what is the deal with prior???

[srbin84]

Yeah, of course we all want him to be pitching and pitching well, but at some point we need to shed our bias and liking of him and face the facts. I was one of the first to do this and preached to the masses; I was just saying it feels nice to be right now that others are following....considering the flak I took for defaming him.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah, of course we all want him to be pitching and pitching well, but at some point we need to shed our bias and liking of him and face the facts. I was one of the first to do this and preached to the masses; I was just saying it feels nice to be right now that others are following....considering the flak I took for defaming him.

 

Why do we have to shed our like for him? That's absurd.

 

Speaking of facing the facts, did you read my post about the abuse of Prior early in his career? Do you really think he's just a pansy who can't take the pain?

[srbin84]

Yeah, of course we all want him to be pitching and pitching well, but at some point we need to shed our bias and liking of him and face the facts. I was one of the first to do this and preached to the masses; I was just saying it feels nice to be right now that others are following....considering the flak I took for defaming him.

 

Why do we have to shed our like for him? That's absurd.

 

Speaking of facing the facts, did you read my post about the abuse of Prior early in his career? Do you really think he's just a pansy who can't take the pain?

 

What I was refering to was how people get it in their head that they like a certain player, and they will blind themselves to, and bash others for any criticism of the player at all no matter how logical it is or if it turns out to be proven true. I've offered a variety of possibilities: traumatophobia, weak body, low tolerance for pain (pansy). There are probably others too.

[Shavo]

My approach with Prior, Wood, and Miller would be to prepare them for next year. This means they should all be slowed down a bit. Don't rush Prior or Miller, and keep Wood at his current pace. Be carefull with their pitch counts and try to keep them out there the entire year after they get back. Then re evaluate them in the off season.

 

Hopefully this would go a long way in building their arm strength, and all 3 would be ready for next season. In 2007 ...

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Miller/Hill

Hill/Marshall/Williams/FA

 

We wouldn't have to worry about pitching in the off season. The Cubs can either pick up Wood's option or sign him for less (if he go's along). We save 9 mill on Maddux, Pierre's money is gone (replaced with Pie), ect. We could deffinatley sign/trade for a bat or two.

 

If you don't like what you see from Prior, Wood, or Miller, plan around them. This season is pretty hopeless, so why rush these guys back? They should be babied at this point.

 

Miller is a FA after this year, so he'll want to pitch. Wood is too, and the Cubs won't pick up that option if he doesn't do anything this year. And Prior, it doesn't matter what you do to safeguard, he will miss significant time just like he does every year.

 

I'm not saying don't pitch them. I am saying to be mighty carefull with them. Pitch them in more of a sense to feel them out for next year, don't worry about making them throw 120 pitches to win a close game.[/quote]

 

But if you pitch them carefully, can you make a good enough evaluation to decide whether you want to sign them at big money. Also, you might be right about this season being pretty hopeless now, but it's the beginning of May. If somehow the Cubs can figure out a way to ride out Lee's injury and still be less than 10 games out, the addition of Wood, Prior, Miller, Lee, and another midseason bat could make for a run at the division. I'm not saying I would bet on it, but you must admit that adding those players for the second half could make things interesting.

 

1 - Pitching them carefully now will hopefully stick in Dusty's brain for 2007. Dusty must learn to be more carefull with his pitchers. We also know the talent level of these guys. If they are healthy, they are elite. I think it is smarter to build them slow for 2007 then to rush them back this year and risk an injury to one of them. Then in 2007, we should pitch our starters more carefully to keep them healthy.

 

2 - This team has a slim shot to go to the playoffs with 2/3 of their outfield consisting of Juan Pierre and Jaque Jones. If it was as easy as saying "it is midseason, we will aquire a bat now", then you could have a point. The calibre of bat we could aquire at mid season wont put us over the top. This is COMBINED with the fact Lee's injury will nag him for a long time after he comes back.

[goonys evil twin]

What I was refering to was how people get it in their head that they like a certain player, and they will blind themselves to, and bash others for any criticism of the player at all no matter how logical it is or if it turns out to be proven true. I've offered a variety of possibilities: traumatophobia, weak body, low tolerance for pain (pansy). There are probably others too.

