Zambrano v. Prior

[T313]

Carlos has the most potential greatness of any player in MLB. Harnessing it to the point of easily winning 20 games a year is something the Cubs may never see. Hard to explain about the intangibles, but would'nt hesitate to say he would win Cy Young awards with proper coaching and solid team play. Cripes at times he was the offensive star in the games he pitched. Many games he threw an extra 30 pitches due to shoddy defense behind. Prior is a different story. In 03 he looked like he could cruise through many starts with pinpoint control, could spot the ball where he needed to. Have not seen that in past two years very often. He has had injuries, just not as sure that we will see that Mark Prior again, for whatever reason it's not as simple for him anymore. I believe I would take my chances with the future of Z depending on how good of conditioning (weight) he will maintain for the next ten years.

[FergieJ31]

Card fans would obviously pick Zambrano since they've seen him a lot more... and they've seen him throw his nasty stuff..

 

Over the past three years Z has almost completely shut down the Cards, but only has a 4-3 record to show for it. In 11 starts, his BAA vs Stl is .205, WHIP = 1.02, 69 K's in 85 IP ... but only 4-3, that's just criminal.

 

I was at wrigley in mid 04 when Z got tossed for plucking Edmonds twice. It was the single most exciting game I've ever been to.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=240719116

 

I love this rivalry.

 

I was there, with my best friend. A Cardinals fan.

 

I was at the Cubs-Cards game the next day, which was easily one of the most excruciating Cub losses I've seen. Cards came back from a 6-run deficit, Hawkins served up a ninth inning 2-run HR to Pujols, then another to Sanders. :shock: Then he blew his stack at the ump and got ejected. Pujols was 5-5 with 3 HR's, a double and 5 RBI's.

 

I was with a Cards fan friend of mine and told him "I think your boys just got some revenge for that 5-game series here in Sept '03".

 

(that said, I love this rivalry too)

[SeldomSeen]

Carlos has the most potential greatness of any player in MLB. Harnessing it to the point of easily winning 20 games a year is something the Cubs may never see. Hard to explain about the intangibles, but would'nt hesitate to say he would win Cy Young awards with proper coaching and solid team play. Cripes at times he was the offensive star in the games he pitched. Many games he threw an extra 30 pitches due to shoddy defense behind. Prior is a different story. In 03 he looked like he could cruise through many starts with pinpoint control, could spot the ball where he needed to. Have not seen that in past two years very often. He has had injuries, just not as sure that we will see that Mark Prior again, for whatever reason it's not as simple for him anymore. I believe I would take my chances with the future of Z depending on how good of conditioning (weight) he will maintain for the next ten years.

 

I feel exactly the same way about Prior that you feel about Z. How much do you think that the inconsistency in #s of innings pitched has to do with his lack of control? I'm hoping that he has an incident free spring and comes out smoking from the get-go this year. Barring setbacks, and with a consistent throwing program (no 2B roadblocks or line drives off the elbow), I expect a 2003-like year from him.

 

That being said, I am a huge Z fan, and would love to see him continue to improve as well.

[ltb]

I was at the Cubs-Cards game the next day, which was easily one of the most excruciating Cub losses I've seen. Cards came back from a 6-run deficit, Hawkins served up a ninth inning 2-run HR to Pujols, then another to Sanders. :shock: Then he blew his stack at the ump and got ejected. Pujols was 5-5 with 3 HR's, a double and 5 RBI's.

 

I was with a Cards fan friend of mine and told him "I think your boys just got some revenge for that 5-game series here in Sept '03".

 

(that said, I love this rivalry too)

 

i was at that game. that was the one start prior missed after coming off the DL, so i got to see cy rusch. i went out to my car to find a flat tire after the game, too. what a terrible day. i was very disappointed.

[Magnetic Curses]

Carlos has the most potential greatness of any player in MLB. Harnessing it to the point of easily winning 20 games a year is something the Cubs may never see. Hard to explain about the intangibles, but would'nt hesitate to say he would win Cy Young awards with proper coaching and solid team play. Cripes at times he was the offensive star in the games he pitched. Many games he threw an extra 30 pitches due to shoddy defense behind. Prior is a different story. In 03 he looked like he could cruise through many starts with pinpoint control, could spot the ball where he needed to. Have not seen that in past two years very often. He has had injuries, just not as sure that we will see that Mark Prior again, for whatever reason it's not as simple for him anymore. I believe I would take my chances with the future of Z depending on how good of conditioning (weight) he will maintain for the next ten years.

