Fox Sports grades Cub off-season a D / SI gives them B

[Bgbird68]

Goony's evil twin, Im asking you who these guys are, if their is someone who was a better option than Neifi i would like to no.

 

Rob Macowiak

[BigbadB]

D'Angelo Jimenez

[CubfaninCA]

The decline in the quality of our starting pitching is the biggest reason for the falloff from 03 to 04 to 05. All you need do is go back to 03 and look at the numbers for Prior, Wood, Zambrano and Clement. Makes all the difference in the world.

 

As for the offense, the 03 team stank pretty much, this year's bunch is better balanced and no worse than that year. And the bullpen is certainly deeper.

 

The decline of the team is due mostly to the pitching, but what is important to remember is that the team wasn't that good back then anyway. And the recent they weren't that good was because hitting held them back. Even with a top pitching staff each year they only accumulated the 4th and 6th highest win totals in the league. All of their success was due to pitching, even as limited as the success was. As unimpressive as that 2003 lineup was, it holds up against the current group. The 2003 OF was much much better than what the OF is right now. And they finished 9th in runs scored, just like the 2005 version, and probably close to what the 2006 version will be.

So basically we're counting on a return to glory for the pitching staff, and even then the team is at the mercy of the competence of the competition, because 88/89 wins is no guarantee for anything.

 

So being 1 game away from the World Series = not that good?

Can you ever give this organization any credit?? That club was real good after the additions of Lofton & Ramirez.

 

88 win regular seasons aren't really good. If you want to settle for 88 win seasons, feel free, but don't push that crap off to me and call it really good.

 

When this organization does what it should I will give them credit, thus far they have not.

 

Classic.

 

Figured people would disregard how well the team performed after the additions of Lofton & Ramirez. It was a .500 prior to them.

 

Anything to keep from giving Hendry credit, I guess....

[CuseCubFan69]

In LA's, count the number of everyday position players they have that have come from their system. It's not a very big number. They had Izturis, and before that, who? LoDuca? Piazza? It's not as if LA's a factory of productive young players the way Atlanta does.

Wasn't Izturis really a product of Toronto's system. I seem to recall the Dodgers trading for Izturis. I could be wrong.

 

-Banghart

 

Yes he was.

[Magnetic Curses]

Figured people would disregard how well the team performed after the additions of Lofton & Ramirez. It was a .500 prior to them.

 

Anything to keep from giving Hendry credit, I guess....

 

okay, so hendry sucks when he's not acquiring former pirates 2 1/2 years ago.

[goonys evil twin]

The decline in the quality of our starting pitching is the biggest reason for the falloff from 03 to 04 to 05. All you need do is go back to 03 and look at the numbers for Prior, Wood, Zambrano and Clement. Makes all the difference in the world.

 

As for the offense, the 03 team stank pretty much, this year's bunch is better balanced and no worse than that year. And the bullpen is certainly deeper.

 

The decline of the team is due mostly to the pitching, but what is important to remember is that the team wasn't that good back then anyway. And the recent they weren't that good was because hitting held them back. Even with a top pitching staff each year they only accumulated the 4th and 6th highest win totals in the league. All of their success was due to pitching, even as limited as the success was. As unimpressive as that 2003 lineup was, it holds up against the current group. The 2003 OF was much much better than what the OF is right now. And they finished 9th in runs scored, just like the 2005 version, and probably close to what the 2006 version will be.

So basically we're counting on a return to glory for the pitching staff, and even then the team is at the mercy of the competence of the competition, because 88/89 wins is no guarantee for anything.

 

So being 1 game away from the World Series = not that good?

Can you ever give this organization any credit?? That club was real good after the additions of Lofton & Ramirez.

 

88 win regular seasons aren't really good. If you want to settle for 88 win seasons, feel free, but don't push that crap off to me and call it really good.

 

When this organization does what it should I will give them credit, thus far they have not.

 

Classic.

 

Figured people would disregard how well the team performed after the additions of Lofton & Ramirez. It was a .500 prior to them.

 

Anything to keep from giving Hendry credit, I guess....

 

Man, you really got it out for me don't you.

 

Big picture my friend. I don't care about their record over 50 games 3 years ago. Hendry has done a poor job overall.

[nick23]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

[goonys evil twin]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

[nick23]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

[Magnetic Curses]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

[nick23]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

[Dr. Cub]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

 

The two of them together build crazy, beautiful dynasties.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

 

It's not an either/or proposition. He has the pitching, and it's been pretty cheap the last few years. Considering that and the payroll he's been given, he should be able to put up a much better team OBP-wise and therefore offensively.