 

And if you take the time to look at the history of pitcher abuse by the Cubs against a very young Prior, you might see some other possibilities.

 

Regardless, I wouldn't feel vindicated because you think you've convinced the masses that Prior is a wimp.

[srbin84]

What I was refering to was how people get it in their head that they like a certain player, and they will blind themselves to, and bash others for any criticism of the player at all no matter how logical it is or if it turns out to be proven true. I've offered a variety of possibilities: traumatophobia, weak body, low tolerance for pain (pansy). There are probably others too.

 

And if you take the time to look at the history of pitcher abuse by the Cubs against a very young Prior, you might see some other possibilities.

 

Regardless, I wouldn't feel vindicated because you think you've convinced the masses that Prior is a wimp.

 

I never said he was wimp. I just said, he got hurt, he is hurt, and he is gonna get hurt. I don't know exactly why that is.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm wishing that those who call Prior a wimp get a well deserved case of food poisoning themselves. I think that would be poetic justice.

[soccer10k]

No I didn't, but I do think Wood not winning 15 games in a season is a big deal. I know that wins don't mean everything, but I continue to use them as a measuring stick regardless of that fact

 

Fixed what your post should read.

 

Fixed it to what it does and should read.

 

Obviously Wood has been injured a lot and I'm not saying that he's a horrible pitcher, I'm just saying that it seems to me that some people on this board consider him to be a god. Expecting Wood to have won a Cy Young or two by now isn't realistic. I said Cy Young caliber season. I never said and don't expect him to win 20-25 games and strike out 15+ per game. My point is that great pitchers find ways to win games and Kerry Wood hasn't done that over his career. In 2003 the Cubs won the division and 88 games and Wood only finished at 14-11 in 32 starts. In 2001 he went 12-6 in 28 starts and the Cubs won 88 games that year also. In 2002 he went 12-11 in 33 starts for a team that won just 67 games. Wouldn't you think that a guy that was supposed to be our ace in 2003 and at worst was our 2nd best pitcher would win 15 games. I don't think these expectations are high at all for a guy that is supposed to be great.

 

People are accusing me of having too high of expectations for Wood yet half the people on this board can't wait for Wood to return because they think he, and Prior, are going to save the season. And I'm the one expecting too much out of him? Please. Give me a break.

 

23 players won 15 games in 2005 including Rodrigo Lopez and Jake Westbrook.

23 players won 15 games in 2004 including Shawn Estes and Brian Lawrence

26 players won 15 games in 2003 including Jeriome Robertson, Ramon Ortiz and Gil Meche

28 players won 15 games in 2002 including Paul Byrd who won 17 games for a KC team that won 62 games

29 players won 15 games in 2001

25 players won 15 games in 2000

 

And you say that Kerry Wood winning 15 games isn't a big deal? Look at the complete lists for yourself and look at the players that have won 15 games. There are even players that won 15 games with ERA's over 5.

[Jon]

Cubs.com[/url]"]Prior sighting: Mark Prior threw long toss for the second straight day as he recovers from a bout of what he believes was food poisoning that pushed his timetable back a little bit in his rehabilitation from a shoulder strain.

 

"I'm doing all right," Prior said. "The most important thing is I was able to get some throwing in after a few days off. We'll just take it day by day until I get my strength back up. The thing right now is just trying to get the work in. Once I get back on the mound, it shouldn't take much longer."

 

Prior still feels he can get back into the Cubs' rotation by the end of May.

 

"That was my expectation going into this past weekend," Prior said. "I was right there at the cusp of getting into some simulated games. Right now, it's backed up until the latter part of this month, but I think it's possible."

 

The good thing is there have been no issues with his arm.

 

"The shoulder's been feeling good," Prior said. "It's responded well. I haven't had any problems with it at all."