 

the only thing that has changed for prior is how teams have adjusted to him. his control was just as good in 05 as it was in 03--it's just that the way teams have approached hi9m has changed.

 

instead of swinging the bat early, they've been putting the bat on their shoulders for the first couple of pitches, staying away from any questionable pitch, choking up and slapping at pitches when he's gotten 2 strikes on them. i may be wrong (because i believe that trusting in your own eyes when it comes to a 162-game season is foolish), but it seems to me that players were going up there and actually trying to foul away anything close against him, playing for the walk, extending the pitch count, and trying to get to him in the 5th or 6th inning.

 

now, prior hasn't changed one bit, he's not less accurate nor has he lost any of his stuff, teams have simply said "screw it, we'll just play the field position game with this guy and hope he tires when he hits 100". this is not necessarily a negative on prior, i hjust hope that he's realized that he needs to adapt to the way guys are approaching him. he's going to have to pitch to throw his 2-seamer and changeup for strikes early in games, and he might have to throw some fat ones out there and hope he guesses right. this is where he could really learn something from maddux.

 

he definitely needs to throw more groundballs. zambrano kills him in this area. z is able to go longer into games even with his much higher walk totals because he throws a sinking 2-seamer that is just too heavy to lift. for this one single pitch, i would take z over prior. if mark ever decides that he wants to develop one, he'll have my vote twice on sunday. prior is a power-control-strikeout pitcher that doesn't throw very many groundballs, which is a pitcher that can be gotten to and hammered with patience.

 

i'm hoping that prior adapts, and i bet he will, because his stuff is just too good to waste.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I was at the Cubs-Cards game the next day, which was easily one of the most excruciating Cub losses I've seen. Cards came back from a 6-run deficit, Hawkins served up a ninth inning 2-run HR to Pujols, then another to Sanders. :shock: Then he blew his stack at the ump and got ejected. Pujols was 5-5 with 3 HR's, a double and 5 RBI's.

 

I was with a Cards fan friend of mine and told him "I think your boys just got some revenge for that 5-game series here in Sept '03".

 

(that said, I love this rivalry too)

 

i was at that game. that was the one start prior missed after coming off the DL, so i got to see cy rusch. i went out to my car to find a flat tire after the game, too. what a terrible day. i was very disappointed.

 

 

I remember all my coworkers were rubbing that game in my face until things went all wrong for the Cubs. Satisfying series for me to say the least.

 

:wink:

[Mizzou]

I think it was against Houston in '03 (I think). Dusty left him in to hit when we were down 3-1 (I think) and he hit a 2 run homer to tie it up. Alou hit a homer an inning later and we won :)

 

If it's the same game I'm thinking of (in Houston) we were down 2-1 and his two run homer gave us the lead and eventually the win.

[Magnetic Curses]

I think it was against Houston in '03 (I think). Dusty left him in to hit when we were down 3-1 (I think) and he hit a 2 run homer to tie it up. Alou hit a homer an inning later and we won :)

 

If it's the same game I'm thinking of (in Houston) we were down 2-1 and his two run homer gave us the lead and eventually the win.

 

it was a 3-run homer, i believe.

[Slugger_16]

I think it was against Houston in '03 (I think). Dusty left him in to hit when we were down 3-1 (I think) and he hit a 2 run homer to tie it up. Alou hit a homer an inning later and we won :)

 

If it's the same game I'm thinking of (in Houston) we were down 2-1 and his two run homer gave us the lead and eventually the win.

 

it was a 3-run homer, i believe.

 

No, it was a 2-run homer. He tied it at 3 in the 7th, and then Alou hit a 2-run homer in the 8th, and they won 5-3.

 

I love watching Z hit. It's hilarious when he gets pissed off when he strikes out, and then he looks like he's going to break his bat over his leg.

[Magnetic Curses]

I think it was against Houston in '03 (I think). Dusty left him in to hit when we were down 3-1 (I think) and he hit a 2 run homer to tie it up. Alou hit a homer an inning later and we won :)

 

If it's the same game I'm thinking of (in Houston) we were down 2-1 and his two run homer gave us the lead and eventually the win.

 

it was a 3-run homer, i believe.

