You cannot underestimate the importance of speed

[Rob]

On somewhat of a sidenote:

 

There still is the argument that has been made that a speedy, more aggressive player would be more effective in a pinch hitting role. I don't have the numbers to look at off the top of my head, but it seems logical and it fits with my personal observations.

 

Granted, no amount of work would make Tom Goodwin useful, but still...

 

It'd be interesting to see the numbers, to say the least.

[anemic offense]

On somewhat of a sidenote:

 

There still is the argument that has been made that a speedy, more aggressive player would be more effective in a pinch hitting role. I don't have the numbers to look at off the top of my head, but it seems logical and it fits with my personal observations.

 

Granted, no amount of work would make Tom Goodwin useful, but still...

 

It'd be interesting to see the numbers, to say the least.

 

I don't know about that, although I would think a speedy pinch hitter may be more useful in certain situations. Coming up when one can ill-afford to hit into a double play comes immediately to mind.

[stitchface]

I'm confused - if you can't underestimate its importance, doesn't that imply its not very important?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Then why'd we get rid of Patterson?

 

b/c he couldn't get on base. what does that have to do with speed not slumping?

 

i realize you can't use speed w/o getting on base, but that's a separate argument from speed not slumping.

 

No, it's exactly the argument. The saying "Speed doesn't slump" isn't referring to basestealing, it's referring to guys not going into hitting slumps because they can use their speed when they struggle. Unfortunately, speed does slump, because slumping rarely has anything to do with speed. Corey Patterson has a ton of speed and slumped terribly because he couldn't make contact and when he did he hit it straight in the air. Neifi Perez has some speed, and he can slump terribly because all he does is weakly hit groundballs.

 

It sounds nice to say "Speed doesn't slump", but it's not true. If you can't hit you can't hit(whether it's your true ability or a bad stretch), and occasionally beating out an occasional chopper or bunt doesn't change that.

[badger1679666666]

Speed doesn't slump.

 

Then why'd we get rid of Patterson?

 

b/c he couldn't get on base. what does that have to do with speed not slumping?

 

i realize you can't use speed w/o getting on base, but that's a separate argument from speed not slumping.

 

No, it's exactly the argument. The saying "Speed doesn't slump" isn't referring to basestealing, it's referring to guys not going into hitting slumps because they can use their speed when they struggle. Unfortunately, speed does slump, because slumping rarely has anything to do with speed. Corey Patterson has a ton of speed and slumped terribly because he couldn't make contact and when he did he hit it straight in the air. Neifi Perez has some speed, and he can slump terribly because all he does is weakly hit groundballs.

 

It sounds nice to say "Speed doesn't slump", but it's not true. If you can't hit you can't hit(whether it's your true ability or a bad stretch), and occasionally beating out an occasional chopper or bunt doesn't change that.

 

Neifi does NOT have speed.

[anemic offense]

I'm confused - if you can't underestimate its importance, doesn't that imply its not very important?

 

No, I was telling people they can't as in they shouldn't. I should have worded it differently.

[Monco]

When a team is built on speed even when they aren't hitting well they are still able to put pressure on the defense.A fast baserunner gives the pitcher something to think about.Hes more likely to throw more fastballs.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Speed is important and today it is undervalued by the marketplace.

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

The Furcal deal inflated the price of leadoff hitters (still TBD by Pierre's next contract), not speed. It's a fairly significant difference.

[imb]

When a team is built on speed even when they aren't hitting well they are still able to put pressure on the defense.A fast baserunner gives the pitcher something to think about.Hes more likely to throw more fastballs.

 

do you know this or are you just repeating someone?

[WrigleyField 22]

We're fast cuz we have holes in our helmets. Those will win a couple games this year. Add another couple from the helmets when they keep our white guys cool during hot summer games.

[abuck1220]

 

It was definitely a lot different than recent Cubs offenses. Only 3 of the 16 runs came via a homerun. There were lots of hits and a few sacs.

 

same thing happened last year on opening day, and people were saying the same thing.

 

yeah, it'd be great if the cubs could single their way to 17 hits every game, but it ain't gonna happen.

[jjgman21]

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

 

1. Furcal has more skills than just speed

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

 

I heard a tidbit a few months ago, I think was a secondhand account of something Beane said, that since all the post-Moneyball hubbabaloo, OBP is starting to get valued properly, and speed is now a skill that is undervalued.

[Rob]

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

See: Benson, Kris

[srbin84]

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

 

1. Furcal has more skills than just speed

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

 

I heard a tidbit a few months ago, I think was a secondhand account of something Beane said, that since all the post-Moneyball hubbabaloo, OBP is starting to get valued properly, and speed is now a skill that is undervalued.

 

It doesn't seem to make sense that he would trade a guy like Bynum if he really believed that.

[frostwyrm]

Speed is important and today it is undervalued by the marketplace.

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

The Furcal deal inflated the price of leadoff hitters (still TBD by Pierre's next contract), not speed. It's a fairly significant difference.

