[otis89]

Nothing but the best for him! If he gets hot and competes with Theriot/Fontenot next ST, all the better.

 

Uh, what about Cedeno?

[Outshined_One]

Nothing but the best for him! If he gets hot and competes with Theriot/Fontenot next ST, all the better.

 

Uh, what about Cedeno?

 

I refuse to acknowledge the existence of you know who playing SS. :(

[jaxxradio]

Izturis?? You refuse to acknowledge Izturis?? Dang, that's cold.. he's one of the three best defensive SS in the game. Move Cedeno to second, resign Pierre and Barrett and you have one of the best middle defenses in the game.

[CubinNY]

Izturis?? You refuse to acknowledge Izturis?? Dang, that's cold.. he's one of the three best defensive SS in the game. Move Cedeno to second, resign Pierre and Barrett and you have one of the best middle defenses in the game.

 

And the worst ofensive middle of the diamond position players in the game.

 

Iztuis would be ok if he played for the Red Sox or Yankees, not the Cubs.

[Outshined_One]

While having Izzy's glove is nice, I really hated that trade. The Cubs already had two defensive wizards at SS who were questionable with the bat (Neifury and Cedeno). I failed to see the point of adding a third.

[jaxxradio]

Nefi Perez isn't on the same planet let alone the same ballfield with Izturis defensively and most of Cedeno's errors came on throwing errors, telling me he won't be an adequate defensive shortstop, but a phenominal defensive second baseman once he gets used to the position.

 

As far as the offense goes, Izturis doesn't have that bad of a bat. Life-time .260 hitter who can win multiple gold gloves?? I'll take that in a second.

 

You guys need to remember this about baseball. Offense alone won't win you championships. You must have solid pitching as well as solid defense up the middle.

 

That's why I absolutely love this trade. You get a gold glove SS and you can move Cedeno to second where, with his range, he will win multiple gold gloves before it's all said and done. Those guys alone are going to save the pitching staff a boat load of un-earned runs.

 

Sure, you might suffer offensively, but the amount of runs that middle defense saves during the course of the season will be more than enough to make up for their offensive problems.

 

BTW, when the Cardinals won the 1982 World Series, how did they do it? They were LAST in the majors in homers and near the bottom in offense. They won with pitching and AMAZING defense.

[Outshined_One]

Neifi has a lifetime BA of .270 and won a gold glove in 2000. While his best days may be behind him at 33, he still is a very good defensive SS.

 

The Cubs were not suffering defensively prior to this trade; they were actually quite good. It wasn't like the team had a black hole of defensive doom and despair at SS; they actually managed to do pretty well for themselves, even with Derrek Lee missing most of the season.

 

With the outfield the way it's currently set up, this team desperately needs offensive help from the infield. The group of Jock Jones, Juan Pierre, and Matt Murton is not the solution, unfortunately

 

Given the choice between Izturis and the two unnamed prospects Jim Hendry reportedly turned down, I'd prefer the prospects, given Izzy's contract. I am of the mindset that pitching and offense are much more critical to a team's success than defense.

 

BTW, when the Cardinals won the 1982 World Series, how did they do it? They were LAST in the majors in homers and near the bottom in offense. They won with pitching and AMAZING defense.

 

1982 Cardinals Team stats.

 

In the NL, they were second in batting average, first in OBP, and fifth in total runs. Their power was decidedly lacking, but they had a good offense.

 

Also, having five pitchers with an ERA+ of >100 helped quite a bit.

[rawaction]

Nefi Perez isn't on the same planet let alone the same ballfield with Izturis defensively and most of Cedeno's errors came on throwing errors, telling me he won't be an adequate defensive shortstop, but a phenominal defensive second baseman once he gets used to the position.

 

As far as the offense goes, Izturis doesn't have that bad of a bat. Life-time .260 hitter who can win multiple gold gloves?? I'll take that in a second.

 

You guys need to remember this about baseball. Offense alone won't win you championships. You must have solid pitching as well as solid defense up the middle.

 

That's why I absolutely love this trade. You get a gold glove SS and you can move Cedeno to second where, with his range, he will win multiple gold gloves before it's all said and done. Those guys alone are going to save the pitching staff a boat load of un-earned runs.

 

Sure, you might suffer offensively, but the amount of runs that middle defense saves during the course of the season will be more than enough to make up for their offensive problems.

 

BTW, when the Cardinals won the 1982 World Series, how did they do it? They were LAST in the majors in homers and near the bottom in offense. They won with pitching and AMAZING defense.

 

I disagree with a lot of this post. First, Neifi is very comparable to Izturis defensively. To me, he was the best SS in baseball defensively in 2005. The numbers support that also.

 

Secondly, Izturis is a .260 hitter lifetime, but also has a sub .300 career OBP, which is absolutely anemic, no matter how you look at it.

 

Third, there's not been a proven set formula to win a World Series. Boston won in 2004 with a 4.51 ERA (19th best) after the AS break that year. They won with Bellhorn, Damon, and Cabrera all being near the bottom of the MLB up the middle defensively. They walked a ton and scored a bunch. The RSox beat the Cards who were better defensively and pitching. The WSox last year won with great starting pitching, pretty good defense at SS and CF, but bad D at 2B. They didn't walk and didn't score very much. The team they played in the WS mirrored that.

