nice knowing you, the riot

[abuck1220]

Tuesday, rookie Ryan Theriot attempted to steal third with Aramis Ramirez at the plate and two outs in the seventh, with the Cubs trailing by three runs.

 

"That shocked us all," Baker said. "That wasn't a good play."

 

Theriot was easily gunned down, ending the inning.

 

"Looking back on it, it wasn't the best move," Theriot said.

 

first of all, how bad is baker pining for neifi right now? secondly, has baker EVER criticized anyone older than 26?

[Shilzzz]

Tuesday, rookie Ryan Theriot attempted to steal third with Aramis Ramirez at the plate and two outs in the seventh, with the Cubs trailing by three runs.

 

"That shocked us all," Baker said. "That wasn't a good play."

 

Theriot was easily gunned down, ending the inning.

 

"Looking back on it, it wasn't the best move," Theriot said.

 

first of all, how bad is baker pining for neifi right now? secondly, has baker EVER criticized anyone older than 26?

 

how old is rich hill? :wink:

[Drew Doughty]

Tuesday, rookie Ryan Theriot attempted to steal third with Aramis Ramirez at the plate and two outs in the seventh, with the Cubs trailing by three runs.

 

"That shocked us all," Baker said. "That wasn't a good play."

 

Theriot was easily gunned down, ending the inning.

 

"Looking back on it, it wasn't the best move," Theriot said.

 

first of all, how bad is baker pining for neifi right now? secondly, has baker EVER criticized anyone older than 26?

 

how old is rich hill? :wink:

 

26

[Laura]

A fair number of people want a manager who will hold players accountable and reward players who play well. I'm really reaching to think about what manager would praise that Theriot play.

 

I didn't see it; maybe there's more to it than meets the eye. I'm not a big fan of trying to steal 3B with 2 outs and the only remaining semi-consistent hitting threat in the lineup at bat. I don't really see the point in doing it as a learning experience when it wouldn't be a good play next year, either. Maybe there's a more nurturing way to counsel Theriot that it wasn't a good idea. And maybe Theriot now realizes that it's not AA anymore (despite the current lineup) and sometimes you rely on your 3-4 hitters to hit instead of trying to steal your way to homeplate.

 

Of course, Theriot shouldn't lose playing time to Bynum because of this, but probably will.

[NewUserName]

It was a bad play. It was a bad play when Pierre did it in the 5th also. Except Pierre didnt get caught. Attempting to steal 3rd with 2 outs is not smart baseball. I just with Dusty would have mentioned both of them instead of singleing out Theriot because he got caught.

[dalgreen]

It was a bad play. It was a bad play when Pierre did it in the 5th also. Except Pierre didnt get caught. Attempting to steal 3rd with 2 outs is not smart baseball. I just with Dusty would have mentioned both of them instead of singleing out Theriot because he got caught.

 

Baker probably was only asked about Theriot, though. If someone had asked Baker if Pierre was smart stealing third I bet he would've said, "It's smart if you make it." Although it's a dumb play, period.

[soapy]

I'm not sure if I really have a problem with Dusty saying it was a bad play (it was). My biggest question is, would he have said the same thing if Pierre had been thrown out doing the same thing? Would have said the same thing if it was someone like Jones? I'm not sure he would and that is what bothers me.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I like Theriot, but you never make the third out of an inning at third.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

It was a bad play. It was a bad play when Pierre did it in the 5th also. Except Pierre didnt get caught. Attempting to steal 3rd with 2 outs is not smart baseball. I just with Dusty would have mentioned both of them instead of singleing out Theriot because he got caught.

 

Baker probably was only asked about Theriot, though. If someone had asked Baker if Pierre was smart stealing third I bet he would've said, "It's smart if you make it." Although it's a dumb play, period.

 

That's what the manager should say regardless of the player. Keep the confidence of the player up and let him know that he screwed up without telling everyone about how the player screwed up. It's bad etiquitte. Managers, in b&i for instance, are taught to never call out their employee in a public forum with criticism. Instead, that's reserved for 1 on 1.

