Changing the Culture of Baseball in Chicago

[Laura]

The Trib[/url]"] And on the subject of the Cubs, Williams believes wrapping up his starters for several years will give the White Sox a chance at what he called "sustained success" and the possibility of overturning Chicago's longtime baseball "culture."

 

"The defeatist attitude that we always will be Chicago's second team just doesn't fly with me," Williams said, "and we all accept the challenge that we must win again and probably again after that to change the culture.

 

"More winning will result in the changing of that culture. I hope I'm right, because if not I'm going to have a lot of answering to do."

 

Mariotti in the Sun-Times[/url]"]

Still, knowing Williams and his thirst for action, can any deal be dismissed? In his latest conference call, he said the Sox organization not only aches to win another Series but smells a chance to make another dramatic dent in the local market share of the Cubs, who haven't responded well this offseason to the South Side uprising. ...

 

No Ken doll, Williams is out to conquer Chicago, conquer baseball and conquer the world. Don't put it past him.

 

"I not only wanted to win the World Series, but I wanted to have sustained success. The defeatist attitude that we'll always be Chicago's second team doesn't fly with me,'' he said. "We must win again and then possibly win again after that to change the culture. Jerry has taken on a huge financial gamble to try to win it again. I'm hoping I'm right or someone will have a lot of answering to do -- and that someone will be me.''

 

KW's quotes were getting a lot of play on the Score earlier -- the thrust being that the White Sox are poised to take over Chicago's fan base.

 

Winning does help popularity.

[UK1679666180]

It won't happen, this is still a Cubs town. The bandwagon aspect will fall off.

 

I've always viewed Chicago as a 2-1 ratio of Cubs fan to Sox fan, I think the Sox brought in more of the passive fans that really didn't follow either team before the great year the Sox had.

 

The dynamics of Chicago baseball really hasn't changed. Regardless, of how sports writers try to portray it.

 

Most fans in general are fairweather, Chicago has a boatload on either side of town and in all sports.

[Laura]

I've always viewed Chicago as a 2-1 ratio of Cubs fan to Sox fan, I think the Sox brought in more of the passive fans that really didn't follow either team before the great year the Sox had.

 

The dynamics of Chicago baseball really hasn't changed. Regardless, of how sports writers try to portray it.

 

It's an interesting discussion.

 

I'd agree on the passive aspect. It took awhile for anyone to show up, long-time fans or casual.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

[FergieJ31]

"The defeatist attitude that we always will be Chicago's second team just doesn't fly with me," Williams said, "and we all accept the challenges that we must win again and probably again after that to change the culture. " - KW

 

That one quote speaks volumes. Even after winning the WS -- the ultimate prize to literally EVERY other team in MLB -- the White Sox seem as status-conscious as ever.

 

If I were Kenny I'd pay homage to true Sox fans all winter long, and take a cool "Cubs? Pfft, we don't care, they're in the NL" stance in front of reporters.

 

But no, we get quotes like the above. Wow.

[brfahey]

Williams' quotes prove once and for all that the White Sox are the Jan Brady of MLB. For Jan it was always, "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia." For the White Sox, it is always "Cubs, Cubs, Cubs." Even a WS title has not changed that. They have this us against them mentality when that is not the case at all.

 

They bitch about media coverage and favoritism toward the Cubs and the local media, particularly the sports radio portion, is almost uniformly pro-White Sox. Just look at the transformation Reinsdorf went through when they won. He went from being a money-conscious SOB whose hatred of unions led to the World Series being cancelled to a tearful guy who "deserved" the title. Give me a break.

 

They will ride this crest for awhile, until the inevitable pitching injuries, one run losses and changed luck arrives next year. Then it will be back to 15,000 per night and Hawkeroo blaming Mariotti for everything.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

 

I agree, but it can be done. Did you know the Sox outdrew the Cubs thru the 1950-1970 and was pretty close attendence wise until this decade? TV was a big hurdle but WGN carries Sox games now. Chicago was more of a Sox town before and it can be that again.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

 

I agree, but it can be done. Did you know the Sox outdrew the Cubs in the 1950-1970 and was pretty close attendence wise until this decade? TV was a big hurdle but WGN carries Sox games now. Chicago was more of a Sox town before and it can be that again.