 

Lastly, 1982 was a long time ago. The game of baseball has completely changed since then. How many teams have stolen as many bases as the CArds that year? How many 40 HR hitters were there back then? I wouldn't want a GM in 2007 modeling itself after a team from 25 years ago.

[Laura]

Congrats & good luck to Eric!

[jaxxradio]

We agree to disagree I guess. Having been an Indians fan my whole life, I know first hand how much a great offense can get carved up by great pitching in the playoffs (the '95 and '97 World Series comes to mind).

 

In baseball, great pitching beats great hitting everytime plain and simple. One of the ways to make a good pitching staff great is to have great defense in the place that is needed the most, the middle. IMO, if you have Barrett, Cedeno, Izturis and Pierre up the middle with Lee at first base and his ability to pick out low throws, the Cubs would have a GREAT defense that would make their average to good pitching staff borderline spectacular.

 

As far as the offense goes in the outfield. I am so sick of people whining about Murton's lack of power. I know you weren't, but I need to vent. This kid will hit you .300 with 10-15 homers a year with adequate defense. Let the kid play everyday for crying' out loud. Pierre is not as bad as the player you folks saw in April. The guy your seeing right now is the Juan Pierre that I remember. As far as Jones goes, he can't hit lefties, but the guy is still hitting .280 (or somewhere around there) with 20 jacks. Is he the long-term answer? No because of the whole lefty thing Having said that, I like him becuase he works hard and doesn't loaf like A-Ram.

[jaxxradio]

How exactly do you go by numbers when judging a guy defensively? By his errors?? The amount of errors are a very small percentage of what makes a good player defensively.

 

This is where stats are the single most over-rated thing in sports today. I don't need skewed numbers to see if a guy can field his position. I see it with my own eyes.

 

I've seen Neifi Perez play short. His range isn't even close to Izturis range. I don't need numbers to see how great a player is defensively.

 

OBP.. there is another statistic that is fantasy-baseball induced. The only time I look at a guys OBP is if he is the lead-off hitter. That stat is worthless for everybody else. What is the number two guys job?? Move the lead-off guy to scoring position by bunting or hitting behind the runner. What's the meat of the order's responsibility? Drive in runs by whatever means necessary.

 

Interesting how you bring up the Red Sox in 2004. Did you actually watch the playoffs or are you reading the "informative" stats? The Red-Sox came from 3-0 down in the ALCS because there pitching staff SHUTDOWN the vaunted Yankees offense. They won the World Series because they SHUTDOWN the Cardinals and made Albert Pujols look like a .190 Double-A hitter. They also won becuase they played solid defense IN THAT STRETCH OF GAMES.

 

I don't mean to bag on you, but I get so tired of hearing stats that don't mean a freakin' thing.

[Outshined_One]

On the plus side, acquiring Izturis seems to have made Neifi expendable. :lol:

[karenmac]

I'm wondering what they're going to be doing with our new catcher that we got in the Neifi trade. Olin Wick went up to FL again last Monday, and Rick and Muyco are also there. Perhaps they'll move another catcher up to WT?

[imb]

OBP.. there is another statistic that is fantasy-baseball induced. The only time I look at a guys OBP is if he is the lead-off hitter. That stat is worthless for everybody else.

 

You lost me.

[Chris]

On the plus side, acquiring Izturis seems to have made Neifi expendable. :lol:

 

ha ha

[Ding Dong Johnson]

OBP.. there is another statistic that is fantasy-baseball induced. The only time I look at a guys OBP is if he is the lead-off hitter. That stat is worthless for everybody else.

 

You lost me.

 

It's only important for the leadoff guy to get on base.

[imb]

OBP.. there is another statistic that is fantasy-baseball induced. The only time I look at a guys OBP is if he is the lead-off hitter. That stat is worthless for everybody else.

 

You lost me.

 

It's only important for the leadoff guy to get on base.

 

Oddly enough, OBP isn't even a fantasy baseball category.

 

"Basically, everything you know about baseball when you are fourteen years old, you know from baseball announcers. Here was this guy [bill James] who was telling me that at least eighty percent of what baseball

announcers told me was complete bull(edit), and then explained very convincingly why it was." - Voros McCracken.

[rocket]

How exactly do you go by numbers when judging a guy defensively? By his errors?? The amount of errors are a very small percentage of what makes a good player defensively.

 

This is where stats are the single most over-rated thing in sports today. I don't need skewed numbers to see if a guy can field his position. I see it with my own eyes.

 

 

well i think announcer's opinions are sometimes the most overrated thing in sports today. (which is why firejoemorgan.blogspot.com is so great)

[NorthsideAvenger]

How exactly do you go by numbers when judging a guy defensively? By his errors?? The amount of errors are a very small percentage of what makes a good player defensively.

 

This is where stats are the single most over-rated thing in sports today. I don't need skewed numbers to see if a guy can field his position. I see it with my own eyes.

