Dunn Talk in Cincinnati

[NCCubFan]

Dunn ain't coming to Chicago, other then being a visitor.

 

Cincy ain't going to trade Dunn to Chicago, so why are people still on this horse?

That's your opinion, not fact. People are perfectly welcome to talk about it if they want.

 

And I am not stating my opinion as fact, but more like, it's something that is LIKELY to happen.

That's probably what you INTENDED to say, but not what you DID say. The wording you used did imply fact, not opinion, since you didn't use wording such as "probable" or "likely."

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Oh please let the Reds want Izturis in a deal for Dunn!

[oldcubsfan]

Just where would you play him? He is the single worst and laziest outfielder I have ever seen. No wonder Cincy will trade him, probably to the AL to be a DH and they probably won't get all that much for him.

[mg420]

Oh please let the Reds want Izturis in a deal for Dunn!

oh please let the reds keep dunn so murton can play lf next year!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Forgive me if I'd like the extra 70 points or more in OPS that Dunn would bring. I like Murton, but if the Cubs can improve by adding Dunn, I'd certainly make the move.

[Sammy Sofa]

How are his hustle stats looking these days?

[mg420]

Forgive me if I'd like the extra 70 points or more in OPS that Dunn would bring. I like Murton, but if the Cubs can improve by adding Dunn, I'd certainly make the move.

 

its not dunn himself (i do think he's way overrated though)- its what they would have to give up to get him. keep the young pitching, pie & murton in LF and i think they would win more games than if they traded for dunn.

[CubsInNC]

Forgive me if I'd like the extra 70 points or more in OPS that Dunn would bring. I like Murton, but if the Cubs can improve by adding Dunn, I'd certainly make the move.

 

I'd take Dunn, the FA, if it meant I could move Jones or Izturis for cheaper, similar production. Right now, I'm not sure I'd take Dunn, the trade, unless it meant Izturis or Jones was sent to Cinci. I can't see the Reds taking that deal though. We have some glaring holes to fill this offseason. We need a high-OBP hitter to leadoff. We'll likely need players at 2B, CF, and a few SPs. I can't justify the extra cost in trading for Dunn (several of our cheaper, productive SPs, most likely), above and beyond the limited salary flexibility we'd have.

 

Yes, a large Wood contract comes off the books, but we're gonna eat into some of that with needing to resign Aramis. I just don't think that once we would complete a trade for Dunn, costing us cheap pitching, we're gonna have enough left to sign the SPs we'd need to even remotely contend in the next few years, let alone next year.

[radarluv1]

would murton and itzuris and a couple of arms at the high A to AA level do it? then i would be all over it. the reds GM might be a little hesitant to deal a big name after getting robbed in his last deal. if it takes more than that, its not really worth the upgrade imo.

 

that being said, would dunn be any worse in RF? i though he had a plus arm?

[Magnetic Curses]

I like Dunn, but I dont like the fact he is a liability in the field, and he K's way too much. Cubs already have a couple of guys who will strikeout over a 100 times in a season(lee and Jones). Strikeouts are wasted AB's to me. Having 3 guys in your lineup who will K is not something I would like in a lineup. Put the ball in play and make something happen.

 

And that's pretty ridiculous. This isn't little league or high school ball for that matter. Even the most defensively challenged major leaguer makes most of the plays. When the ball is put in play, more times than not, an out is recorded.

 

The put it in play mantra is great in little league. I hate 12 year olds that strike out because with that age, 75% of the time when the ball is in play, something good does happen for the team at bat. Not so in the majors.

 

I want production. Dunn makes fewer outs than most other options for LF. When he does make an out, it's often with the K. Big deal because he is still making fewer outs. Outs are the most valuable commodity in the game. The players who make fewer outs (OBP) and make the most of their contact (SLG) are the most valuable (OPS).

 

Ok, you obviosuly didnt understand what I was saying. And there you go again, jumping to conclusions. When you put the ball in play you are putting pressure on the defense. Putting the ball in play means hits, doubles, triples, HR. I dont know why you brought up little league ball? I rather have guys who put the ball in play, then guys who strikeout with a guy on 3b with less than 2 outs. Thats considered a wasted AB. Strikeouts dont help the team. Wasted AB's. A concept you probably will never understand. I like Dunn, but I dont like the fact he will strikeout 200 times a year, and he is a huge liability in the field. Which hurts the team.

 

i would disagree very strongly with the bolded. when your key objective is to simply "put the ball in play" you are absolutely taking pressure OFF of the pitcher and defense. weak ground balls result from "just putting the ball in play" and are the easiest outs to record. strikeouts at least eat up 3 pitches at the least.

