Aramis Ramirez or Scott Rolen?

[K-Town]

If you consider both offense and defense, which player would you rather have on your team. John Kruk called Rolen the best third baseman in the league, although I'm not sure if he meant just defensively. But regardless of that, all things considered, which one would you want?

 

John Kruk is wrong. Right now, it's probably David Wright.

[Jehrico]

Rolen may have lost a step, but he is still the best defensive 3B in the league. Ramirez is clearly the better offensive player, is improving defensively (though he will never be Rolen with the glove), and is younger. They both have a history in injuries, but as it was pointed out Rolen's injuries are structural and somewhat chronic. Ramirez's injuries have been muscular.

 

It's a tough call, but if I were building a team I'd go with Ramirez. If I needed to win right now I might go with Rolen. 2 or 3 years from now this would be a no brainer for Aramis.

 

How is that clear?

 

Rolen's Career: .284/.376/.515

 

Ramirez Career: .277/.329/.481

 

 

For this year and next I'd take Rolen after that Ramirez.

 

That's a little misleading, considering Rolen's numbers include his prime, and Ramirez's numbers only include developmental years up through 25 and no prime years to boost his numbers.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Rolen may have lost a step, but he is still the best defensive 3B in the league. Ramirez is clearly the better offensive player, is improving defensively (though he will never be Rolen with the glove), and is younger. They both have a history in injuries, but as it was pointed out Rolen's injuries are structural and somewhat chronic. Ramirez's injuries have been muscular.

 

It's a tough call, but if I were building a team I'd go with Ramirez. If I needed to win right now I might go with Rolen. 2 or 3 years from now this would be a no brainer for Aramis.

 

How is that clear?

 

Rolen's Career: .284/.376/.515

 

Ramirez Career: .277/.329/.481

 

 

For this year and next I'd take Rolen after that Ramirez.

 

That's a little misleading, considering Rolen's numbers include his prime, and Ramirez's numbers only include developmental years up through 25 and no prime years to boost his numbers.

 

True however even Rolen's developmental years were clearly superior to ARam's.

[rawaction]

If both players are 100% healthy in 2006, I take Rolen....simply becuase he has consistently shown he will walk in about 11-12% of his plate appearances.

 

I think Ramirez has a better chance than Rolen to stay healthy, FWIW, considering age and nature of past injuries.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Rolen has been the better player to date, but now going forward I have to take Ramirez. Ramirez has had injury concerns, but nothing that has impacted his performance or caused him to miss significant time. Rolen's serious shoulder injury casts doubt on him being able to return to his previous performance. Add in that Ramirez is entering his prime while Rolen will be leaving his, and I'll take Ramirez.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Rolen may have lost a step, but he is still the best defensive 3B in the league. Ramirez is clearly the better offensive player, is improving defensively (though he will never be Rolen with the glove), and is younger. They both have a history in injuries, but as it was pointed out Rolen's injuries are structural and somewhat chronic. Ramirez's injuries have been muscular.

 

It's a tough call, but if I were building a team I'd go with Ramirez. If I needed to win right now I might go with Rolen. 2 or 3 years from now this would be a no brainer for Aramis.

 

How is that clear?

 

Rolen's Career: .284/.376/.515

 

Ramirez Career: .277/.329/.481

 

 

For this year and next I'd take Rolen after that Ramirez.

 

Going by 3yr averages, they appaer very similar.

 

Rolen: 289/384/533/917

Ramirez: 296/350/532/882

 

The key difference is that Rolen provides an extra 30 points in OBP. Given current age and other factors, I'll take Ramirez.

[Jehrico]

NL Third Basemen (current value):

 

I could argue any of these guys in any order, but I'd go this way at the moment.

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

3.) Scott Rolen

4.) Aramis Ramirez

 

 

5.) Zimmerman (btw - by reputation, probably the best defender of the bunch at this point)

 

 

NL Third Basemen (future value):

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

 

 

3.) Aramis Ramirez (injury concerns drop him down)

 

 

4.) Scott Rolen

5.) Zimmerman (could be higher, but needs to prove it)

 

 

 

Ian Stewart and Ryan Braun probably need to figure in here somehow, too.

 

Cabrera is a hard one to place for me. I've never had the feeling his future lied at 3b, I have a feeling he's going to be an OFer sooner or later. We all know as Cubs fans that you can't just put any butcher out there at 3b. But then again, Aramis was known as a butcher when we got him, but he's come far enough along to make us think he's going to stick there. Maybe Cabrera will too. I've never seen Wright play 3b enough to judge whether or not he looks to stick there.

[K-Town]

Rolen may have lost a step, but he is still the best defensive 3B in the league. Ramirez is clearly the better offensive player, is improving defensively (though he will never be Rolen with the glove), and is younger. They both have a history in injuries, but as it was pointed out Rolen's injuries are structural and somewhat chronic. Ramirez's injuries have been muscular.

 

It's a tough call, but if I were building a team I'd go with Ramirez. If I needed to win right now I might go with Rolen. 2 or 3 years from now this would be a no brainer for Aramis.

