According to the Score AM670 ,the cubs have a new manager...

[Pinktermite]

You are claiming that Baker's over use of pitchers is the reason the cubs sucked from 04 to 06?

 

That's a little goofy to me. There are about 15 players that have to do with that...and a GM that's gambled too much on injured and weak rosters...

 

The reason the cubs sucked was not because Dusty overused pitchers in 2003. I guess i'm the only one that thinks this.

[soapy]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

He apparantly tried to use Kazmir on short rest to win one last game to get to the meaningless goal of 70 wins one year. That's a sign of a manager with misplaced priorities.

 

That ain't good.

It may not be quite as bad as I'd thought/remembered (aside from the Kazmir thing goony mentioned).

 

Pitcher Abuse Points (from BP):

1999

Freddy Garcia 9th

Jamier Moyer 17th

Jeff Fassero 34th

John Halama 79th

Gil Meche ? (not in top 100)

 

2000

Aaron Sele 64th

John Halama (not in top 100)

Paul Abbott 97th

Freddy Garcia 105th

Gil Meche (not in top 100)

 

2001

Garcia 18th

Moyer 108th

Sele 76th

Abbott 27th

Halama (not in top 100)

Piniero (not in top 100)

 

2002

Garcia 18th

Moyer 60th

Piniero 49th

Baldwin (not in top 100)

Halama (not in top 100)

 

Some noticables from the Tampa year:

 

2003

V. Zambrano 16th

G. Gonzalez 18th

 

2004

V. Zambrano 4th

 

2005

Casey Fossum 11th

Kazmir 32nd

 

There are a few that stand out, but overall it's not in the catagory I had thought as far as Pitcher Abuse Points goes.

[Pinktermite]

just curious where all this "pitcher abuse points" thing comes from? is there a link?

[Soriano12]

The reason the cubs sucked was not because Dusty overused pitchers in 2003. I guess i'm the only one that thinks this.

 

Nope. I had many Dusty Baker gripes, but that wasn't one of them.

[BigbadB]

just curious where all this "pitcher abuse points" thing comes from? is there a link?

 

Baseball Prospectus (subscription required for most data) keeps pretty close tabs of PAP.

[soapy]

just curious where all this "pitcher abuse points" thing comes from? is there a link?

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=100930

[Pinktermite]

thanks

[Mephistopheles]

PAP = summation of (PC-100)^3 for each game; if PC < 100 PAP = 0.

[goonys evil twin]

You are claiming that Baker's over use of pitchers is the reason the cubs sucked from 04 to 06?

 

That's a little goofy to me. There are about 15 players that have to do with that...and a GM that's gambled too much on injured and weak rosters...

 

The reason the cubs sucked was not because Dusty overused pitchers in 2003. I guess i'm the only one that thinks this.

 

It is very much part of the reason. But yes, there were several others.

[C.C.]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

He apparantly tried to use Kazmir on short rest to win one last game to get to the meaningless goal of 70 wins one year. That's a sign of a manager with misplaced priorities.

 

I think you can go back and review any manager and find one or two incidences of abuse. Let's not nitpick everything to death here.

[goonys evil twin]

What proof is out there about his pitcher abuse? I know he used the pen quite a bit in Cincy but I don't know his habits pitching wise in Seattle.

 

He apparantly tried to use Kazmir on short rest to win one last game to get to the meaningless goal of 70 wins one year. That's a sign of a manager with misplaced priorities.

 

I think you can go back and review any manager and find one or two incidences of abuse. Let's not nitpick everything to death here.

 

I'm not nitpicking him to death, I clearly stated that I have no definitive opinion about Lou on this issue. I just listed a blatant example that could be a red flag for a manager with misplaced priorities.

[Guest]

I just don't understand how it's "foolish head in the sand" thinking. Like I said, who wouldn't over use his best pitchers during a playoff race? That's not to say 140 pitches and then pitch on 3 days rest.

 

I'm just making the argument that none of us would be thinking "Gee, I better take Z out of this game in late september when we could win the division because I might hurt him four years from now."

 

During the Mets game Sat night the comment was made about the Mets bullpen having so much recent rest and Randolph's unwillingness to start using the bullpen early in the game. I think we can go overboard protecting pitchers.

Mark Peel and I had a discussion in early Sept 2003 that it might be best for the Cubs' future if they missed the playoffs that year.

[Banedon]

I just don't understand how it's "foolish head in the sand" thinking. Like I said, who wouldn't over use his best pitchers during a playoff race? That's not to say 140 pitches and then pitch on 3 days rest.

 

I'm just making the argument that none of us would be thinking "Gee, I better take Z out of this game in late september when we could win the division because I might hurt him four years from now."

 

During the Mets game Sat night the comment was made about the Mets bullpen having so much recent rest and Randolph's unwillingness to start using the bullpen early in the game. I think we can go overboard protecting pitchers.

Mark Peel and I had a discussion in early Sept 2003 that it might be best for the Cubs' future if they missed the playoffs that year.

 

Who dat?? :P

[ronsanto10]

IT'S OFFICAL!!!!!!!!