 

I have a real problem with Dusty continuing to call out mistakes by young players while veterans get a pass. Is it an effort on his part to deflect blame ? Is he trying to highlight failures of the minor league development of the Cubs ? Or his he simply so stupid that he expects young players to be flawless and veterans to be free from blame ?

[Mizzou]

That was a stupid idea by Theriot. He should be criticized for it.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Pierre tried to steal second with 2 outs late in the game a few weeks ago when the game tying run was either up or on deck. Never heard a peep out of Dusty on that one. Both plays are stupid.

[CubColtPacer]

Pierre tried to steal second with 2 outs late in the game a few weeks ago when the game tying run was either up or on deck. Never heard a peep out of Dusty on that one. Both plays are stupid.

 

Actually, Dusty did comment on that one-he called the Pierre steal from the dugout-so he can't exactly criticize Pierre since it was Dusty's fault. His comments were posted the next day at the end of that particular game thread.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Pierre tried to steal second with 2 outs late in the game a few weeks ago when the game tying run was either up or on deck. Never heard a peep out of Dusty on that one. Both plays are stupid.

 

Actually, Dusty did comment on that one-he called the Pierre steal from the dugout-so he can't exactly criticize Pierre since it was Dusty's fault. His comments were posted the next day at the end of that particular game thread.

 

my fault, i never saw. nevermind.

[pitchcs]

It was a bad play. It was a bad play when Pierre did it in the 5th also. Except Pierre didnt get caught. Attempting to steal 3rd with 2 outs is not smart baseball. I just with Dusty would have mentioned both of them instead of singleing out Theriot because he got caught.

 

I don't really like your comment there. Why should Dusty mention Pierre? He had the biggest jump I've ever seen and KNEW he would make it. Sure, attempting to steal 3rd with 2 outs is never a genious situation, but if you can easliy take a base, take it! Theriot on the other hand, had an awful jump and made a dumb move.

[goonys evil twin]

It is a stupid play and there's nothing wrong pointing it out. I just find it funny how Baker has to emphasize that it's a YOUNG, A VERY YOUNG mistake. It's funny because Baker's veterans make similar so-called "rookie mistakes" all the time. They've done it since he's gotten here. Yet the only ones who get called out of making "young" or "rookie" mistakes are the actual young rookies. Apparantly it's not a young rookie mistake if you do the same thing as a veteran.

[abuck1220]

That was a stupid idea by Theriot. He should be criticized for it.

 

then so should the dozen veterans who have made similar stupid mistakes throughout the season.

 

wasn't theriot just "hustling at the wrong time" like aramis did in milwaukee?

[goonys evil twin]

I think this goes back to the be aggressive mantra.

 

Some people defend it by saying the Cubs mean people should be aggressive at the right times (when taking the extra base is smart, when the pitch is in the zone, etc), but in practice, Cubs players up and down the roster have hurt the team with over aggressive play. Whether it's swinging at everything, stupid baserunning mistakes or even stupid coaching decisions (like sending guys home unnecessarily), over aggressive play has been one of the many problems of the team. Guys either aren't getting the message, or the message isn't being sent. But the people in charge of the Cubs need to rethink and adjust their be aggressive mantra.

[cubfan1955]

All of the Cubs baserunning woes are the result of a very poorly managed and coached team from top to bottom. A young guy sees a veteran try something like that and Baker defends him in the press so they give it a shot too. I guarantee that if it had been Jones, Aramis or someone like that Dusty would have defended it as a good agressive play that just didn't work out. Much like the Neifi bunt with 2 outs in the 9th.

[Warren Brusstar]

It is a stupid play and there's nothing wrong pointing it out. I just find it funny how Baker has to emphasize that it's a YOUNG, A VERY YOUNG mistake. It's funny because Baker's veterans make similar so-called "rookie mistakes" all the time. They've done it since he's gotten here. Yet the only ones who get called out of making "young" or "rookie" mistakes are the actual young rookies. Apparantly it's not a young rookie mistake if you do the same thing as a veteran.

 

Well, as a matter of semantical accuracy, isn't he right? If Neifi or Jacque Jones or Jose Macias or Moises Alou makes a boneheaded decision, it's not a mistake by a young player, so it's not really accurate to call it a "young mistake." When Theriot does something similarly stupid -- and make no mistake, that was as bad a baseball play as you can make -- it is accurate to call it a "young mistake."

