the bottom of the 8th, he'd rather bring in his closer to face the heart of the team's order, then save a worse reliever for a lesser part of the order and give us a chance to increase the lead. He's saying put your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. Sometimes that's in the 9th, sometimes it's the 7th.

[nilodnayr]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

You're joking right?

 

So you would rather have Julian Tavarez pitching in the 9th rather than Papelbon?

 

No, what he's saying is that if he's winning by 1 run in the bottom of the 8th, he'd rather bring in his closer to face the heart of the team's order, then save a worse reliever for a lesser part of the order and give us a chance to increase the lead. He's saying put your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. Sometimes that's in the 9th, sometimes it's the 7th.

 

Moot point, the BoSox will either be using Papelbon or Tavarez as a starter next year. Yes, Tavarez possibly going into the season with a spot in the rotation ala Lowe. He and Tavarez are somewhat similar and it worked for Boston before.

 

And if I had my copy of moneyball within arms reach of my bed I would point you to the section which describes what raw and TT are talking about. Unfortunately when the BoSox did this a few years ago it failed miserably and they were lambasted in the media for it, so I don't see any teams going out and (full out) doing this any time soon.

[soccer10k]

Oh and who says you can't throw a bunch of arms together to make a good bullpen? The Cubs went out and spent big money on Eyre and Howry. The Cards gave bullpen roles to Wainright, Thompson and Hancock. The best pens in the ML were full of cheap failed starters.

 

But to be fair, Howry/Eyre performed admirably especially for their contracts.

 

Eyre wasn't good, and he was terrible for his contract.

 

You're looking at overall numbers. Eyre was pretty darn good until August when his physical fitness caught up with him. Once his back and hammy started bothering him, his delivery really changed. He wasn't finishing like he was. Dude needs to get in shape this offseason.

 

And what makes you think that the same thing isn't going to happen again next year?

[soccer10k]

Ah, that's where we differ. I don't want my best reliever in the 9th inning throwing with a 2 or 3-run lead, which happens more times than not. I want my best reliever getting the ball in the 7th inning of a 1-run game in order to make it to the 9th with a lead. I want a pen full of guys who can get the ball in any situation and not fail miserably because they are too stuck in their defined roles.

 

You're joking right?

 

So you would rather have Julian Tavarez pitching in the 9th rather than Papelbon?

 

No, what he's saying is that if he's winning by 1 run in the bottom of the 8th, he'd rather bring in his closer to face the heart of the team's order, then save a worse reliever for a lesser part of the order and give us a chance to increase the lead. He's saying put your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. Sometimes that's in the 9th, sometimes it's the 7th.

 

Like in the ALCS Game 4 when Ken Macha brought Huston Street in with the bases loaded and 1 out in the 7th. Yes, I realize it's not the best example because Street gave up the game winning HR to Magglio in the ninth but the A's might not have got to the bottom of the ninth if Macha didn't bring Street into the game in the seventh.