what is the deal with prior???

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Apparently, some people have never had food poisioning. I hope they get it so they can see if resting a few days after getting it is being babied.

[srbin84]

Apparently, some people have never had food poisioning. I hope they get it so they can see if resting a few days after getting it is being babied.

 

I for one don't give a damn if they give him 10 days to recover from that; I'm still mad about the accumulation of all the other injuries and time off.

Edited May 5, 2006 by srbin84

[ronsanto10]

Apparently, some people have never had food poisioning. I hope they get it so they can see if resting a few days after getting it is being babied.

im not talking about that....i mean he has been shut down for a shoulder strain since spring training...i have no prob with the food poisoning, but you also have to agree, it just seems like one thing after another with prior, he has had a run of bad luck, not to mention he owes some $$ for a signing that when bad a few years ago....

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

[badger1679666666]

 

Obviously Wood has been injured a lot and I'm not saying that he's a horrible pitcher, I'm just saying that it seems to me that some people on this board consider him to be a god. Expecting Wood to have won a Cy Young or two by now isn't realistic. I said Cy Young caliber season. I never said and don't expect him to win 20-25 games and strike out 15+ per game. My point is that great pitchers find ways to win games and Kerry Wood hasn't done that over his career. In 2003 the Cubs won the division and 88 games and Wood only finished at 14-11 in 32 starts. In 2001 he went 12-6 in 28 starts and the Cubs won 88 games that year also. In 2002 he went 12-11 in 33 starts for a team that won just 67 games. Wouldn't you think that a guy that was supposed to be our ace in 2003 and at worst was our 2nd best pitcher would win 15 games. I don't think these expectations are high at all for a guy that is supposed to be great.

 

People are accusing me of having too high of expectations for Wood yet half the people on this board can't wait for Wood to return because they think he, and Prior, are going to save the season. And I'm the one expecting too much out of him? Please. Give me a break.

 

23 players won 15 games in 2005 including Rodrigo Lopez and Jake Westbrook.

23 players won 15 games in 2004 including Shawn Estes and Brian Lawrence

26 players won 15 games in 2003 including Jeriome Robertson, Ramon Ortiz and Gil Meche

28 players won 15 games in 2002 including Paul Byrd who won 17 games for a KC team that won 62 games

29 players won 15 games in 2001

25 players won 15 games in 2000

 

And you say that Kerry Wood winning 15 games isn't a big deal? Look at the complete lists for yourself and look at the players that have won 15 games. There are even players that won 15 games with ERA's over 5.

 

1) Someone on another thread posted 9 outings in which Wood gave up 2,1, or 0 runs, in 7 ip or more, in 2003 only to have the bullpen blow it, or the offense not score enough. Are you so obtuse, that you can't see this? Christ. give ME a break.

 

2) No one is accusing you of having to high expectations. People are accusing you of using a inneffective method of judging a pitchers efficacy. Which it is. Plain and simple, it is baseball-challenged logic if you use wins as a metric.

 

3) The listing of all those pitchers who won 15 games that sucked balls should show you how useless that is of a metric.

 

However if you are going to continue to use this flawed and useless metric to judge a pitcher, by all means do so. After all astute baseball minds like Thom Brenneman do too.

[srbin84]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

[ronsanto10]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

but the thing is in 2003, if prior woulda sat, everyone would have questioned his "toughness" if/when the cubs lost... you cant have it both ways... we all wanted to ride woody and prior to the world series in 2003, as im sure prior wanted the ball...i think this is very frustrating for all us fans cuz the cubs are stinking it up now...not to mention the frustration prior must be feeling.....

[oldstyle81]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

The cubs dont make the 2003 playoffs without what Prior did, we just barely made it in as was

 

i wouldnt call a team that made it to the NLCS mediocre either

[goonys evil twin]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

[oldstyle81]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

 

they do, just look at Sandy Kofax (sp) used way to much and destoryed his arm.

