According to the Score AM670 ,the cubs have a new manager...

[BigbadB]

If he promises not to bat Izturis 2nd, I'll already be a fan of his.

 

If he promises to keep Izturis as strictly a bench player, I might turn into a fan of his.

[goonys evil twin]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

He apparantly tried to use Kazmir on short rest to win one last game to get to the meaningless goal of 70 wins one year. That's a sign of a manager with misplaced priorities.

[Banedon]

So the Tribune said Monday, Suntimes says Tuesday, and Daily Herald says Wednesday.

[goonys evil twin]

So the Tribune said Monday, Suntimes says Tuesday, and Daily Herald says Wednesday.

 

I'm guessing that's based off of when they think the NLCS will be over.

[CuseCubFan69]

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue.

 

To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

 

It's not just a lineup issue. There are other things, like giving up outs with unnecessary sacrifices, using worthless veterans over unproven rookies who might be able to do a better job for less money. Or wearing out young arms and putting more emphasis on winning today's game than saving a kid pitcher.

 

If Hendry can give Piniella a roster lined with all stars, future hall of famers and steroid enhanced super freaks, like he had in Seattle, then I expect good things. But a lot of what annoyed me about Baker is still evident in Piniella.

 

If Lou is playing AGone type at 2nd instead of Theriot/Fontenot I won't be a happy camper. I'm not so sure about his burning out the arms though, did he do that in Seattle or Tampa?

[Soriano12]

If he promises not to bat Izturis 2nd, I'll already be a fan of his.

 

Even if Izturis leads off instead? If the Cubs don't get the proverbial leadoff guy I'm curious if Lou or who ever the new manager is would have the stones to bat Murton leadoff.

 

He is not gonna bat Izturis leadoff.

 

Hendry may be a moron, but if he doesn't re-sign 4-3, he will get someone for the leadoff hole.

 

I am a fan of getting Dave Roberts(provided he and Barret can kiss and make-up) who would come at a reasonable price and could bridge the gap for Felix Pie.

[CuseCubFan69]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

He apparantly tried to use Kazmir on short rest to win one last game to get to the meaningless goal of 70 wins one year. That's a sign of a manager with misplaced priorities.

 

That ain't good.

[CuseCubFan69]

If he promises not to bat Izturis 2nd, I'll already be a fan of his.

 

Even if Izturis leads off instead? If the Cubs don't get the proverbial leadoff guy I'm curious if Lou or who ever the new manager is would have the stones to bat Murton leadoff.

 

He is not gonna bat Izturis leadoff.

 

Hendry may be a moron, but if he doesn't re-sign 4-3, he will get someone for the leadoff hole.

 

I am a fan of getting Dave Roberts(provided he and Barret can kiss and make-up) who would come at a reasonable price and could bridge the gap for Felix Pie.

 

If the Cubs get a Preston Wilson type for CF, that will eliminate any of the proto speed guys and Izturis could be the choice to lead off. Hendry has a way of painting himself into a corner.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

http://fireloupiniella.blogspot.com/

 

already....

 

Sweet.

 

BadKermit is a poster here.

[goonys evil twin]

If Lou is playing AGone type at 2nd instead of Theriot/Fontenot I won't be a happy camper. I'm not so sure about his burning out the arms though, did he do that in Seattle or Tampa?

 

I have no definitive opinion on his pitcher usage, unlike with Baker, when I was convinced of bad things to come.

 

However, in Seattle Lou seemed to have a very veteran staff most of the time. He did have a young Freddy Garcia and Gil Meche, two guys who lost effectiveness in their mid-20's. But I'm not so sure about his usage.

[Laura]

Funny nobody has mentioned Lou's salary as an issue. I expect he'll make about what Dusty made: $4-5M. That's $4-5M that won't be spent on players.

 

Levine said on Saturday? that the rumor was 3 years, $3M/per.

[Soriano12]

a firepinella site already? Wow.

 

people have too much time on their hands.

[Pinktermite]

Again, I'll make the argument that we can't prove...one way or another...that a manager's usage of a pitcher early in his career has any bearing on his future.