 

i would rather a player make a pitcher work, wait for a pitch he can drive, and then drive it. by swinging at a pitcher's pitch just for the sake of "putting the ball in play" the hitter fails to do his duty. by being afraid to strike out, a hitter fails in his duty. if the hitter doesn't see the pitch he wants in a plate appearance, a good hitter will tip his cap to the pitcher (or make a comment to the umpire) if a strikeout is recorded, or walk down to first base and be happy that he did not record an out if a base on ball ensues.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Dunn is a butcher in LF. I love his BB rate and don't care about the low BA. His SLG is nice and the Ks don't bother me. But that defense really hurts his net value IMO.

 

If he had average defense, that would be another thing. Impending FA is the other big negative about Dunn.

 

Giving up a guy like Hill for Dunn is moronic. We aren't that close to fielding a division winning team that we should give up a potential #2 starter for a big bopper in LF.

 

#2 starters don't grow on trees. Decent LF bats are available in FA.

[CuseCubFan69]

How are his hustle stats looking these days?

 

I know his team is looking up at the Cards in the standings.

[Guest]

How are his hustle stats looking these days?

 

I know his team is looking up at the Cards in the standings.

Yep, all because Pujols hustles.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Dunn ain't coming to Chicago, other then being a visitor.

 

Cincy ain't going to trade Dunn to Chicago, so why are people still on this horse?

That's your opinion, not fact. People are perfectly welcome to talk about it if they want.

 

And I am not stating my opinion as fact, but more like, it's something that is LIKELY to happen.

That's probably what you INTENDED to say, but not what you DID say. The wording you used did imply fact, not opinion, since you didn't use wording such as "probable" or "likely."

 

I'm sorry if you read it wrong and the fact I typed too fast to put my whole thought in, instead of half a thought.

 

But I went back and made the correction. It now has an opinion being stated, not fact. Even tho, I believe it is fact that Dunn won't be coming to Chicago, and continuation of this thread will likely stalled with every angle about Dunn will be exhausted.

[NCCubFan]

Dunn ain't coming to Chicago, other then being a visitor.

 

Cincy ain't going to trade Dunn to Chicago, so why are people still on this horse?

That's your opinion, not fact. People are perfectly welcome to talk about it if they want.

 

And I am not stating my opinion as fact, but more like, it's something that is LIKELY to happen.

That's probably what you INTENDED to say, but not what you DID say. The wording you used did imply fact, not opinion, since you didn't use wording such as "probable" or "likely."

 

I'm sorry if you read it wrong and the fact I typed too fast to put my whole thought in, instead of half a thought.

 

But I went back and made the correction. It now has an opinion being stated, not fact. Even tho, I believe it is fact that Dunn won't be coming to Chicago, and continuation of this thread will likely stalled with every angle about Dunn will be exhausted.

So in other words you think it is a Dunn deal that he won't be coming to the Cubs. :D

 

Like I said, I think it's unlikely, but it can't be completely ruled out.

[CuseCubFan69]

How are his hustle stats looking these days?

 

I know his team is looking up at the Cards in the standings.

Yep, all because Pujols hustles.

 

A lot better than Dunn does.

[Magnetic Curses]

Dunn is a butcher in LF. I love his BB rate and don't care about the low BA. His SLG is nice and the Ks don't bother me. But that defense really hurts his net value IMO.

 

If he had average defense, that would be another thing. Impending FA is the other big negative about Dunn.

 

Giving up a guy like Hill for Dunn is moronic. We aren't that close to fielding a division winning team that we should give up a potential #2 starter for a big bopper in LF.

 

#2 starters don't grow on trees. Decent LF bats are available in FA.

 

i don't think we should give up hill to get dunn, we need every good pitcher we can. a very good starting staff is worth much more than a team with a good OBP--that said, dunn's butchery in the field makes little difference to his value.

[Guest]

How are his hustle stats looking these days?

 

I know his team is looking up at the Cards in the standings.

Yep, all because Pujols hustles.

 

A lot better than Dunn does.

Reasons the Cards are above the Reds in the standings:

 

1) Albert Pujols does EVERYTHING much better than Adam Dunn

2) Chris Carpenter is better than Bronson Arroyo

3) The Cards bullpen is far, far superior to the Reds pen

4) Rolen is better than the second best hitter on the Reds (which is who at this point?)

...

197) Pujols hustles more than Dunn

[CaliforniaRaisin]

4) Rolen is better than the second best hitter on the Reds (which is who at this point?)

 

Austin Kearns? #-o

Felipe Lopez? #-o

[RichHillIsABeast]

Dunn is a butcher in LF. I love his BB rate and don't care about the low BA. His SLG is nice and the Ks don't bother me. But that defense really hurts his net value IMO.