 

The White Sox have what, 15 games on WGN? They're going to get more ESPN games than WGN games. I know that the roles were reversed before, but it's a different time now, and much more difficult to earn back those fans. I have a hard time seeing the White Sox putting together the type of winning run that it would take to overcome the respective ballparks, the TV advantage, and still be more successful than the Cubs to win fans back.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm not sure of how many they have but the White Sox have way more than 15 games on WGN. Probably close to 50-60.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

 

I agree, but it can be done. Did you know the Sox outdrew the Cubs in the 1950-1970 and was pretty close attendence wise until this decade? TV was a big hurdle but WGN carries Sox games now. Chicago was more of a Sox town before and it can be that again.

 

The White Sox have what, 15 games on WGN? They're going to get more ESPN games than WGN games. I know that the roles were reversed before, but it's a different time now, and much more difficult to earn back those fans. I have a hard time seeing the White Sox putting together the type of winning run that it would take to overcome the respective ballparks, the TV advantage, and still be more successful than the Cubs to win fans back.

 

I don't know how many games WGN carries so you got me there. I suspect the Sox are looking at what's going on in LA and are trying to do the same. If I would have told you 10 years ago someday LA would be on the verge of becoming an Angel town I bet you would have called me crazy. Let's face it, winning the WS changes things. I think if the Sox continue to compete and the Cubs keep hovering around .500 for the next 5 years things could really change.

 

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'm not sure of how many they have but the White Sox have way more than 15 games on WGN. Probably close to 50-60.

 

You're right, my mistake.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Which means pretty much nothing.

[sethuel1]

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Lincoln Park = trendy to the max

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Lincoln Park = trendy to the max

 

Hahaha no question, but the Sox seeds have been planted.

[sethuel1]

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Lincoln Park = trendy to the max

 

Hahaha no question, but the Sox seeds have been planted.

 

Not really. We're talking about Trixies and Chads here. They probably don't even remember who the logo on the hat represents anymore. Especially after, like, their fourth, like, Red Bull and vodka.

[Andy]

 

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Which means pretty much nothing.

I've seen more Sox hats lately too. Doesn't mean anything except for that the bandwagoneers are celebrating. I saw a lot of Red Sox hats after 2004 too, and now I see almost none.

 

(Granted I live in South Bend and not Chicago...)

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Another thing, I live about a mile south of Wrigley and I see more Sox hats now than I do Cub hats.

 

Lincoln Park = trendy to the max

 

Hahaha no question, but the Sox seeds have been planted.

 

Not really. We're talking about Trixies and Chads here. They probably don't even remember who the logo on the hat represents anymore. Especially after, like, their fourth, like, Red Bull and vodka.

 

Aren't those the type fans we are talking about here? Sure, maybe the Sox have picked up more "hardcore" fans but in reality it's the casual baseball fans money the Sox are after. Lets face it if the Cubs lost 120 games and the Sox won another WS next year you'd still be a diehard Cubs fan.

Edited December 30, 2005 by CardsFanInChiTown

[UK1679666180]

Buying a hat or a WS shirt is different than actually deciding to take the family to the ballgame or turning it on in the 6th inning to get the score and decide, if you're going to watch it or hope for a reality show to come on.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Buying a hat or a WS shirt is different than actually deciding to take the family to the ballgame or turning it on in the 6th inning to get the score and decide, if you're going to watch it or hope for a reality show to come on.

 

I think the person who buys a WS shirt is more likely to go to a Sox game or watch them on TV.

[UK1679666180]

Buying a hat or a WS shirt is different than actually deciding to take the family to the ballgame or turning it on in the 6th inning to get the score and decide, if you're going to watch it or hope for a reality show to come on.

 

I think the person who buys a WS shirt is more likely to go to a Sox game or watch them on TV.

 

Why is that trip to Walgreens more difficult than a Citgo? :)

[RockTheIvy]

They have the DH, aka the fifth horseman.

[CubRock2]

I wrote about this before (duing the WS fallout). I'm a teacher, and though kids are fickle and fairweather by nature, about 75% of my kids (West Suburbs) are showing great, great interest in the Sox. I printed off 100 Cubs and 100 Sox Skeds, and the Sox are nearly gone, while I can't give away the Cubs skeds. In fact, I do. :wink:

 

The idea of changing the culture can't happen in the next two or three years, but over the next 10 or so. If the White Sox want that to happen, then they'll have to keep winning, which isn't unreasonable considering their off season. And with the Cubs propensity to be drama queens and wimp out by August, they won't have much competition earning the adoration of young kids - future customers to baseball organizations.