 

How is that clear?

 

Rolen's Career: .284/.376/.515

 

Ramirez Career: .277/.329/.481

 

 

For this year and next I'd take Rolen after that Ramirez.

 

Going by 3yr averages, they appaer very similar.

 

Rolen: 289/384/533/917

Ramirez: 296/350/532/882

 

The key difference is that Rolen provides an extra 30 points in OBP. Given current age and other factors, I'll take Ramirez.

 

"Other Factors" = "I'm a Cubs fan".

 

 

:lol:

[NorthsideAvenger]

NL Third Basemen (current value):

 

I could argue any of these guys in any order, but I'd go this way at the moment.

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

3.) Scott Rolen

4.) Aramis Ramirez

 

 

5.) Zimmerman (btw - by reputation, probably the best defender of the bunch at this point)

 

 

NL Third Basemen (future value):

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

 

 

3.) Aramis Ramirez (injury concerns drop him down)

 

 

4.) Scott Rolen

5.) Zimmerman (could be higher, but needs to prove it)

 

 

 

Ian Stewart and Ryan Braun probably need to figure in here somehow, too.

 

I agree Tim.

 

I don't know for how long Wright will be at 3rd though, but I'd say for the next five years he will be near the top. But his long- long term future is at 1st.

 

So, this maybe abit basis, but I'd take Ramirez over Rolen because ARam is so much tougher to pitch to then Rolen.

 

But, I'd take Wright and Cabrera over ARam, ever-so-slightly.

[K-Town]

Rolen has been better than Ramirez this year (small sample - granted), and career-wise. If you want to pick & choose years (last year, when Rolen was injured) then you can make a case for A-ram, but it would be a reach, at this point.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

So, this maybe abit basis, but I'd take Ramirez over Rolen because ARam is so much tougher to pitch to then Rolen.

 

What do you mean tougher to pitch to?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

So, this maybe abit basis, but I'd take Ramirez over Rolen because ARam is so much tougher to pitch to then Rolen.

 

What do you mean tougher to pitch to?

 

Rolen doesn't have the nads to kick the crap out of a pitcher after the game for not pitching right.

[Soul]

Others have already said it, I may as well throw my hat into the same ring.

 

For now, Rolen is the better player. But I'd take ARAM because he's younger---more of his future is ahead of him.

 

They are both good players. I don't think either team can complain.

[Andy]

I think for this year and as long as both remain active from here on, Ramirez will be the superior player each season.

[Guest]

NL Third Basemen (current value):

 

I could argue any of these guys in any order, but I'd go this way at the moment.

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

3.) Scott Rolen

4.) Aramis Ramirez

 

 

5.) Zimmerman (btw - by reputation, probably the best defender of the bunch at this point)

 

 

NL Third Basemen (future value):

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

 

 

3.) Aramis Ramirez (injury concerns drop him down)

 

 

4.) Scott Rolen

5.) Zimmerman (could be higher, but needs to prove it)

 

 

 

Ian Stewart and Ryan Braun probably need to figure in here somehow, too.

 

I agree Tim.

 

I don't know for how long Wright will be at 3rd though, but I'd say for the next five years he will be near the top. But his long- long term future is at 1st.

I'm not sure why you say that. I've only seen him play 5-7 games, but he's looked good there when I've watched him. He certainly has the athleticism to play there (and then some). If you're talking when he's 35-40, I might agree, but that's around 12+ years from now.

[srbin84]

NL Third Basemen (current value):

 

I could argue any of these guys in any order, but I'd go this way at the moment.

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

3.) Scott Rolen

4.) Aramis Ramirez

 

 

5.) Zimmerman (btw - by reputation, probably the best defender of the bunch at this point)

 

 

NL Third Basemen (future value):

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

 

 

3.) Aramis Ramirez (injury concerns drop him down)

 

 

4.) Scott Rolen

5.) Zimmerman (could be higher, but needs to prove it)

 

 

 

Ian Stewart and Ryan Braun probably need to figure in here somehow, too.

 

I agree Tim.

 

I don't know for how long Wright will be at 3rd though, but I'd say for the next five years he will be near the top. But his long- long term future is at 1st.

I'm not sure why you say that. I've only seen him play 5-7 games, but he's looked good there when I've watched him. He certainly has the athleticism to play there (and then some). If you're talking when he's 35-40, I might agree, but that's around 12+ years from now.

 

I agree with Tim. I've seen at least 10 games of him, and I think he is pretty good.

 

Here is an excerpt from his ESPN scouting report:

 

Baserunning & Defense

 

As good as Wright is at the plate, he is just as solid in the field. He has great hands for third base and an above-average arm. He can field bunts cleanly, and he moves well to his right and left with his outstanding range.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=7382

[Rumbach]

Rolen, because he was a senior in my high school when I was a freshman. :D

[CubinNY]

NL Third Basemen (current value):

 

I could argue any of these guys in any order, but I'd go this way at the moment.