 

No, it was a 2-run homer. He tied it at 3 in the 7th, and then Alou hit a 2-run homer in the 8th, and they won 5-3.

 

I love watching Z hit. It's hilarious when he gets pissed off when he strikes out, and then he looks like he's going to break his bat over his leg.

 

i think you're right, now that you mention it.

 

whatever it was, it was the turning point of the season, not that i believe in any of that crap.

[Jon]

Yeah, it was a 2-run homer. Alou's RBI single in the 6th made it a 3-1 game. I remember listening to Z's HR in my car like it was yesterday. What an awesome moment. Hanging 2-out, 0-2 curve that Z crushed to right.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'd take a fully healthy Mark Prior.

 

The only complaint about him is that his curveball has become really inconsistent and like alot of guys who rely on the curveball as their out pitch...its a big reason for his HR problem this year.

 

But I do believe he should have that fixed this year, I full expect a great season from Prior.

[PieOnMyHands]

I don't know. They're both filthy.

 

Before I had Extra Innings last year, I watched a lot of Cubs games. I'd say that if I had to pick, I'd take Zambrano. He's a headcase, but you really can't hold that against him with the way he pitches.

 

I also agree that Prior being injury-prone is a misconception. If you get hit with a line drive like Prior did, you get hurt, regardless of who you are. That's not injury-prone, that's unfortunate.

[USSoccer]

If I had to choose, I'd take Z.

[Marco4]

I'd take Z, I think. In fact, there's no think about it. I'd take Z.

[Laura]

Speaking of which, anybody have the clip of that play, and also the one where, I think, Bonds took a step towards the mound and Prior took a step towards homeplate, as if they were going at eachother?

 

I don't have a clip, but I haven't looked at the radio or tv archives.

 

The Bonds-Prior game was 5/1/2003.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2003/05/02/sp_giants01.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2003/05/02/sp_giants02.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2003/05/02/sp_giants03.jpg

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/season_2003/0501/02.jpg

 

The SF Chronicle[/url]"]Both benches cleared in the third after Cubs starter Mark Prior plunked slugger Barry Bonds in the upper right leg on a 1-1 curveball. Bonds, hit twice on breaking pitches by Kerry Wood on Tuesday, began walking to the mound and Prior motioned him on as they exchanged words.

 

"I'm sure it could have gotten heated. I wasn't going to back down from him at all," Prior said. "Just because he's got 15-20 years in the big leagues and 600 homers and I have been in the league a little under a year doesn't mean I have to stop doing what makes me a professional."

 

Players came running out of both dugouts. No punches were thrown. Baker reached Bonds and talked to him for several moments, telling him it wasn't intentional. Home plate umpire Marvin Hudson issued warnings to both teams.

 

Bonds walked off when asked about it after the game.

 

SF Chronicle[/url]"]Prior didn't backtrack after the game either, saying he was not throwing at Bonds but insisting he will not yield the inside part of the plate.

 

"He's an intimidator. That's part of his game, but it's also part of my game," Prior said of Bonds. "The whole team crowds the plate. One of them is going to get hit."

 

There's another better picture that ran in the Trib, I think, of Bonds basically picking Miller off the ground while Prior is walking off the mound and waving him on.

 

I'm working on the Z moment.

[Chris]

ha ha, good times

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Was that the series when the Cubs beaned Bonds like 5 or 6 times? I have to admit I thought Dusty was pretty cool after that.

[Laura]

Was that the series when the Cubs beaned Bonds like 5 or 6 times? I have to admit I thought Dusty was pretty cool after that.

 

They were all breaking pitches!

 

He homered off Clement twice in the second game.

 

I remember some hilarious Prior quotes after the game, but ... I couldn't find them on google. They're probably here somewhere, which is why we need search back.

[Laura]

The Z-Bonds game was July 31, 2003.

 

I always thought this famous Z photo was from that day, but I'm not certain.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/laserena06/bizrocks.jpg

 

I think it was an ESPN game. They kept playing the clip of Z going nuts and a broadcaster saying "Zambrano seems to be ... doing ... some ... sort ... of dance ... out on the mound, and Bonds is just staring at him."

 

Cubs.com[/url]"]

CHICAGO -- It was the worst possible situation for a National League manager to be in. Bases loaded, two outs and Barry Bonds at the plate.