 

I don't think there will be any significant difference once the market works itself out. Any fast base-stealer with otherwise average ability will be getting a big raise. Corey won't though, not until his overall numbers improve to an acceptable level.

[frostwyrm]

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

 

1. Furcal has more skills than just speed

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

 

I heard a tidbit a few months ago, I think was a secondhand account of something Beane said, that since all the post-Moneyball hubbabaloo, OBP is starting to get valued properly, and speed is now a skill that is undervalued.

 

Furcal has other skills, but there is no way in hell he gets his contract without the "speedy base-stealer" label.

[Rob]

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

 

1. Furcal has more skills than just speed

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

 

I heard a tidbit a few months ago, I think was a secondhand account of something Beane said, that since all the post-Moneyball hubbabaloo, OBP is starting to get valued properly, and speed is now a skill that is undervalued.

 

It doesn't seem to make sense that he would trade a guy like Bynum if he really believed that.

 

Saying speed is undervalued doesn't necessarily mean it's undervalued by everybody.

 

Perhaps the Rangers (and us, by proxy) overvalued it a bit too much and Beane took advantage of it.

[nilodnayr]

When a team is built on speed even when they aren't hitting well they are still able to put pressure on the defense.A fast baserunner gives the pitcher something to think about.Hes more likely to throw more fastballs.

 

do you know this or are you just repeating someone?

 

Heres some good reading to enlighten you, Monco. IMO their analysis actually overstates the impact by double counting by incorporating hitters and pitchers stats.

 

 

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/base-stealer-intangibles-part-1/

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/base-stealer-intangibles-part-2/

[nilodnayr]

 

The Furcal deal has inflated the price of speed quite a bit. Hard to see it as undervalued now. Pierre has been overrated for a while too on account of his speed and he's going to get way too big a deal, hopefuly not from the Cubs.

 

 

1. Furcal has more skills than just speed

2. One stupid deal by one stupid team does not shift an entire market for players.

 

 

I heard a tidbit a few months ago, I think was a secondhand account of something Beane said, that since all the post-Moneyball hubbabaloo, OBP is starting to get valued properly, and speed is now a skill that is undervalued.

 

It doesn't seem to make sense that he would trade a guy like Bynum if he really believed that.

 

Saying speed is undervalued doesn't necessarily mean it's undervalued by everybody.

 

Perhaps the Rangers (and us, by proxy) overvalued it a bit too much and Beane took advantage of it.

 

Perhaps life is not in a vacuum. Bynum had no place on the team with their glut of outfielders and Scutaro and Perez taking care of middle infield depth. Regardless of the assets that Bynum has, they simply are not enough to put him ahead of any of the As on the ML roster. So, Beane got him a ton of ABs (more than any other A, not on the 25 man roster) and showcased him. Personally, I dont think we gave up anything for Bynum, so I dont think we overvalued anything.

[srbin84]

Whatever Texas gave Oakland to get Koronka couldn't have been worth much.

[Rob]

Whatever Texas gave Oakland to get Koronka couldn't have been worth much.

 

It could have been worth more than an option-less utility guy that sits at the back of their depth chart.

[BigbadB]

If Juan Pierre hits for a .326 OBP again this year, he's Alex Sanchez.

 

Alex Sanchez can't land a starting job in the major leagues.

 

If 2005 was just an off year for Pierre, and he'll get his OBP back over .360, I'll be just fine with him at the top of the order.

 

It's not really his speed at the top of the line up that concerns me. It's his ability to get on base. Oh, and to stay on base (as in not getting picked off or caught stealing).

 

If he puts up a .360+ OBP, yes, his speed is an added bonus. If he's at .326 again in 2006, then he's just another speedy guy who can't get on base, and we could have saved prospects and nearly 6m by bringing back Tom Goodwin.

 

Speed did look good in this game. But, there will be games where you wish you had some respectable power coming off the bench rather than speed.

 

And there are going to be games when Pierre gets thrown out attempting to steal 2nd right before Derrek Lee hits a solo home run that "could" have been a 2 run shot.

 

I like speed. In the big picture, it's good the Cubs have all this speed. But, I think they are lacking in OBP and I think they are lacking in power, and that might end up hurting them.

[Northsider]

Just on the topic of speed . . . check out Herzog's book, I think it's called "You're missing a great game". His book praises speed, defense, pitching, and the basic fundamentals (see some of his stories about Casey Stengel). He praises speed quite a bit in that book.

[CuseCubFan69]

I like having a good blend of power and spees on a team. There will be times when speed wins a game and times when power wins a game. I see no reason to be one dementional. I don't like the fact that the bench has no power hitters though.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Just on the topic of speed . . . check out Herzog's book, I think it's called "You're missing a great game". His book praises speed, defense, pitching, and the basic fundamentals (see some of his stories about Casey Stengel). He praises speed quite a bit in that book.

 

Of course he praises speed. He managed a track team in a cavernous stadium and had an awful lot of success. It was a much different game when he managed.