According to the Score AM670 ,the cubs have a new manager...

[CuseCubFan69]

Funny nobody has mentioned Lou's salary as an issue. I expect he'll make about what Dusty made: $4-5M. That's $4-5M that won't be spent on players.

 

All just part of Hendry's misguided assumption that a big name manager can make the team better.

 

Hendry has no plan or he's being told what to do. If this does happen I have to hope I'm pleasently surprised.

 

If he's being told what to do, I have to assume he'd be hiring Girardi. After how hot and heavy he was for Baker, Lou is just too perfect a fit to be his next passion. Similar to Baker on the field, but a big enough change in the clubhouse to justify the move.

 

I'm not so sure of that. Girardi could be a guy that could win now and develop and Lou is a win now guy and IMO that's what the new Prez wants. Plus, Lou is popular with Cub fans.

[goonys evil twin]

I agree. The amount of crying on this board has reached a epic-like proportion. Any of the 4 above mentioned managers I'd would be fine with. Piniella is just as proven as Bochy and Brenley so what's the problem here?

 

And the level of whining about crying on this board is just as bad.

 

I don't really care about proven managers. I don't care about proven veterans. I want productive players. If it took Hendry 4 months to hire Lou Piniella to be the manager (not to mention 4 years to determine Baker was a mistake), I can't have much confidence in Hendry's ability to get the right players.

 

 

I much more worried about the level of attention Hendry seems to be paying to who will manage this team, which I believe will be inverse to the level of effort he will put into putting better players on the field.

 

 

To top it off, hiring Lou is a sign that Hendry doesn't think there was anything wrong with his old plan. If he doesn't realize there was a problem with relying on a big name manager to make a positive difference, is there really any hope that he realizes having overaggressive hitters who refused to walk and pitchers who couldn't throw strikes is a problem?

Edited October 16, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[SCCubbieFAN]

Welcome the white Dusty Baker. Ugh.

 

Oh, and if the Cubs manage to be successful in 2007 it will not be because of Lou Piniella.

 

If Lou is hired and constructs a line up that leads off with a high OBP player instead of just a speedy player (Murton), bats another high OBP player second, moves Jones to center, and benches players who commit stupid fundamental mistakes and the Cubs succeed, what will your opinion be then?

[soapy]

Welcome the white Dusty Baker. Ugh.

 

Oh, and if the Cubs manage to be successful in 2007 it will not be because of Lou Piniella.

 

I will go on record and agree with this right now.

 

Way to cover your butt. The comments of some on this great board are starting to diminish the quality it once had. Too many people jumping on the opinions of the outspoken.

 

I think if the Cubs win in '07, it will be 95% due to the players and 5% to the manager, no matter who they hire!!

 

I totally agree. I stated in one post that I doubt that there would be a swing of more than 3 games no matter whether they hired Piniella, Bochy, Girardi, or Brenley. Whether we want to admit it or not, these guys are all competent enough to win with the right players.

 

I agree. The amount of crying on this board has reached a epic-like proportion. Any of the 4 above mentioned managers I'd would be fine with. Piniella is just as proven as Bochy and Brenley so what's the problem here?

First of all, I do generally agree that the manager hired is not the biggest issue facing this team. The players are what is going to matter.

 

Having said that, I think the reason you are seeing people react so negatively to the Piniella hiring is that, to many, it symbolizes more of the same. Hendry is making the "safe" pick. He's going to say, "Lou is a proven winner", he's "been there before". Lou is (seemingly) a manager with a strategy style very similar to Baker's. Hendry has been following the same path the last several years and the team continues to get worse. Instead of realizing his strategy is not a succesful one, he just plugs in different names into the same strategy.

 

I think many agree that hiring Lou is not the end of the world, but I think it shows that Hendry is business as usual (strategy wise) and that is disapointing to many (including me).

[frostwyrm]

Funny nobody has mentioned Lou's salary as an issue. I expect he'll make about what Dusty made: $4-5M. That's $4-5M that won't be spent on players.

 

All just part of Hendry's misguided assumption that a big name manager can make the team better.

 

Hendry has no plan or he's being told what to do. If this does happen I have to hope I'm pleasently surprised.

 

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

[CuseCubFan69]

On the subject of Hendry's terrible personel decisons. I just don't understand everyone's fascination with ripping Hendry's every move. I just dont see it. other than Neifi and Glendon Rusch--what are his other bad moves?

 

J Jones? Howry? Eyre? Trading for ARAM? Pierre?

 

Someone PLEASE explain to me all of the terrible moves that Hendry has made, because I just dont see them.

