[Outshined_One]

And these are the same stat geeks that think that Nefi Perez is a better ballplayer then Derek Jeter. They have no clue about what goes into their numbers.

 

...whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

 

I believe Bill James (or maybe McCracken, can't remember which) said that Neifi Perez was one of the ten worst offensive players in baseball history.

[imb]

And these are the same stat geeks that think that Nefi Perez is a better ballplayer then Derek Jeter. They have no clue about what goes into their numbers.

 

Give you an example. You guys don't care for Izturis because of his offense and some of you have said that Nefi is gooddefensively because he's won a gold glove. What you kids don't know is that Nefi doesn't go after half of the groundballs near him because his range sucks and when he ACTUALLY GETS to a ball, the only reason why is because he is PLAYING THERE.

 

Numbers are great, but when the stat geeks have no clue when you ask them to go "inside the numbers" like the example I just gave you with Nefi.. I'll tell you this.. defense is a hell of alot more important than 20% up the middle.. try 40-50% if not more.

 

No, those are the stat geeks that have said that "Neifi Perez is the worst player in major league history".

 

You don't even know what you're arguing.

 

"Don't know what goes into their numbers"? You're just making up nonsense.

Edited August 20, 2006 by Bunts Lick Butts

[Warpticon]

And these are the same stat geeks that think that Nefi Perez is a better ballplayer then Derek Jeter. They have no clue about what goes into their numbers.

 

I challenge you to name one person not Neifi Perez's mother who believes that.

[TruffleShuffle]

We agree to disagree I guess. Having been an Indians fan my whole life, I know first hand how much a great offense can get carved up by great pitching in the playoffs (the '95 and '97 World Series comes to mind).

 

What's the World Series? We're Cub cans, we don't know anything about that.

[jaxxradio]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

[Outshined_One]

I honestly don't get why people rag so much on OBP. It's such a fundamentally simple concept that does not go against anything traditional in baseball:

 

How good is a hitter at not getting out?

 

Don't you want hitters who make outs less often than everyone else? Isn't that what a hitter is supposed to do?

 

It's not without its flaws, but it's a much better evaluation tool than pretty much any other metric. I don't get the sheer amount of spite and hatred such a simple thing induces in certain people.

[imb]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

 

Not one "stat geek" would honestly say that Neifi Perez is better than Derek Jeter. No one thinks that, on either side of the fence.

 

You're either confused or making it up.

[jaxxradio]

Mike Jorgenson isn't my imagination bro.. he was in the meetings and had to hear it.. don't accuse me of lying dude..

[Warpticon]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

 

Apparently, you're lumping two different groups of people together: "stat geeks" and crazy people. I know nothing of the above scenario, but I'd love to know what stat supposedly supports Perez being better than Jeter. Every stat that exists except defensive ones show Jeter to be worlds and worlds better than Perez. Any so-called "stat geek" worth his salt would tell you the same.

[snoodmonger]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

 

Not one "stat geek" would honestly say that Neifi Perez is better than Derek Jeter. No one thinks that, on either side of the fence.

 

You're either confused or making it up.

 

Maybe they were saying he's a better defensive player than Jeter????? I just don't believe there's anyone out there who thinks he's a better overall player than Jeter.

[jaxxradio]

Jorgy told me they thought Nefi was better than Derek.. no lie

[imb]

Jorgy told me they thought Nefi was better than Derek.. no lie

 

Well, then he's confused, or the Cards have hired mongoloids in their "stat geek" department.

[CubColtPacer]

I honestly don't get why people rag so much on OBP. It's such a fundamentally simple concept that does not go against anything traditional in baseball:

 

How good is a hitter at not getting out?

 

Don't you want hitters who make outs less often than everyone else? Isn't that what a hitter is supposed to do?

 

It's not without its flaws, but it's a much better evaluation tool than pretty much any other metric. I don't get the sheer amount of spite and hatred such a simple thing induces in certain people.