 

Kerry Wood was injury prone PRIOR to 2003...Prior himself is anomalous, in that he had some freak injuries and then seemed to turn into a pansy.

 

I don't advocate using Z for 120 odd pitches at the end of the season, but if the cubs were in the race and had a crappy bullpen (like they had in 2003), then ride him like there's no tomorrow.

 

You disagree, Goony, I'm sure...but that's okay.

[CubColtPacer]

The thing I don't understand is the theory that Lou has a strategy style similar to Baker's.

 

First is the lineup issue. I've been going back to some of Piniella's Seattle teams in the mid 90's (I've been selecting random years). First, Piniella liked to bat Joey Cora leadoff. Cora had decent speed (one year I'm looking at he had 13 SB) but what he was was the teams highest OBP guy without slugging. In fact, their top 5 OBP guys batted in the first 5 spots in the order, and 3 of those were their top slugging players as well. (this is 1998)

 

Looking through some other years, it seems to be much of the same thing. Lou seems like he will most of the time fill out a proper lineup. Also, look at the BA/OBP numbers of most of his players (everyone with over 300 AB's): for example, here's the 2000 team:

 

.285/.392

.245/.353

.247/.316

.316/.420

.238/.362

.267/.365

.253/.361

.324/.423

.275/.351

 

So, that's only 2 players out of 9 who don't have at least a 98 point higher OBP than BA (and those 2 have a 69 and 76, which is still much, much better than our squad) and 8 of the 9 have an OBP of .350 or higher. To get that kind of results, that team had to be instructed to be very patient.

Some of his decisions in Tampa Bay may be clouding my judgement, but it's hard to act like they didn't happen. Also, his pitcher usage has me worried. I'd say that is probably my biggest concern when seeking to hire a manager.

 

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

I know Wikipedia is a less than reliable source, but I thought this sentence was interesting about Piniella (the use of had in the sentence was becuase right now he is not a manager).

 

 

 

He had a reputation for being less than patient with pitchers, often sending his pitching coach to remove them from the game.

 

Looking through the pitcher abuse points lists, Moyer and Fassero appeared one year for the older pitchers. Hamala appeared as one of the least abused pitchers of that year.

 

When the full lists came out in 2001, the highest Mariners were Abbott at #28, and Garcia at #36. The next starter for the Mariners was a long way down from that.

 

In 2002, Valdes and Garcia are #21 and #24, with a little ways down until you get to Sele.

 

In 2003 for TB, Jeremi Gonzalez was #15 and Victor Zambrano was #20, with no other TB starter in the top 50.

 

I could not find the 2004 numbers other then I think Victor Zambrano was #4 that year.

 

In 2005, Casey Fossum was #11, and Kazmir was #31.

 

I simply don't see that much evidence that Lou abuses pitchers. He certainly does not abuse them to the point that Baker did at all, as referenced by only having one instance of his pitchers being in the top 10 of PAP.

[CuseCubFan69]

Funny nobody has mentioned Lou's salary as an issue. I expect he'll make about what Dusty made: $4-5M. That's $4-5M that won't be spent on players.

 

Levine said on Saturday? that the rumor was 3 years, $3M/per.

 

That's not bad but I wonder if it has certain out clauses.

[Soriano12]

3 a year isn't bad at all.

 

What does Torre get to sit in the dugout and do nothing...6-7 million?

[Pinktermite]

Again, I'll say "so what?". Pitchers get paid to pitch and if they have to go harder during a race, then do it...

 

Wasting them for pointless reasons is another story. If the Cubs had more warriors like Roger Clemens and Rod Beck and a host of others, then they would have done better.

 

Coddling pitchers is stupid if you are in a race to win. If you are in last place, then you end up on the garbage heap like Dusty.

 

Remember Jim Riggleman took some responsibility for what happened to Wood in 98, but he also said he didn't feel like he had any choice at the time.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

So the Tribune said Monday, Suntimes says Tuesday, and Daily Herald says Wednesday.

 

I'm guessing that's based off of when they think the NLCS will be over.