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

3.) Scott Rolen

4.) Aramis Ramirez

 

 

5.) Zimmerman (btw - by reputation, probably the best defender of the bunch at this point)

 

 

NL Third Basemen (future value):

 

1.) David Wright

2.) Miguel Cabrera

 

 

3.) Aramis Ramirez (injury concerns drop him down)

 

 

4.) Scott Rolen

5.) Zimmerman (could be higher, but needs to prove it)

 

 

 

Ian Stewart and Ryan Braun probably need to figure in here somehow, too.

 

I agree Tim.

 

I don't know for how long Wright will be at 3rd though, but I'd say for the next five years he will be near the top. But his long- long term future is at 1st.

I'm not sure why you say that. I've only seen him play 5-7 games, but he's looked good there when I've watched him. He certainly has the athleticism to play there (and then some). If you're talking when he's 35-40, I might agree, but that's around 12+ years from now.

 

I agree with Tim. I've seen at least 10 games of him, and I think he is pretty good.

 

Here is an excerpt from his ESPN scouting report:

 

Baserunning & Defense

 

As good as Wright is at the plate, he is just as solid in the field. He has great hands for third base and an above-average arm. He can field bunts cleanly, and he moves well to his right and left with his outstanding range.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=7382

 

Don't believe ESPN's scouting report. As of the end of last year he averaged 1 error every six games. Last year he led all of major league baseball in errors at his position. He has a strong but inaccurate throwing arm and little range.

 

This is not to say he won't get better, because he probably will.

[K-Town]

Don't believe ESPN's scouting report. As of the end of last year he averaged 1 error every six games. Last year he led all of major league baseball in errors at his position. He has a strong but inaccurate throwing arm and little range.

 

This is not to say he won't get better, because he probably will.

 

 

He may have made some rookie mistakes last year, but I've never seen anything but excellent reports about David Wright's defense. Here's what Baseball America said about him, as a minor leaguer:

 

He makes all the plays at third base. He's one of the best in the minors at charging bunts and choppers, and he also shows a major league arm with good accuracy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

BP's metrics have him dead average, 100 rate and 0 FRAA

[K-Town]

BP's metrics have him dead average, 100 rate and 0 FRAA

 

Considering he's only 23, I'd say that's pretty sporty.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

When does a players defense peak? Is it around 27?

[CubinNY]

Don't believe ESPN's scouting report. As of the end of last year he averaged 1 error every six games. Last year he led all of major league baseball in errors at his position. He has a strong but inaccurate throwing arm and little range.

 

This is not to say he won't get better, because he probably will.

 

 

He may have made some rookie mistakes last year, but I've never seen anything but excellent reports about David Wright's defense. Here's what Baseball America said about him, as a minor leaguer:

 

He makes all the plays at third base. He's one of the best in the minors at charging bunts and choppers, and he also shows a major league arm with good accuracy.

 

And I've heard scouts on the radio and read in print that his ultimate future is at first base. I am going by what I've seen living outside NYC and heard here.

 

After about the first month of the season rookie "jitters" likely wear off. Regardless, Wright wasn't a rookie last year. In 2004 he played 68 games at 3rd and made 11 errors.

 

I cannot find Wright's minor league numbers, but thus far his error rate has been fairly consistent his 1.5 years in the bigs.

 

Please note. I said he would be my pick for the best overall 3rd baseman so let's not try and paint a picture that I am saying he is terrible. He is not terrible.

 

In five years he will be nearing 30 and a move to 1st base is not all that unusual.

[K-Town]

Don't believe ESPN's scouting report. As of the end of last year he averaged 1 error every six games. Last year he led all of major league baseball in errors at his position. He has a strong but inaccurate throwing arm and little range.

 

This is not to say he won't get better, because he probably will.

 

 

He may have made some rookie mistakes last year, but I've never seen anything but excellent reports about David Wright's defense. Here's what Baseball America said about him, as a minor leaguer:

 

He makes all the plays at third base. He's one of the best in the minors at charging bunts and choppers, and he also shows a major league arm with good accuracy.

 

And I've heard scouts on the radio and read in print that his ultimate future is at first base. I am going by what I've seen living outside NYC and heard here.

 

After about the first month of the season rookie "jitters" likely wear off. Regardless, Wright wasn't a rookie last year. In 2004 he played 68 games at 3rd and made 11 errors.

 

I cannot find Wright's minor league numbers, but thus far his error rate has been fairly consistent his 1.5 years in the bigs.

 

Please note. I said he would be my pick for the best overall 3rd baseman so let's not try and paint a picture that I am saying he is terrible. He is not terrible.

 

In five years he will be nearing 30 and a move to 1st base is not all that unusual.

 

I'd be interested in hearing who says that he'll ultimately end up at first base. I've followed his career pretty closely, and haven't heard so much as a whisper about that. My understanding is that his defense is very good for a 23-year old.

[CubinNY]

I'd be interested in hearing who says that he'll ultimately end up at first base. I've followed his career pretty closely, and haven't heard so much as a whisper about that. My understanding is that his defense is very good for a 23-year old.

 

You've followed his career closely but didn't know he wasn't a rookie last year?

 

Look, Wright is going to be very good offensively. That does not automatically make him very good defensively.