 

Do you think a team loses 90 games on accident? It's a series of moves. Hendry re-upped Alfonseca with a big raise when it was unwarrented and unnecessary. He brought in guys like Macias, Perez, Rusch and Estes who all sucked and received way to much playing time. He's overpaid for mediocrity repeatedly, and avoided the opportunity to acquire difference makers, unless those players came with an asterisk (like the banged up Nomar, or the getting dumped by a payroll slasher Ramirez and Lee).

 

He focused on the bullpen last year when the lineup and rotation were huge question marks, then he filled in the lineup and rotation with mediocre players like Jacque Jones and an injured Wade Miller.

 

The Cubs have lost a ton of games with Hendry. That doesn't happen if all but 2 of your moves are good.

 

I think with Hendry (and what Goony is alluding to) it is more of what he hasn't done than what he has. Most of his really bad moves that have been talked about are really just bench moves or things like that which have little bearing on a ballclub. In the past two years though, for whatever reason, Hendry has not brought a single impact player to the ballclub. The closest are Jones, Erye, and Howry, who are all decent to nice pieces of a ballclub, but none of them are an impact player. This team needs more impact players to be highly successful, and Hendry has to go out and get them this offseason. If he does that, the little moves will be seen as much less important. Right now, they have to be seen as important, because that's all we've seen for 2 1/2 years now.

 

Maybe Soriano will give Hendry a blank check? Hendry's lack of vision has trapped him in pursuit of major impact players and I do not expect that to change. I think opportunity has to hit him in the face.

[goonys evil twin]

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

 

Tickets are not sold based on managerial hires.

[CuseCubFan69]

Funny nobody has mentioned Lou's salary as an issue. I expect he'll make about what Dusty made: $4-5M. That's $4-5M that won't be spent on players.

 

All just part of Hendry's misguided assumption that a big name manager can make the team better.

 

Hendry has no plan or he's being told what to do. If this does happen I have to hope I'm pleasently surprised.

 

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

 

I agree. If the Cubs suck the fans will be entertained by a dirt kicking Lou.

[goonys evil twin]

I agree. If the Cubs suck the fans will be entertained by a dirt kicking Lou.

 

Some may be placated by an angry manager who "won't accept losing", but Piniella staging implosions isn't going to ease the anger caused by more losing.

[CuseCubFan69]

I agree. If the Cubs suck the fans will be entertained by a dirt kicking Lou.

 

Some may be placated by an angry manager who "won't accept losing", but Piniella staging implosions isn't going to ease the anger caused by more losing.

 

The thing is Goony is that it'll give the illusion that their doing something, showing that emotion that many look for. Go look at the pro Lou posts on here and other places and this is what many want, classic looks over substance.

[Balsa]

*sigh*

[frostwyrm]

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

 

Tickets are not sold based on managerial hires.

 

At the risk of sounding snooty, I'll say the average ticketbuyer is somewhat less sophisticated than the average NSBB poster.

[cl smooth]

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

 

Tickets are not sold based on managerial hires.

 

At the risk of sounding snooty, I'll say the average ticketbuyer is somewhat less sophisticated than the average NSBB poster.

 

in defense of the average ticketbuyer, how many people do you know of that buy tickets to ANY sporting event just to see the manager/coach? i can't think of anyone i know, sports nut or otherwise.

[soapy]

Could be orders from above. I'm sure the beancounters don't mind spending $4-5M on a big name manager because it's a cost-effective way to put butts in the seats, but I really don't think Hendry needed his arm twisted to hire Lou.

 

Tickets are not sold based on managerial hires.

 

At the risk of sounding snooty, I'll say the average ticketbuyer is somewhat less sophisticated than the average NSBB poster.

I agree. I don't want to sound "snooty" either, but I have a handful of friends who are very excited about Piniella and will expect a contender next year based on that alone (with no player upgrades).

[Wheelimus]

I find it funny that Jacque keeps being brought up as a failure, but he posted a line this year that was the second best of his career.

 

Even more mind blowing when you see his splits.

 

Lefty - .234/.261/.416

Righy - .303/.358/.528

 

So, really, that's my big question on Lou. Is he going to see those splits and have the nerve to platoon Jacque? Both the nerve to demand the player to put with him (even if it's in house like Restovich) and the nerve to tell it matter of factly to Jacque.

 

Because with the right talent, Uncle Lou is more than capable enough to win. He's done it quite a bit in his career.

 

It will all come down to what they give him. To me that requires radically changing the outfield. The only options I see barring trade are Carlos Lee (shifting Jacque to center) or Soriano (who would play center). And it's going to requires oversaturating Lou with pitching. We need one of Zito or Schmidt, and at least another second tier pitching Free Agent (Padilla or otherwise) to have a good chance.

