Cedeno & Murton

[CubsFanSince1978]

Why does Murton get a higher rating than Cedeno from the mayority? They are very much alike in the way they approach the plate. I think Murton is clearer in the minds of fans because he had more playing time, while Cedeno got injured. But I was left with a very strong impression of Cedeno and his maturity, showing that he is fundamentally sound, despite being only 22.

 

Both are equally patient hitters....But I think Cedeno has a slightly better eye. He's very selective...doesn't swing at pitches away or in the dirt; doesn't swing away at the first pitch all the time (like most of Dusty's vets). Cedeno is a linedrive/gap hitter that hits well to both sides. Murton also hits well to both sides, and got many infield hits, and is more of a ground ball hitter than Cedeno.

 

I see them as "small ball" or "smart ball" players. Dusty can now work with a good 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have the excuse of a slow "baseclogger." Why use Todd Walker, when you have a better options? Murton is a good candidate for the 2 hole (much better than the slow Todd Walker), but I'd say the best option is Cedeno. Everybody keeps putting him 8th. in the lineup, and I think that's a big mistake. While he's not a stolen base threat (yet), he has a better chance to beat out a double play (with Pierre at 1st) than Walker--who hits a lot of ground balls. Cedeno can eventually be a 15-25 SB guy. Pierre can give him tips on baserunning. Cedeno can certainly run. So can Murton, but he has a bit more pop, so I would put him 6th. in the lineup where he can drive in more runs. I project Murton will hit between 15-20 homeruns, while Cedeno hits 9-12. Cedeno doesn't square to bunt, and he lays a very good one. I would trust him more on laying a suicide squeeze than Walker, who makes too many mental mistakes.

 

I remember when Cedeno hit 2nd behind Hairston a couple of games in Sept. He sparked the offense and the Cubs won because of his efforts. Dusty didn't take notice and went back into tampering the lineup.

 

Luis Castillo is considered one of the best 2-hitters in the game, and he doesn't have power at all. Why is he good? He advances the runner....he lays a good bunt, he can steal bases. You don't need a guy that hits a lot of doubles or hits 20 hrs batting #2. Some people look too much into SLG % when evaluating a leadoff or 2-hitter. Pierre will provide a lot of intangibles, little things that help the team win, and that counts more than the stuff the stats geeks get all excited about.

[Drew Doughty]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

[CubsFanSince1978]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

[treebird]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

cedeno should have a .350 obp? what?

[Mark Priors Calves]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

cedeno should have a .350 obp? what?

 

I'd be ectastic if Cedeno puts up a .350 OBP. While Murton was very good during his rookie season in '05, I don't think he should be expected to match or surpass a .350 OBP either. This offensive is shaky as is, if Murton and/or Cedeno aren't at least adequate, the Cubs will struggle tremendously.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno's OBP either, although, by the same token, I am not laboring under some Kool-Aid induced halluciantions either.

 

Zips......

 

Name         P    AVG   OBP   SLG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB   K SB CS 
Cedeno       ss  .287  .332  .412 113 345  46  99 15  2  8  40  20  63 13  4

[RockTheIvy]

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno's OBP either, although, by the same token, I am not laboring under some Kool-Aid induced halluciantions either.

 

Zips......

 

Name         P    AVG   OBP   SLG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB   K SB CS 
Cedeno       ss  .287  .332  .412 113 345  46  99 15  2  8  40  20  63 13  4

 

Hey Fred, do you have Furcal's Zips by chance? If Cedeno puts up those numbers, I'd be thrilled.

[imb]

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno's OBP either, although, by the same token, I am not laboring under some Kool-Aid induced halluciantions either.

 

Zips......

 

Name         P    AVG   OBP   SLG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB   K SB CS 
Cedeno       ss  .287  .332  .412 113 345  46  99 15  2  8  40  20  63 13  4

 

Hey Fred, do you have Furcal's Zips by chance? If Cedeno puts up those numbers, I'd be thrilled.

 

Furcal's Zips is just slightly higher, I remember looking at it when they came out.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno's OBP either, although, by the same token, I am not laboring under some Kool-Aid induced halluciantions either.

 

Zips......