 

Now, whether it's fair for Dusty only to call out young players for their mistakes is a different issue entirely. And on that point, I agree -- I wish Dusty would treat players equally, regardless of their experience.

[A New Era]

A fair number of people want a manager who will hold players accountable and reward players who play well. I'm really reaching to think about what manager would praise that Theriot play.

 

I didn't see it; maybe there's more to it than meets the eye. I'm not a big fan of trying to steal 3B with 2 outs and the only remaining semi-consistent hitting threat in the lineup at bat. I don't really see the point in doing it as a learning experience when it wouldn't be a good play next year, either. Maybe there's a more nurturing way to counsel Theriot that it wasn't a good idea. And maybe Theriot now realizes that it's not AA anymore (despite the current lineup) and sometimes you rely on your 3-4 hitters to hit instead of trying to steal your way to homeplate.

 

Of course, Theriot shouldn't lose playing time to Bynum because of this, but probably will.

 

I think this is about Dustworthless not thinking twice about calling out a rookie as soon as he has a chance. But out of the 1000's of boneheaded plays neifi made never once saying anything that would be "calling him out", or just making excuses like "He was excited and over agressive". .etc. . .

[cheapseats]

in practice, Cubs players up and down the roster have hurt the team with over aggressive play. Whether it's swinging at everything, stupid baserunning mistakes or even stupid coaching decisions (like sending guys home unnecessarily), over aggressive play has been one of the many problems of the team. Guys either aren't getting the message, or the message isn't being sent. But the people in charge of the Cubs need to rethink and adjust their be aggressive mantra.

 

Yep. Dan Fox has been doing a series of articles on baserunning for BP, and the facts show over and over again that the best baserunners are the ones who don't get thrown out. Being alert enough to take an extra base when there's little risk will add runs, but it's more important not to make outs.

[SoonerCubFan]

The anti-Baker, Neifi, blah blah blah stuff is really quite boring at this point. Is there no interest at all in fairness? Baker's comments seem pretty tame, much more so than what Theriot probably heard in the dugout/clubhouse.

 

One poster had it right, Baker was asked about this specifically. He didn't run to the mic on a whim, and if Theriot had made it as easily as Pierre did no one would have even mentioned it.

[goonys evil twin]

The anti-Baker, Neifi, blah blah blah stuff is really quite boring at this point. Is there no interest at all in fairness? Baker's comments seem pretty tame, much more so than what Theriot probably heard in the dugout/clubhouse.

 

One poster had it right, Baker was asked about this specifically. He didn't run to the mic on a whim, and if Theriot had made it as easily as Pierre did no one would have even mentioned it.

 

If there was interest in fairness Dusty wouldn't routinely blast young rookie mistakes and gloss over veterans making the exact same mistakes.

[SoonerCubFan]

The anti-Baker, Neifi, blah blah blah stuff is really quite boring at this point. Is there no interest at all in fairness? Baker's comments seem pretty tame, much more so than what Theriot probably heard in the dugout/clubhouse.

 

One poster had it right, Baker was asked about this specifically. He didn't run to the mic on a whim, and if Theriot had made it as easily as Pierre did no one would have even mentioned it.

 

If there was interest in fairness Dusty wouldn't routinely blast young rookie mistakes and gloss over veterans making the exact same mistakes.

 

I don't subscribe to the notion that "that wasn't a good play" even remotely approaches blasting. And, I've seen no evidence that it is routine, other than there being a lot of opportunities to be asked about such plays. Also, I've seen comments made about poor decision making with veterans when asked. I don't like many of his lineup decisions and his tendency to overwork his productive horses to win today, but IMO this whole "Baker Hates Young Players" angle is WAY overblown and not backed by much tanglible evidence all the way back to his San Fran days.

[Guest]

If Baker had just said that Theriot had made a "mistake" in that situation, I don't think it would get people as upset. By characterizing it as a "young mistake" it fuels the veteran-fetish belief that Baker protests against so much.