 

I can see how the Sox constantly feel like a step kid in this town. The Trib runs tons of Cubs stuff, and though the Score and SunTimes are heavily White Sox focused, nobody takes them seriously. The Sox even got hosed on the SI cover. ESPN didn't even mention them as Sportsmen of the Year, let alone the "Top 10 stories fo the year." All that is lost publicity, which is lost revenue. Until the National Media and the "culture" considers the Sox on even keel witht the Cubs, they'll be unhappy. They'll lose out on tourist dollars and even local dollars. Until they can have some appeal, they'll continue to bitch and moan about being "second class."

[BigbadB]

I wrote about this before (duing the WS fallout). I'm a teacher, and though kids are fickle and fairweather by nature, about 75% of my kids (West Suburbs) are showing great, great interest in the Sox. I printed off 100 Cubs and 100 Sox Skeds, and the Sox are nearly gone, while I can't give away the Cubs skeds. In fact, I do. :wink:

 

The idea of changing the culture can't happen in the next two or three years, but over the next 10 or so. If the White Sox want that to happen, then they'll have to keep winning, which isn't unreasonable considering their off season. And with the Cubs propensity to be drama queens and wimp out by August, they won't have much competition earning the adoration of young kids - future customers to baseball organizations.

 

I can see how the Sox constantly feel like a step kid in this town. The Trib runs tons of Cubs stuff, and though the Score and SunTimes are heavily White Sox focused, nobody takes them seriously. The Sox even got hosed on the SI cover. ESPN didn't even mention them as Sportsmen of the Year, let alone the "Top 10 stories fo the year." All that is lost publicity, which is lost revenue. Until the National Media and the "culture" considers the Sox on even keel witht the Cubs, they'll be unhappy. They'll lose out on tourist dollars and even local dollars. Until they can have some appeal, they'll continue to bitch and moan about being "second class."

 

Good post! The really hardcore fan won't change allegiance, but there are millions of casual fans that could be swayed one way or another. Winning is a good way to generate interest and excitement.

[sethuel1]

I wrote about this before (duing the WS fallout). I'm a teacher, and though kids are fickle and fairweather by nature, about 75% of my kids (West Suburbs) are showing great, great interest in the Sox. I printed off 100 Cubs and 100 Sox Skeds, and the Sox are nearly gone, while I can't give away the Cubs skeds. In fact, I do. :wink:

 

The idea of changing the culture can't happen in the next two or three years, but over the next 10 or so. If the White Sox want that to happen, then they'll have to keep winning, which isn't unreasonable considering their off season. And with the Cubs propensity to be drama queens and wimp out by August, they won't have much competition earning the adoration of young kids - future customers to baseball organizations.

 

I can see how the Sox constantly feel like a step kid in this town. The Trib runs tons of Cubs stuff, and though the Score and SunTimes are heavily White Sox focused, nobody takes them seriously. The Sox even got hosed on the SI cover. ESPN didn't even mention them as Sportsmen of the Year, let alone the "Top 10 stories fo the year." All that is lost publicity, which is lost revenue. Until the National Media and the "culture" considers the Sox on even keel witht the Cubs, they'll be unhappy. They'll lose out on tourist dollars and even local dollars. Until they can have some appeal, they'll continue to bitch and moan about being "second class."

 

Good post! The really hardcore fan won't change allegiance, but there are millions of casual fans that could be swayed one way or another. Winning is a good way to generate interest and excitement.

 

How about consistent mediocrity along with ticket price hikes?

[The Voice of Reason]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

 

I agree, but it can be done. Did you know the Sox outdrew the Cubs thru the 1950-1970 and was pretty close attendence wise until this decade? TV was a big hurdle but WGN carries Sox games now. Chicago was more of a Sox town before and it can be that again.

 

 

The 1950 - 1970 period you quote was pre-gentrification of Lincoln Park and Wrigleyville and before the Yuppie invasion of the 80's. Back then, Comiskey Park/Bridgeport was considered a safer destination than Wrigleyille. It wasn't considered "cool" to go to Wrigley then and most of the fans that showed up were knowledgeable baseball fans - unlike now.

 

That said, in the Suburbs, a lot of kids wearing Cubs hats last year are wearing Sox hats this year. A sustained run by the Sox will make a dent into the Cubs fans base.