[srbin84]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

 

Sabathia?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

but the thing is in 2003, if prior woulda sat, everyone would have questioned his "toughness" if/when the cubs lost... you cant have it both ways... we all wanted to ride woody and prior to the world series in 2003, as im sure prior wanted the ball...i think this is very frustrating for all us fans cuz the cubs are stinking it up now...not to mention the frustration prior must be feeling.....

 

I know that we likely don't make the playoffs without riding Prior so hard. That's why I'm not moaning and bitching at him about his injuries now. We're just paying up for that wonderful ride in 2003. I just hope everyone thinks it was worth it.

[goonys evil twin]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Kevin Tapani? I thought all the "we pitched deep every game or we were wimps" talk was revisionist history, this just proves it. Tapani was crap.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Kevin Tapani? I thought all the "we pitched deep every game or we were wimps" talk was revisionist history, this just proves it. Tapani was crap.

career W-L---143-125 = better than average...or crap as you call it...either way...that does not discount the fact that starters were expected to pitch 8 innings back then and now 6 innings is considered a good outing... and i know all about set up guys and all that stuff...im just saying...

[treebird]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Kevin Tapani? I thought all the "we pitched deep every game or we were wimps" talk was revisionist history, this just proves it. Tapani was crap.

career W-L---143-125 = better than average...or crap as you call it...either way...that does not discount the fact that starters were expected to pitch 8 innings back then and now 6 innings is considered a good outing... and i know all about set up guys and all that stuff...im just saying...

 

kevin tapani started 354 games

 

he came in as a reliever in 7 games

 

let's give him the benefit of the doubt and just pretend those 7 games don't exist. this will result in his ip/start being slightly higher, as he's getting those relief innings counted in with his starting innings.

 

2265 career innings pitched / 354 starts = 6.39 innings pitched per start

 

kevin tapani = huge wimp

[Chris]

Tapini with 19 wins in a season with an ERA at 4.85. That is some run support.

[ronsanto10]

pitch counts....thats lame...back in the day, they would throw till thier arms fell off....

 

They also didn't wear helmets back in the day, and faced several terrible hitters in just about every lineup that they didn't have to bear down for.

tonight on WGN, david kaplan talked to Kevin Tapani, and they talked about pitch counts....he said that when he pitched, it was expected of them to make it 8 innings to not let the team down, now a good outing is comsidered 6 innings or so, and you cant say that money has nothing to do with it, i dont care if they wore helmets or not, baseball is big business and the team wants to protect the investment.....

 

Kevin Tapani? I thought all the "we pitched deep every game or we were wimps" talk was revisionist history, this just proves it. Tapani was crap.

career W-L---143-125 = better than average...or crap as you call it...either way...that does not discount the fact that starters were expected to pitch 8 innings back then and now 6 innings is considered a good outing... and i know all about set up guys and all that stuff...im just saying...

 

kevin tapani started 354 games

 

he came in as a reliever in 7 games

 

let's give him the benefit of the doubt and just pretend those 7 games don't exist. this will result in his ip/start being slightly higher, as he's getting those relief innings counted in with his starting innings.

 

2265 career innings pitched / 354 starts = 6.39 innings pitched per start

 

kevin tapani = huge wimp

so you are saying that the general thinking of 6 innings by todays pitchers being a good outing and the thinking that in the past starters were expected to pitch more innings per start is not the case because you think tapani is a huge wimp?? i dont want to get into a p****ing match with you, i was just passing on what i heard from an ex-big league pitcher and how it translates to the situation now....im not trying to make you mad

[treebird]

so you are saying that the general thinking of 6 innings by todays pitchers being a good outing and the thinking that in the past starters were expected to pitch more innings per start is not the case because you think tapani is a huge wimp?? i dont want to get into a p****ing match with you, i was just passing on what i heard from an ex-big league pitcher and how it translates to the situation now....im not trying to make you mad

 

do you really think that many pithers make a habit of asking out of games? if not, why does it matter if they think 6 good innings makes a good start? i'm sure all major leaguers think 7 good innings is better than 6 good innings. i'm not seeing these starts where a pitcher makes it through 6 innings with a low pitch count and then decides that's good enough so he comes out.