 

Name         P    AVG   OBP   SLG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB   K SB CS 
Cedeno       ss  .287  .332  .412 113 345  46  99 15  2  8  40  20  63 13  4

 

Hey Fred, do you have Furcal's Zips by chance? If Cedeno puts up those numbers, I'd be thrilled.

 

No, I never copied the Braves numbers because I didn't realize that the links would "go away" after a couple of weeks.

[TB_11]

I see them as "small ball" or "smart ball" players. Dusty can now work with a good 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have the excuse of a slow "baseclogger." Why use Todd Walker, when you have a better options? Murton is a good candidate for the 2 hole (much better than the slow Todd Walker), but I'd say the best option is Cedeno.

 

I'd be surprised if Dusty puts Cedeno and Murton 1-2 with the Juan Pierre signing.

 

Todd Walker has proved that he can get on base at a decent clip throughout his career, while Murton and Cedeno have gotten only a smattering of PAs. Give me Walker at the 2-spot over Murton or Cedeno or Murton for the time being.

 

That being said I'd love to see all three in the lineup.

[UK1679666180]

Cedeno as a SS will likely have more value than Murton as a LF'er. I'd still like to see if Murton can cont. to hit for similar power as he did in '05.

[anemic offense]

I see them as "small ball" or "smart ball" players. Dusty can now work with a good 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have the excuse of a slow "baseclogger." Why use Todd Walker, when you have a better options? Murton is a good candidate for the 2 hole (much better than the slow Todd Walker), but I'd say the best option is Cedeno.

 

I'd be surprised if Dusty puts Cedeno and Murton 1-2 with the Juan Pierre signing.

 

Todd Walker has proved that he can get on base at a decent clip throughout his career, while Murton and Cedeno have gotten only a smattering of PAs. Give me Walker at the 2-spot over Murton or Cedeno or Murton for the time being.

 

That being said I'd love to see all three in the lineup.

 

The one thing peopel seem to conveniently forget around here is Walker's lack of speed. This doesn't just hurt on the basepaths, but on DP balls as well. I know the stathounds will chime in and say "you can't possibly tabulate all those runs", but the extra 1st to thirds, SBs, scoring from 1st or 2nds, fewer DPs, scoring from third on balls in play HAVE to count for something. I concede it can't be tabulated, but I don't think its too far fethced to say Murton or Cedeno could net at least 30 extra bases from such opportunities. While not trying to take away from Todd, this does somewhat narrow the discrency in OBP.

 

There are just so many things to take into account in baseball that stats can't even quantify. It's up to fans like us to try to disseminate the difference, and that can be tricky, at best.

[UK1679666180]

Any speed advantage Cedeno and Murton have over Walker hitting 2nd is likely made up by Walker and his ability to hit it past the 1B/2B who is holding the runner on at 1B.

[BigbadB]

Any speed advantage Cedeno and Murton have over Walker hitting 2nd is likely made up by Walker and his ability to hit it past the 1B/2B who is holding the runner on at 1B.

 

Walker also distracts the view of the catcher more than a righty hitter. If Pierre plans on taking off 70+ times, we need the extra distractions. I wonder what Pierre's SB success rates were with Castillo hitting right or left handed?

 

I wouldn't mind Cedeno or Murton getting a 2 hole start against a left handed pitcher, but Walker is a proven commodity to put up respectable OBP at the top of the order.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Why does Murton get a higher rating than Cedeno from the mayority?

 

They're just about equals in my book right now. What advantages Murton has offensively are balanced by the advantages Cedeno brings defensively. Ultimately, I think either would be a terrific #2 hitter, but if Walker's on the team, I'd rather have him there until either can prove more capable.

 

PS - forget a 380 OBP, I'd be ecstatic if Ronny goes 340.

[goonys evil twin]

Why does Murton get a higher rating than Cedeno from the mayority?

 

They're just about equals in my book right now. What advantages Murton has offensively are balanced by the advantages Cedeno brings defensively.

 

Murton gets a higher rating when talking about the lineup. He's the better hitter. When thinking about the order, Murton gets a higher billing. When talking about overall value as a player though, the position comes into play, and Cedeno gets a bounce there. Neither player is likely to be great, for his position or otherwise. Both should be perfectly acceptable for their position, age and cost, though.

[CuseCubFan69]

Why does Murton get a higher rating than Cedeno from the mayority?