[biittner77]

I'm not sure how hiring say, Joe Girardi, would be a sign that the Cubs don't want to win now.

 

I'm also not willing to give Hendry any credit for hiring someone to "win now" as that's as much an effort to save his own job as anything else. Furthermore, it could potentially make a bad situation worse. When the GM is desparate to win now that's when the worst trades tend to transpire. Garland for Karchner for example.

 

Let me ask you -- If your the owner of the Cubs and (by all indications) are about to spend 115 mil. wouldn't you want to bring in a season vet manager opposed to a 2nd year manager?

 

I was just using Girardi as an example. While we're on the subject, would the Cubs increase payroll if Girardi was hired?

 

I'm less concerned with Lou Piniella being the Cubs manager than I am with Hendry being the GM.

 

Is it really a good idea to try to fix what seems like a very broken Cubs team in one off season? Of course everyone wants the Cubs to win next season but at what cost?

[soapy]

I find it funny that Jacque keeps being brought up as a failure, but he posted a line this year that was the second best of his career.

 

Even more mind blowing when you see his splits.

 

Lefty - .234/.261/.416

Righy - .303/.358/.528

 

So, really, that's my big question on Lou. Is he going to see those splits and have the nerve to platoon Jacque? Both the nerve to demand the player to put with him (even if it's in house like Restovich) and the nerve to tell it matter of factly to Jacque.

 

Because with the right talent, Uncle Lou is more than capable enough to win. He's done it quite a bit in his career.

 

It will all come down to what they give him. To me that requires radically changing the outfield. The only options I see barring trade are Carlos Lee (shifting Jacque to center) or Soriano (who would play center). And it's going to requires oversaturating Lou with pitching. We need one of Zito or Schmidt, and at least another second tier pitching Free Agent (Padilla or otherwise) to have a good chance.

Jones outperformed my expectations (which were quite low). But as you stated, it's one of the best years of his career. The question now is, can he be expected to repeat them (especially for two years) and will he be put into a proper platoon?

[CubColtPacer]

Welcome the white Dusty Baker. Ugh.

 

Oh, and if the Cubs manage to be successful in 2007 it will not be because of Lou Piniella.

 

I will go on record and agree with this right now.

 

Way to cover your butt. The comments of some on this great board are starting to diminish the quality it once had. Too many people jumping on the opinions of the outspoken.

 

I think if the Cubs win in '07, it will be 95% due to the players and 5% to the manager, no matter who they hire!!

 

I totally agree. I stated in one post that I doubt that there would be a swing of more than 3 games no matter whether they hired Piniella, Bochy, Girardi, or Brenley. Whether we want to admit it or not, these guys are all competent enough to win with the right players.

 

I agree. The amount of crying on this board has reached a epic-like proportion. Any of the 4 above mentioned managers I'd would be fine with. Piniella is just as proven as Bochy and Brenley so what's the problem here?

 

Having said that, I think the reason you are seeing people react so negatively to the Piniella hiring is that, to many, it symbolizes more of the same. Hendry is making the "safe" pick. He's going to say, "Lou is a proven winner", he's "been there before". Lou is (seemingly) a manager with a strategy style very similar to Baker's.

 

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue. I've been going back to some of Piniella's Seattle teams in the mid 90's (I've been selecting random years). First, Piniella liked to bat Joey Cora leadoff. Cora had decent speed (one year I'm looking at he had 13 SB) but what he was was the teams highest OBP guy without slugging. In fact, their top 5 OBP guys batted in the first 5 spots in the order, and 3 of those were their top slugging players as well. (this is 1998)

 

Looking through some other years, it seems to be much of the same thing. Lou seems like he will most of the time fill out a proper lineup. Also, look at the BA/OBP numbers of most of his players (everyone with over 300 AB's): for example, here's the 2000 team:

 

.285/.392

.245/.353

.247/.316

.316/.420

.238/.362

.267/.365

.253/.361

.324/.423

.275/.351

 

So, that's only 2 players out of 9 who don't have at least a 98 point higher OBP than BA (and those 2 have a 69 and 76, which is still much, much better than our squad) and 8 of the 9 have an OBP of .350 or higher. To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

[goonys evil twin]

I find it funny that Jacque keeps being brought up as a failure, but he posted a line this year that was the second best of his career.

 

I find it funny that people think Jacque having a near career year negates the negatives in his contract. Jacque is a mediocre ballplayer. Just because he had nearly the best season of his mediocre career doesn't change that fact. Plus, it's a 3 year contract. Having one good season doesn't make up for the remaining two.