 

Only the Trib would think someone would clinch tonight with the series at 2-2.

[Sammy Sofa]

Prior himself is anomalous, in that he had some freak injuries and then seemed to turn into a pansy.

 

I know it's not just you, but this sentiment is such garbage.

[Laura]

So the Tribune said Monday, Suntimes says Tuesday, and Daily Herald says Wednesday.

 

I'm guessing that's based off of when they think the NLCS will be over.

 

Only the Trib would think someone would clinch tonight with the series at 2-2.

 

I read someplace that Selig's office indicated they wouldn't have a problem with the Cubs announcing a hiring decision during the NLCS if they did so early in the day and ran it through his office first. That also may be factoring into the different timelines.

[CuseCubFan69]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

I know Wikipedia is a less than reliable source, but I thought this sentence was interesting about Piniella (the use of had in the sentence was becuase right now he is not a manager).

 

 

 

He had a reputation for being less than patient with pitchers, often sending his pitching coach to remove them from the game.

 

Looking through the pitcher abuse points lists, Moyer and Fassero appeared one year for the older pitchers. Hamala appeared as one of the least abused pitchers of that year.

 

When the full lists came out in 2001, the highest Mariners were Abbott at #28, and Garcia at #36. The next starter for the Mariners was a long way down from that.

 

In 2002, Valdes and Garcia are #21 and #24, with a little ways down until you get to Sele.

 

In 2003 for TB, Jeremi Gonzalez was #15 and Victor Zambrano was #20, with no other TB starter in the top 50.

 

I could not find the 2004 numbers other then I think Victor Zambrano was #4 that year.

 

In 2005, Casey Fossum was #11, and Kazmir was #31.

 

I simply don't see that much evidence that Lou abuses pitchers. He certainly does not abuse them to the point that Baker did at all, as referenced by only having one instance of his pitchers being in the top 10 of PAP.

 

It does seem he has gotten worse as he's aged but he hasn't been that bad on the surface. I'm more worried about the veteran fetish.

[goonys evil twin]

Again, I'll make the argument that we can't prove...one way or another...that a manager's usage of a pitcher early in his career has any bearing on his future.

 

Kerry Wood was injury prone PRIOR to 2003...Prior himself is anomalous, in that he had some freak injuries and then seemed to turn into a pansy.

 

I don't advocate using Z for 120 odd pitches at the end of the season, but if the cubs were in the race and had a crappy bullpen (like they had in 2003), then ride him like there's no tomorrow.

 

You disagree, Goony, I'm sure...but that's okay.

 

No, it's not okay.

 

Just because we can't prove a manager can negatively affect a pitcher right now doesn't mean we should ignore the issue. Odds are pretty strong that heavy early work is bad. Pitching is bad for you, that's just a fact. Refusing to acknowledge the issue because we can't yet prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is foolish head in the sand thinking.

[goonys evil twin]

So the Tribune said Monday, Suntimes says Tuesday, and Daily Herald says Wednesday.

 

I'm guessing that's based off of when they think the NLCS will be over.

 

Only the Trib would think someone would clinch tonight with the series at 2-2.

 

If it was written before the final, and they thought STL would win 2 straight?

[goonys evil twin]

Again, I'll say "so what?".

 

Pretty much defines Baker's thoughts on the issue. More and more evidence about young pitchers getting abused and suffering the consequences, and still people are out there saying so what, or you can't prove it. It's absurd thinking.

 

So what? I'll answer that question. So what happens when you push guys past reasonable limits for short-term success? Well, the 2004-2006 Cubs is what happens.

[Pinktermite]

I just don't understand how it's "foolish head in the sand" thinking. Like I said, who wouldn't over use his best pitchers during a playoff race? That's not to say 140 pitches and then pitch on 3 days rest.

 

I'm just making the argument that none of us would be thinking "Gee, I better take Z out of this game in late september when we could win the division because I might hurt him four years from now."

 

During the Mets game Sat night the comment was made about the Mets bullpen having so much recent rest and Randolph's unwillingness to start using the bullpen early in the game. I think we can go overboard protecting pitchers.