[Ram1380]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't be nearly as hard keeping those pitchers healthy if he didn't hire a known arm abusing buffoon for the dugout, that also is on Hendry.

[goonys evil twin]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

 

You can take the dominant pitching, but maybe since pitching is so fragile, it's not that wise. Regardless, building a one dimensional team is stupid. And if you are building a team based on dominant pitching, you'd be nuts to sign an aging Greg Maddux, and guys like Estes, Rusch, Howry and Eyre. If you want dominant pitching, get dominant pitchers, not a bunch of wild throwers, mediore or worse starters and middle relievers.

[nick23]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

 

It's not an either/or proposition. He has the pitching, and it's been pretty cheap the last few years. Considering that and the payroll he's been given, he should be able to put up a much better team OBP-wise and therefore offensively.

 

Besides the non signing of Giles this year, what more could he have really done OBP wise? Going into last last year we were very strong OBP wise in the infield. We had Patterson in center, we had the whole Sosa situation in right and you had Holla and Dubios in left. What position should he have added OBP too? Now this year, yes Giles would have been perfect in right, but who knows if he was ever leaving SD? We can all come up with a thousand trades Hendry should've made, but none of us know for sure what went on behind closed doors. We're still strong OBP wise on the infield, and he's added a ton of OBP to the CF position. Yes we're weak in right but we're above average in left. We have the potential to be above average as a team in OBP, plus we have the pitching to carry us all the way to the WS.

[nick23]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

 

You can take the dominant pitching, but maybe since pitching is so fragile, it's not that wise. Regardless, building a one dimensional team is stupid. And if you are building a team based on dominant pitching, you'd be nuts to sign an aging Greg Maddux, and guys like Estes, Rusch, Howry and Eyre. If you want dominant pitching, get dominant pitchers, not a bunch of wild throwers, mediore or worse starters and middle relievers.

 

It's interesting you think we don't have dominant pitchers since we've led the world in strikeouts the last 4 years. Plus we're hardly one dimensional since we we're second in the league in batting average last year. And if Nomar doesn't go down and Corey doesn't tank we'd have been in the top half of the league in runs scored.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's interesting you think we don't have dominant pitchers since we've led the world in strikeouts the last 4 years. Plus we're hardly one dimensional since we we're second in the league in batting average last year. And if Nomar doesn't go down and Corey doesn't tank we'd have been in the top half of the league in runs scored.

 

Read that part again -- we were 2nd in AVG with Nomar down and Corey tanking, and we were not in the top half in runs scored. Pathetic.

[goonys evil twin]

Going into last last year we were very strong OBP wise in the infield.

 

Oh my lord. The Cubs have been weak OBP wise for years. It doesn't matter if they get it from certain parts of the lineup, overall they are weak, they have been weak, and they will continue to be weak as long as they keep ignoring the value of the walk.

[goonys evil twin]

It's interesting you think we don't have dominant pitchers since we've led the world in strikeouts the last 4 years. Plus we're hardly one dimensional since we we're second in the league in batting average last year. And if Nomar doesn't go down and Corey doesn't tank we'd have been in the top half of the league in runs scored.

 

Hendry's style has been one dimensional in that he's stressed pitching over and above everything else. Pitchers have been drafted all the time, to the point where there hasn't been enough room for the guys. The position players have been baren. Leading the league in K's is nice, but when it's accompanied by high walk rates as well, it's hardly dominating. Besides, I never said "we don't have dominant pitchers". That's just poor comprehension on your part. What I said was if your strategy is to dominate with pitching, you shouldn't poor so many resources into guys like Maddux, Estes, Rusch, Eyre, Howry, Alfonseca and the rest of the mediocrity brigade. If you want to dominate with pitching, get dominant pitchers, not just a couple. But what you should do, is create a top 5 run prevention team and a top 5 run scoring team, which will be a great team. If you settle on so many so-so arms, like Hendry has done, then get a great lineup. If you settle for a mediocre lineup, as Hendry has done, then get a great pitching staff. Instead, Hendry has put all the Cubs hope on a fragile and inconsistent pitching staff, without acquiring any solid reinforcements yet this offseason, and he's maintained the status quo of mediocrity/below average offense.

[nick23]

It's interesting you think we don't have dominant pitchers since we've led the world in strikeouts the last 4 years. Plus we're hardly one dimensional since we we're second in the league in batting average last year. And if Nomar doesn't go down and Corey doesn't tank we'd have been in the top half of the league in runs scored.