 

Dusty Baker has had the luxury of being on Bonds' side in the past. Not on Thursday.

 

"It was very uncomfortable," Baker said of the fifth inning at Wrigley Field.

 

Chicago Cubs pitcher Carlos Zambrano was up to the task. He got Bonds to line out to him to end the inning, a sharply hit ball that popped loud enough for all 39,422 fans to hear when it hit his glove. The 22-year-old enthusiastically pumped his fist and pounded his chest as he headed to the dugout.

 

"He's pitching against Barry Bonds and he got him out -- he's not trying to show up anybody," Cubs slugger Sammy Sosa said. "Bases loaded, c'mon. If I was a pitcher, I would do the same thing. Get Barry Bonds out with the bases loaded -- are you kidding me? It's not easy."

 

During the fifth inning of the Cubs 9-4 victory over San Francisco, after retiring Barry Bonds on a liner to the mound left three runners stranded, Zambrano began pumping his fist in exaggerated fashion while staring at the Giants slugger.

 

Bonds seethed afterward, claiming Zambrano was out of line.

 

"I didn't see it," Bonds said. "But that kid will respect me. He'll learn fast. ... You have to show respect to get respect."

 

Zambrano had no regrets, saying he was not trying to be "cocky," but pointing out the hypocrisy of Bonds' misplaced anger.

 

"It was a big out," Zambrano said. "When he hit his 500th home run, he stood at home plate and watched it a little while, and then he runs. He has been doing that since he was a rookie, so I can do anything I want."

 

Dusty Baker's Cubs have made some enemies around the league in his first year of managing in Chicago, including his former player, Barry Bonds.

 

Bonds was upset with Mark Prior in May when the 22-year-old right- hander hit him with a pitch, the third time in that series that Bonds had been plunked. He showed his anger again last Thursday in Wrigley Field after Carlos Zambrano began celebrating wildly for retiring Bonds on a liner with the bases loaded and two outs.

 

"That kid will respect me," Bonds said. "He'll learn fast."

 

Now that he has had a few days to think about it, has Zambrano learned to "respect" Bonds?

 

On the contrary. Zambrano has less respect for Bonds after hearing about his postgame complaints.

 

"I don't care what he says," Zambrano said. "I'm not scared of anybody. My dad taught me not to be afraid of anybody. I can't change my style of pitching just because Barry Bonds says I should."

 

Zambrano, who pitches Thursday against San Diego, said he liked Bonds before he heard the comments from him.

 

"I tried to be friendly with him," Zambrano said. "No more."

[imb]

i hope next year he beans him in his giant watermelon of a forehead.

[Andy]

It was a big out. When he hit his 500th home run, he stood at home plate and watched it a little while, and then he runs. He has been doing that since he was a rookie, so I can do anything I want.

Have I mentioned lately that I LOVE Z?

[anemic offense]

Card fans would obviously pick Zambrano since they've seen him a lot more... and they've seen him throw his nasty stuff..

 

I dont want to remind anyone, but really, off the top of your head, do you remember games Vs. Cards were Z was just, dominating?

 

Actually, Z is usually pretty dominant vs. them most every game. Last year he wasn't as great, but the previous two he handled them as well as anyone.

 

There was even a game in the 03 campaign (at Wrigley) in which the Cards got a couple bogus base runners in the first and loaded the bases. Then Pujols came up, got lucky and barely hit it out of the park (I know Pujols is great, but this one WAS lucky). Although the four runs was enough to beat the Cubs that day (as usual they blew a TON of chances), Z (i believ) yielded 1 hit/baserunner over the next 6-7 innings. Its one where you couldn't tell it by the box score, but the Cardinals were fortunate to even be within TWO runs (let alone win) on that particular day. Z had it cranked up.

[anemic offense]

A little off the thread topic here, but it would sure be nice to see Z get some pinch hit opportunities next year. Injury is always a concern (I'm more scared of him getting plunked in the elbow or hurting himself on his uncoordinated slides than I am of him on the mound), but Z is a very good hitter, especially if he'd learn some plate discipline. Certainly beats anything we have coming off the bench.

[bc2k]

It's hard to decide between the two, but I give the ace nod to Z because he's done more for us due to Prior's DL stints. That said, I think Prior is the better pitcher and is by far the more intelligent of the two. Prior has better mound presence, composure and situational baseball knowledge than Zambrano.