 

If he had average defense, that would be another thing. Impending FA is the other big negative about Dunn.

 

Giving up a guy like Hill for Dunn is moronic. We aren't that close to fielding a division winning team that we should give up a potential #2 starter for a big bopper in LF.

 

#2 starters don't grow on trees. Decent LF bats are available in FA.

 

i don't think we should give up hill to get dunn, we need every good pitcher we can. a very good starting staff is worth much more than a team with a good OBP--that said, dunn's butchery in the field makes little difference to his value.

 

He costs you round about 15-20 runs in 150 games. It's not negligible.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_and_league_200_innings/

[CubinNY]

Dunn is a butcher in LF. I love his BB rate and don't care about the low BA. His SLG is nice and the Ks don't bother me. But that defense really hurts his net value IMO.

 

If he had average defense, that would be another thing. Impending FA is the other big negative about Dunn.

 

Giving up a guy like Hill for Dunn is moronic. We aren't that close to fielding a division winning team that we should give up a potential #2 starter for a big bopper in LF.

 

#2 starters don't grow on trees. Decent LF bats are available in FA.

 

i don't think we should give up hill to get dunn, we need every good pitcher we can. a very good starting staff is worth much more than a team with a good OBP--that said, dunn's butchery in the field makes little difference to his value.

 

He costs you round about 15-20 runs in 150 games. It's not negligible.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_and_league_200_innings/

 

Subtract that from his power numbers and he is way, way on the plus side.

 

BTW> I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers at all.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Dunn is a butcher in LF. I love his BB rate and don't care about the low BA. His SLG is nice and the Ks don't bother me. But that defense really hurts his net value IMO.

 

If he had average defense, that would be another thing. Impending FA is the other big negative about Dunn.

 

Giving up a guy like Hill for Dunn is moronic. We aren't that close to fielding a division winning team that we should give up a potential #2 starter for a big bopper in LF.

 

#2 starters don't grow on trees. Decent LF bats are available in FA.

 

 

 

i don't think we should give up hill to get dunn, we need every good pitcher we can. a very good starting staff is worth much more than a team with a good OBP--that said, dunn's butchery in the field makes little difference to his value.

 

He costs you round about 15-20 runs in 150 games. It's not negligible.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_and_league_200_innings/

 

Subtract that from his power numbers and he is way, way on the plus side.

 

BTW> I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers at all.

 

 

Are you kidding me? Dunn cost the Reds at least 3 runs in our opening series against them. One fricking series. Go back and watch that series if you have it on tape, or MLB.TV.

 

Yes, Dunn's offense more than makes up for his defense, but it brings his net worth as a player down. He's not an elite offensive LF anyway and his D just further detracts from his value.

 

There's a reason why he was supposed to move to 1B until Hatteburg showed up.

 

OBP is great, but it's not the be-all, end-all to baseball. There are other ways to make a winning team besides an OBP stacked lineup. Pitching and defense do count. Anyone heard of the Oakland A's? They don't have OBP monsters anymore and still win games.

 

OBP doesn't hurt and it is important, but other factors matter. You don't just look at someone's OBP and ignore their other shortcomings and expect to field a winning team.

[CubinNY]

He's not an elite offensive LF anyway and his D just further detracts from his value.

 

There's a reason why he was supposed to move to 1B until Hatteburg showed up.

 

OBP is great, but it's not the be-all, end-all to baseball. There are other ways to make a winning team besides an OBP stacked lineup. Pitching and defense do count. Anyone heard of the Oakland A's? They don't have OBP monsters anymore and still win games.

 

OBP doesn't hurt and it is important, but other factors matter. You don't just look at someone's OBP and ignore their other shortcomings and expect to field a winning team.

 

Why isn't Dunn an "elite" offensive LFer?

 

He's 2nd in walks and HRs, and 7th in OBP., SLG, and OPS. I'd say top 10 in those categories makes him elite. Who cares if strikes out or doesn't hit for a high average? But that's just me.

 

I'll take Adam Dunn, Barry Bonds, Migual Cabrera, and Manny Rameriz any day of the week to play LF for me.

 

15 runs over the course of a seson is not that important.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

15 runs over the course of a seson is not that important.

 

It's a win and a half by itself.

[CubinNY]

15 runs over the course of a seson is not that important.

 

It's a win and a half by itself.

 

So would it be correct in saying that Adam Dunn will cost the team @ 1.5 wins over the course of the season with his defense?

 

In 2005 his VORP was a remarkable 45. This year his winshare is 21 and his RC is 98. Call me crazy but, that makes him an elite LFer.