 

Hmm..that's hard to tell Outshined. I think many people go against what is prevailing if it is not exactly what they believe. For example, most people would probably say that I hate OBP-I don't-in fact, I think that along with SLG are still the two most important stats one can use. I think OBP is overvalued generally on this board, just as I think it is undervalued in general in the baseball community. If I were talking to Dusty, I would be reminding him of the importance of OBP. When I discuss baseball with people here, I tend to need to stress the importance of other things in the game also. It is a balance in between all the different factors that makes a great team. Great OBP teams, great power teams, and great pitching and defense teams have all won the WS, along with combinations of all of the above. It is true that some people discount OBP completely, just as there are some people who say a bad OBP makes someone automatically a bad player. Neither of those are completely true-but for people like me, I see no need to defend that Dusty is not using OBP correctly whatsoever-because we already have that opinion in spades. Instead, I usually defend the traditional side of baseball-not because I think it's nearly completely right, but because I think too much of it has been lost-some of it should come back (I'm a firm believer in up the middle defense as well, and I've actually heard about new studies that there are certain positions that a great defender can save a great deal of runs with-I should be able to provide a link in a couple of weeks, a friend who I respect greatly has read them), but I certainly want to keep a great deal of the new research as well.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Whomever this guy is who is saying Neifi is better than Jeter ( :shock: !) should immediately replace Walt Jocketty.

[rocket]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

 

"Your people"? wtf?

 

Anyone who said Neifi is better than Jeter is a moron. But "your people" have said equally moronic things throughout the years. Maybe I should lump you in with those people since you do the same to "us people".

[TruffleShuffle]

I'll be glad to give you the example.. during the St. Louis Cardinals meetings this past off-season, there were the real "baseball guys" in a meeting with the "baseball geeks". Nefi Perez name came up (there might have been a possible trade in the works involving him). The stat-geeks TOLD LaRussa and the scouts that Nefi would be a great pick-up because he was a BETTER player than Derek Jeter. Those are "your people" at their finest...

 

"Your people"? wtf?

 

Anyone who said Neifi is better than Jeter is a moron. But "your people" have said equally moronic things throughout the years. Maybe I should lump you in with those people since you do the same to "us people".

 

See 15 page Joe Morgan thread...

[jaxxradio]

It was a joke lighten up please

[rocket]

SORRY

[imb]

It was a joke lighten up please

 

What was a joke?

[abuck1220]

It was a joke lighten up please

 

What was a joke?

 

this whole thread?

 

and congrats to patterson. sorry your thread had to be soiled with talk of how it's not important to get on base.

[KaiserCesar]

First off, you didn't really say why the stat geeks were saying Neifi is better. Also, all stat geeks are not represented in all of their views by one stat geek who may or may not actually exist and had poor reasoning skills. Now on to the Izturis deal which I'll try not to further hijack this thread.

 

Izturis gives you no improvement offensively and some defensively over what you already have. He also might block an acqusition of a better player because of overvaluing of defense by management. So, what's to like about this deal besides the ability to use some cliche about defense up the middle and some relationship to championships that is really unproven? I don't think you need to be a stat geek to be critical.

 

To the original point in this thread, good luck to EPatt, hopefully "Fontheriot" can move up to the big leagues and he can be given a chance to produce and maybe move up to ChiCubs within a couple of years.

[jaxxradio]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

[Transmogrified Tiger]

OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

I don't know how else to say it but this isn't remotely true.

[KaiserCesar]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

So you're saying it doesn't matter if you make outs if you hit 2-9?

[TruffleShuffle]

the "your people" was a joke.. if I offended anyone, I apologize.. OBP is good for the lead-off hitter, not important foranyone else..

 

I really don't understand this... everyone in the lineup can drive in runs, not just the guys in the middle of the lineup. And, the studies that have been done have shown that team OBP is strongly correlated to wins, not just leadoff hitter OBP.