 

The Greg Maddux contract was not good just because he put up a good first year for just $6m in 2004. It was bad becasue they paid him $18m for two mediocre years in 2005 and 2006.

[soapy]

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue. I've been going back to some of Piniella's Seattle teams in the mid 90's (I've been selecting random years). First, Piniella liked to bat Joey Cora leadoff. Cora had decent speed (one year I'm looking at he had 13 SB) but what he was was the teams highest OBP guy without slugging. In fact, their top 5 OBP guys batted in the first 5 spots in the order, and 3 of those were their top slugging players as well. (this is 1998)

 

Looking through some other years, it seems to be much of the same thing. Lou seems like he will most of the time fill out a proper lineup. Also, look at the BA/OBP numbers of most of his players (everyone with over 300 AB's): for example, here's the 2000 team:

 

.285/.392

.245/.353

.247/.316

.316/.420

.238/.362

.267/.365

.253/.361

.324/.423

.275/.351

 

So, that's only 2 players out of 9 who don't have at least a 98 point higher OBP than BA (and those 2 have a 69 and 76, which is still much, much better than our squad) and 8 of the 9 have an OBP of .350 or higher. To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

Some of his decisions in Tampa Bay may be clouding my judgement, but it's hard to act like they didn't happen. Also, his pitcher usage has me worried. I'd say that is probably my biggest concern when seeking to hire a manager.

[CuseCubFan69]

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue. I've been going back to some of Piniella's Seattle teams in the mid 90's (I've been selecting random years). First, Piniella liked to bat Joey Cora leadoff. Cora had decent speed (one year I'm looking at he had 13 SB) but what he was was the teams highest OBP guy without slugging. In fact, their top 5 OBP guys batted in the first 5 spots in the order, and 3 of those were their top slugging players as well. (this is 1998)

 

Looking through some other years, it seems to be much of the same thing. Lou seems like he will most of the time fill out a proper lineup. Also, look at the BA/OBP numbers of most of his players (everyone with over 300 AB's): for example, here's the 2000 team:

 

.285/.392

.245/.353

.247/.316

.316/.420

.238/.362

.267/.365

.253/.361

.324/.423

.275/.351

 

So, that's only 2 players out of 9 who don't have at least a 98 point higher OBP than BA (and those 2 have a 69 and 76, which is still much, much better than our squad) and 8 of the 9 have an OBP of .350 or higher. To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

Some of his decisions in Tampa Bay may be clouding my judgement, but it's hard to act like they didn't happen. Also, his pitcher usage has me worried. I'd say that is probably my biggest concern when seeking to hire a manager.

 

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

[BigbadB]

for example, here's the 2000 team:

 

.285/.392

.245/.353

.247/.316

.316/.420

.238/.362

.267/.365

.253/.361

.324/.423

.275/.351

 

So, that's only 2 players out of 9 who don't have at least a 98 point higher OBP than BA (and those 2 have a 69 and 76, which is still much, much better than our squad) and 8 of the 9 have an OBP of .350 or higher. To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

 

To get that kind of results, that team had to be CONstructed of guys who already had the ability to get on base. That has little/nothing to do with the manager. That's all on Hendry.

 

Instead of signing or trading for guys like Neifi, Bynum, etc... you steer clear of the guys who will drag down the team offensively.

 

Baker had decent OBP guys on the team. He refused to bat them at the top of the order. I don't know what Piniella will do, but ultimately, that's the one way he can have a negative or positive impact on the overall offensive production.

 

I turned on the Tigers game the other day, and there was Neifi Perez batting 2nd. A lot, and I do mean a lot, of managers just do not get the whole OBP concept.

[Soriano12]

If he promises not to bat Izturis 2nd, I'll already be a fan of his.

[goonys evil twin]

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue.

 

To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

 

It's not just a lineup issue. There are other things, like giving up outs with unnecessary sacrifices, using worthless veterans over unproven rookies who might be able to do a better job for less money. Or wearing out young arms and putting more emphasis on winning today's game than saving a kid pitcher.

 

If Hendry can give Piniella a roster lined with all stars, future hall of famers and steroid enhanced super freaks, like he had in Seattle, then I expect good things. But a lot of what annoyed me about Baker is still evident in Piniella.

[CuseCubFan69]

If he promises not to bat Izturis 2nd, I'll already be a fan of his.

 

Even if Izturis leads off instead? If the Cubs don't get the proverbial leadoff guy I'm curious if Lou or who ever the new manager is would have the stones to bat Murton leadoff.