 

Hendry's style has been one dimensional in that he's stressed pitching over and above everything else. Pitchers have been drafted all the time, to the point where there hasn't been enough room for the guys. The position players have been baren. Leading the league in K's is nice, but when it's accompanied by high walk rates as well, it's hardly dominating. Besides, I never said "we don't have dominant pitchers". That's just poor comprehension on your part. What I said was if your strategy is to dominate with pitching, you shouldn't poor so many resources into guys like Maddux, Estes, Rusch, Eyre, Howry, Alfonseca and the rest of the mediocrity brigade. If you want to dominate with pitching, get dominant pitchers, not just a couple. But what you should do, is create a top 5 run prevention team and a top 5 run scoring team, which will be a great team. If you settle on so many so-so arms, like Hendry has done, then get a great lineup. If you settle for a mediocre lineup, as Hendry has done, then get a great pitching staff. Instead, Hendry has put all the Cubs hope on a fragile and inconsistent pitching staff, without acquiring any solid reinforcements yet this offseason, and he's maintained the status quo of mediocrity/below average offense.

 

Your right, every pitcher on the staff should be completely dominant, and every hitter on the team should have a high OBP. Why didn't Hendry think of this? By the way, the Cardinals were the only team in the NL last season to be top 5 in pitching and top 5 in OBP. So either every other GM in the NL is incompetent or it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be. But I do think you're on to something with this idea of everyone on the roster being dominant players.

[YearofDaCubs]

The big picture for me is, Hendry did a good job in 03 and 04. 2005 was a disaster, partly becasue of Hendry, partly because of injuries. 2006 is yet to be determined. If the pitching stays healthy this year were good enough to win a WS imo.

 

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons.

 

Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

 

It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault.

 

well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching.

 

I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP.

Not if it can't stay healthy.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Your right, every pitcher on the staff should be completely dominant, and every hitter on the team should have a high OBP. Why didn't Hendry think of this? By the way, the Cardinals were the only team in the NL last season to be top 5 in pitching and top 5 in OBP. So either every other GM in the NL is incompetent or it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be. But I do think you're on to something with this idea of everyone on the roster being dominant players.

 

You are correct that it's easier said than done, but Hendry has been in a perfect position to make it happen. The pitching has been there, all he needed to do was spend a ton of money wisely this offseason. Most other GM's are not in a position where they are easily able to upgrade to get in the top 5 of both.

[wastra]

Your right, every pitcher on the staff should be completely dominant, and every hitter on the team should have a high OBP. Why didn't Hendry think of this? By the way, the Cardinals were the only team in the NL last season to be top 5 in pitching and top 5 in OBP. So either every other GM in the NL is incompetent or it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be. But I do think you're on to something with this idea of everyone on the roster being dominant players.

 

 

 

It's not as if he's putting all his eggs in the pitching basket and doesn't have the RESOURCES to get a good lineup, too, though. Hendry is spending lots of money on mediocre guys who can't get on base INSTEAD of spending the same amount of money on guys who can do so at a better clip.

 

He doesn't get a pass for not fielding a good rotation AND a good lineup because he's had the resources to do just that- yet he's failed miserably to do so. With the top payroll in the NL, or even top 3, there's no excuse for not being well above average in pitching AND offense. We might not be #1, but 3 years or so of ranking around 7-10 in offense is ridiculous with the salary and payroll he's working with- commitments to pitchers' salaries not withstanding.

[goonys evil twin]

Your right, every pitcher on the staff should be completely dominant, and every hitter on the team should have a high OBP. Why didn't Hendry think of this? By the way, the Cardinals were the only team in the NL last season to be top 5 in pitching and top 5 in OBP. So either every other GM in the NL is incompetent or it's not quite as easy as you make it out to be. But I do think you're on to something with this idea of everyone on the roster being dominant players.

 

That's weird, I never said everybody should be dominant, but again, you fail to comprehend the words I wrote. Or you purposefully changed them to make me look stupid or something, but I doubt that.

 

Everybody doesn't have to have a high OBP, but the overall team should. Saying the OBP is fine because the infield has a high OBP doesn't hold water. It's the entire team that matters, the whole lineup. 1, or 2, or 3 guys with solid numbers can't negate the rest of the squad. And the point about non-dominant pitchers is that if your goal is to dominate with pitching, you shouldn't waste millions upon millions on mediocre or bad pitchers, as Hendry has done the past few years. Teams with a great lineup that are just looking for innings eaters can justify spending a little extra on mediocre pitchers, because they don't need dominance. But teams with average to below average lineups can't afford to waste time and money on several guys with 4+ ERAs and no semblance of an ability to dominate.