 

if you're advocating the notion that pitchers should ignore pitch counts and instead pitch deep into every game without exception, well, we aren't going to agree much here.

[NCCubFan]

Sabathia?

Your signature unfortunately needs updating. :(

[soapy]

Bruce gives another Prior update

[ronsanto10]

so you are saying that the general thinking of 6 innings by todays pitchers being a good outing and the thinking that in the past starters were expected to pitch more innings per start is not the case because you think tapani is a huge wimp?? i dont want to get into a p****ing match with you, i was just passing on what i heard from an ex-big league pitcher and how it translates to the situation now....im not trying to make you mad

 

do you really think that many pithers make a habit of asking out of games? if not, why does it matter if they think 6 good innings makes a good start? i'm sure all major leaguers think 7 good innings is better than 6 good innings. i'm not seeing these starts where a pitcher makes it through 6 innings with a low pitch count and then decides that's good enough so he comes out.

 

if you're advocating the notion that pitchers should ignore pitch counts and instead pitch deep into every game without exception, well, we aren't going to agree much here.

im saying that in baseball as in life if you go into something with lower expectaions(more innings vs less innings) more times than not, you will reach the lower expections...the mindset of MLB, from what i hear, is that if a starter goes 6 innings, then the relievers can finish it up, so maybe the starter is not as frugal with thier pitch count, knowing that he wont have to finish up, as compared to the past when a starter knew that 8 innings were expected from him, he would manage his pitches to get him there.....

[goonys evil twin]

im saying that in baseball as in life if you go into something with lower expectaions(more innings vs less innings) more times than not, you will reach the lower expections...the mindset of MLB, from what i hear, is that if a starter goes 6 innings, then the relievers can finish it up, so maybe the starter is not as frugal with thier pitch count, knowing that he wont have to finish up, as compared to the past when a starter knew that 8 innings were expected from him, he would manage his pitches to get him there.....

 

Kevin Tapani didn't pitch 8 innings a game. Anything he says on the subject is null and void because he's in the same boat as all these other "modern pitchers".

[Soul]

Bruce gives another Prior update

 

 

The Cubs went into Thursday batting .222 (82-for-370) in their previous 12 games after getting off to a .279 mark in team batting average.

 

On top of that, the Cubs were just 3-for-25 (.120) with runners in scoring position over the previous five games after going 14-for-38 (.368) with men in scoring position over the previous five games.

 

 

:shock:

 

And this all started when Lee got injured......

 

His injury might cost us 10 games in the standings if we keep this up.

[ronsanto10]

im saying that in baseball as in life if you go into something with lower expectaions(more innings vs less innings) more times than not, you will reach the lower expections...the mindset of MLB, from what i hear, is that if a starter goes 6 innings, then the relievers can finish it up, so maybe the starter is not as frugal with thier pitch count, knowing that he wont have to finish up, as compared to the past when a starter knew that 8 innings were expected from him, he would manage his pitches to get him there.....

 

Kevin Tapani didn't pitch 8 innings a game. Anything he says on the subject is null and void because he's in the same boat as all these other "modern pitchers".

 

i am talking of the differences in the way the game is played by the pitchers prespective then as opposed to now, and since he played then, i think what he says does have some bearing....some sports writers feel the way the game is played now vs then has changed, can we at least agree on that??

[goonys evil twin]

i am talking of the differences in the way the game is played by the pitchers prespective then as opposed to now, and since he played then, i think what he says does have some bearing....some sports writers feel the way the game is played now vs then has changed, can we at least agree on that??

 

Tapani is a part of the modern era. He is not a "then" era pitcher. And I don't care what some sportswriters think. A lot of old men think everybody was tougher in the old days. It's nothing but sentimental mythical BS. Today's pitchers approach the game just like yesterday's pitchers.