[Laura]

They showed a video clip of him throwing during the WCIU broadcast and Len & Bob noted that he's expecting/hoping to be back by June 1.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....the real problem is $$$$$$ if you are paying a guy MILLIONS of dollars to throw a baseball, you want to get the most for your money, so when pitchers "feel" something, they shut him down...thinking it is better to lose him for a few weeks/months than end a career forever.....because ending the career means less $$$ for the team/owner....IMO

[Transmogrified Tiger]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

[CheeseHead Cubs Fan]

They showed a video clip of him throwing during the WCIU broadcast and Len & Bob noted that he's expecting/hoping to be back by June 1.

 

Yep, and I remember when he said he would be ready for the opening series in Cincy, then he said he would be ready by May 1. Now... June 1 .. Ok, pattern developing.

 

Ok Mark, see ya at the Cubs Convention and we can all hear you say how good you feel and how ready you are for the upcoming 2007 season!

 

This guy is a joke!

[srbin84]

I'm wishing that those who call Prior a wimp get a well deserved case of food poisoning themselves. I think that would be poetic justice.

 

Just to note again, I didn't call him a wimp; that was just goony's interpretation of what I wrote. I really just can't understand why everybody values stats so much in evaluating a player over a scout's eye, and for damn good reason........yet when it comes to injuries, the same people try to poke holes in the injury history or pretty much ignore it all together and go with their "scout's eye" and say everything will be fine.

Edited May 5, 2006 by srbin84

[Laura]

Just reporting what was said since a lot of people can't watch WCIU.

[stitchface]

23 players won 15 games in 2005 including Rodrigo Lopez and Jake Westbrook.

23 players won 15 games in 2004 including Shawn Estes and Brian Lawrence

26 players won 15 games in 2003 including Jeriome Robertson, Ramon Ortiz and Gil Meche

28 players won 15 games in 2002 including Paul Byrd who won 17 games for a KC team that won 62 games

29 players won 15 games in 2001

25 players won 15 games in 2000

 

And you say that Kerry Wood winning 15 games isn't a big deal? Look at the complete lists for yourself and look at the players that have won 15 games. There are even players that won 15 games with ERA's over 5.

 

This certainly proves that winning 15 games is not a useful standard for pitching well.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

[srbin84]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Great post.

[treebird]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Horrible post.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

Edited May 5, 2006 by ronsanto10

[srbin84]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Horrible post.

 

Come on, don't even try to tell me that everything would have played out the same if everything that happened to Prior happened to Rusch instead....no freaking way.

[treebird]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Horrible post.

 

Come on, don't even try to tell me that everything would have played out the same if everything that happened to Prior happened to Rusch instead....no freaking way.

 

i don't really know what you mean there at all

 

i just didn't like the post because the implication that prior is choosing not to pitch because he's so rich seems silly to me.

[srbin84]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Horrible post.

 

Come on, don't even try to tell me that everything would have played out the same if everything that happened to Prior happened to Rusch instead....no freaking way.

 

i don't really know what you mean there at all

 

i just didn't like the post because the implication that prior is choosing not to pitch because he's so rich seems silly to me.

 

What I got from his post is that Prior is being babied too much. What I said was that if Rusch had the exact same injuries as Prior has had the last three years, do you think the Cubs would have been as patient with him? They'd have probably released his fat butt a long time ago.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Horrible post.

 

Come on, don't even try to tell me that everything would have played out the same if everything that happened to Prior happened to Rusch instead....no freaking way.

 

i don't really know what you mean there at all

 

i just didn't like the post because the implication that prior is choosing not to pitch because he's so rich seems silly to me.

 

you misunderstood, the implication is the cubs are paying mark prior big money to pitch and they see fit to treat him with kid gloves when he "feels something" when he throws...the cubs have invested lots of money in prior and the cubs choose the course of his rehab...so i say the cubs are having prior take is slow to protect the cubs investment....

[treebird]

you misunderstood, the implication is the cubs are paying mark prior big money to pitch and they see fit to treat him with kid gloves when he "feels something" when he throws...the cubs have invested lots of money in prior and the cubs choose the course of his rehab...so i say the cubs are having prior take is slow to protect the cubs investment....

 

if that's what they're doing, i wish they'd started being careful with him a long time ago. 2002, maybe.