 

They're just about equals in my book right now. What advantages Murton has offensively are balanced by the advantages Cedeno brings defensively.

 

Murton gets a higher rating when talking about the lineup. He's the better hitter. When thinking about the order, Murton gets a higher billing. When talking about overall value as a player though, the position comes into play, and Cedeno gets a bounce there. Neither player is likely to be great, for his position or otherwise. Both should be perfectly acceptable for their position, age and cost, though.

 

I think the second Cedeno struggles he'll be on the bench learning how to hit from Perez.

 

Cedeno, if he gets to struggle and battle his way out of a slump, will hit 260/310 and since Baker is the manager IMO he will see that and put the gold glover Perez in instead. I think he'll be a decent SS but will he actually be good enough to put up better numbers than Perez? Is a 290/300-340/350 really in his future and what SS's is he equivalent too? I really don't see him as fast but he seems to have a good arm and range.

[Dr. Cub]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I think if you're expecting an OBP in the range you mentioned; you're going to be disappointed at seasons end.

[wastra]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I think if you're expecting an OBP in the range you mentioned; you're going to be disappointed at seasons end.

 

That would pretty much make him one of the top 7-10 Shortstops in the game, wouldn't it? I thinks that's INCREDIBLY unrealistic, fwiw.

[Dr. Cub]

I don't think many of us look at SLG at all when evaluating lead-off/2 hole hitters. Some may use it as a tie-breaker if two players are close, but most of us use OBP as the metric to judge top of the lineup guys.

 

Speed, Power, Bunting (not as much) are all pluses (minuses?) if there's a tie-breaker. Murton put up a higher OBP in the time he got. Then after looking at other stats (SLG and BA more specifically) Murton had the clear advantage over Cedeno.

 

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

 

I think if you're expecting an OBP in the range you mentioned; you're going to be disappointed at seasons end.

 

That would pretty much make him one of the top 7-10 Shortstops in the game, wouldn't it? I thinks that's INCREDIBLY unrealistic, fwiw.

 

Let's put it this way; there were 6 SS in all of the major leagues last year that sported a .350 OBP or better. Jeter was tops with a .389 OBP.

[UK1679666180]

I think .270-.280/.325-.340 is the likely range.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

355/403/518/921

 

Wait, that's what he did at Iowa last year. Not happening, but how nice would it be to see those numbers in the show over the course of 150+ games in '06?

http://www.jamous.com.br/weblog/homer%20drool.JPG

[TheRaven]

I think, if anything, we can take away from this conversation that Ronnie will indeed hit .400 this season.

[CubDad4Ever]

UK , again i find myself agreeing with your Cedeno assessment , i hope were right. He would carry more value because of his defensive integrity as the most critical position in the defensive spectrum. Murton would have to be very strong on O to carry more value. God Bless and i think they will both do alright . Coach L

[TB_11]

I see them as "small ball" or "smart ball" players. Dusty can now work with a good 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have the excuse of a slow "baseclogger." Why use Todd Walker, when you have a better options? Murton is a good candidate for the 2 hole (much better than the slow Todd Walker), but I'd say the best option is Cedeno.

 

I'd be surprised if Dusty puts Cedeno and Murton 1-2 with the Juan Pierre signing.

 

Todd Walker has proved that he can get on base at a decent clip throughout his career, while Murton and Cedeno have gotten only a smattering of PAs. Give me Walker at the 2-spot over Murton or Cedeno or Murton for the time being.

 

That being said I'd love to see all three in the lineup.

 

The one thing peopel seem to conveniently forget around here is Walker's lack of speed. This doesn't just hurt on the basepaths, but on DP balls as well. I know the stathounds will chime in and say "you can't possibly tabulate all those runs", but the extra 1st to thirds, SBs, scoring from 1st or 2nds, fewer DPs, scoring from third on balls in play HAVE to count for something. I concede it can't be tabulated, but I don't think its too far fethced to say Murton or Cedeno could net at least 30 extra bases from such opportunities. While not trying to take away from Todd, this does somewhat narrow the discrency in OBP.

 

There are just so many things to take into account in baseball that stats can't even quantify. It's up to fans like us to try to disseminate the difference, and that can be tricky, at best.

 

Would those presumed extra bases compensate for the lower OBP you would get with whoever would replace Walker?