 

I've seen Neifi Perez play short. His range isn't even close to Izturis range. I don't need numbers to see how great a player is defensively.

 

OBP.. there is another statistic that is fantasy-baseball induced. The only time I look at a guys OBP is if he is the lead-off hitter. That stat is worthless for everybody else. What is the number two guys job?? Move the lead-off guy to scoring position by bunting or hitting behind the runner. What's the meat of the order's responsibility? Drive in runs by whatever means necessary.

 

Interesting how you bring up the Red Sox in 2004. Did you actually watch the playoffs or are you reading the "informative" stats? The Red-Sox came from 3-0 down in the ALCS because there pitching staff SHUTDOWN the vaunted Yankees offense. They won the World Series because they SHUTDOWN the Cardinals and made Albert Pujols look like a .190 Double-A hitter. They also won becuase they played solid defense IN THAT STRETCH OF GAMES.

 

I don't mean to bag on you, but I get so tired of hearing stats that don't mean a freakin' thing.

 

Great quote. I can both sides of the OBP debate, and I agree with both sides.

 

Both how about the Cubs find the balance of pitching, defense, power, OBP, and baseball IQ. How about instead of trying to be superior in one or two catergories, how about them become very good in all of the catergories. IDK, I might be naive, so....

[jaxxradio]

I would never sit here and say with a straight face that whatever sports announcers say is the absolute truth because I know that would be inaccurate. There are a ton of broadcasters (and maybe some of you think I am one of them) that don't have a clue what they are doing, but they sound good.

 

As far as Bill James goes, the problem I have with he and the other stat geeks is that they go by numbers that can be skewered to make the worst baseball player look good. Is baseball a numbers driven game? Absolutely it is.. but more than that, it's a game where you don't need numbers to figure out how good a player is. All you have to do is watch him play. If you know anything about the game, you'll know without looking at numbers whether or not the guy is any good.

 

I apologize for sounding pompous, arrogant or full of crap. I just have a real problem with opinions based solely on numbers.

[rocket]

i don't need my eyes to tell me which player is good when i can just look at the numbers.

 

any awful player can look good on a certain day. trusting only your eyes is a bad idea.

[imb]

As far as Bill James goes, the problem I have with he and the other stat geeks is that they go by numbers that can be skewered to make the worst baseball player look good.

 

The problem I have is that you are doing that exact same thing. Only not with stats.

 

You don't like sabrmetrics because they "can make a bad player look good"? You're trying to make Cesar Izturis sound like a decent player because of his defense, which, while admittedly good is only what, ten percent of the game? 20 percent? Whatever it is, it's not enough to make him a valuable player.

 

In the end you're doing the exact thing you're railing against, using conventional baseball wisdom (instead of statistical analysis) to make a bad player look good.

 

Studying and using stats don't make bad players look good, it exposes bad players.

[sethuel1]

I've got an idea. Why don't we find out which statistical categories correlate with higher win totals in baseball.

 

Wait, people have done that? Stat geeks like Bill James and Voros McCracken? And they've tried to come up with other stats that also correlate with BASEBALL TEAMS WINNING GAMES? That is absolutely ludicrous.

 

I don't believe any of it, and I'd like to watch a guy run the bases several times and then try to compare that to other guys I've seen run at other times on other days and decide who can go from first to third on a hit to right the fastest, because I deem that to be much more important than their numbers in categories that have been mathematically proven to correlate with winning baseball.

 

I'm happy to have a guy who can go first to third a little bit faster, or who the scouts say has better range. But I'm happier to have a guy that has better stats in categories that correlate with winning baseball.

[jaxxradio]

And these are the same stat geeks that think that Nefi Perez is a better ballplayer then Derek Jeter. They have no clue about what goes into their numbers.

 

Give you an example. You guys don't care for Izturis because of his offense and some of you have said that Nefi is gooddefensively because he's won a gold glove. What you kids don't know is that Nefi doesn't go after half of the groundballs near him because his range sucks and when he ACTUALLY GETS to a ball, the only reason why is because he is PLAYING THERE.

 

Numbers are great, but when the stat geeks have no clue when you ask them to go "inside the numbers" like the example I just gave you with Nefi.. I'll tell you this.. defense is a hell of alot more important than 20% up the middle.. try 40-50% if not more.

[ChiefsVoice]

I would never sit here and say with a straight face that whatever sports announcers say is the absolute truth because I know that would be inaccurate. There are a ton of broadcasters (and maybe some of you think I am one of them) that don't have a clue what they are doing, but they sound good.

 

As far as Bill James goes, the problem I have with he and the other stat geeks is that they go by numbers that can be skewered to make the worst baseball player look good. Is baseball a numbers driven game? Absolutely it is.. but more than that, it's a game where you don't need numbers to figure out how good a player is. All you have to do is watch him play. If you know anything about the game, you'll know without looking at numbers whether or not the guy is any good.

 

I apologize for sounding pompous, arrogant or full of crap. I just have a real problem with opinions based solely on numbers.

 

I couldn't have said that better myself Ron. I'm the same way..