Wood injury update (Rotoworld)

[jjgman21]

you guys just aren't getting it. most of the people here, including myself, agree that it was a stupid, and in hindsite, indefensible move. but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine. I have my opinion too. but that's all it is, opinion, and everyone, no matter what his opinion is or how many posts he has racked up or how many friends he has on the board that have his back, has a right to give their opinion.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

edt: BBB - I apologize for making it seem like I was replying to you. I clicked the wrong button in haste. however, your behavior earlier in this thread, and in a couple other threads I have seen, IS indefensible. you are supposed to be setting an example.

[CubinNY]

you guys just aren't getting it. most of the people here, including myself, agree that it was a stupid, and in hindsite, indefensible move. but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine. I have my opinion too. but that's all it is, opinion, and everyone, no matter what his opinion is or how many posts he has racked up or how many friends he has on the board that have his back, has a right to give their opinion.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

Who here is excercising sensorship? You've been here just has long as I have so I would think you are respected poster.

 

I really don't understand the hang up you have about post counts?

 

The free exchange of ideas means people may disagree. What is the problem?

[BigbadB]

you guys just aren't getting it. most of the people here, including myself, agree that it was a stupid, and in hindsite, indefensible move. but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine. I have my opinion too. but that's all it is, opinion, and everyone, no matter what his opinion is or how many posts he has racked up or how many friends he has on the board that have his back, has a right to give their opinion.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

edt: BBB - I apologize for making it seem like I was replying to you. I clicked the wrong button in haste. however, your behavior earlier in this thread, and in a couple other threads I have seen, IS indefensible. you are supposed to be setting an example.

 

Well, I did admit that I was in a bad mood at the time, but that doesn't excuse the fact I was probably a bit out of line. My apologies to anyone I may have offended.

 

The thing is, we moderators get tired of finding personal attacks in here. We are human and even we can blow up on occasion. If we all just keep it baseball, there wouldn't be a need for moderators. If the insults were so few and far between, it would be much more fun for everyone involved.

 

But, I still won't agree with you on anything. :D

[treebird]

if people make poor arguments, others will point them out, regardless of post count.

 

the idea that it was okay that wood was pitching out of the bullpen because the cubs were about to come back and make the playoffs is a poor argument.

[jjgman21]

you guys just aren't getting it. most of the people here, including myself, agree that it was a stupid, and in hindsite, indefensible move. but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine. I have my opinion too. but that's all it is, opinion, and everyone, no matter what his opinion is or how many posts he has racked up or how many friends he has on the board that have his back, has a right to give their opinion.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

Who here is excercising sensorship? You've been here just has long as I have so I would think you are respected poster.

 

I really don't understand the hang up you have about post counts?

 

The free exchange of ideas means people may disagree. What is the problem?

 

this has all been about this

 

Why do people insist upon taking a contrarian position no matter what the specific criticism of the Cubs, or Hendry?

 

in other words, you are not allowed to disagree with certain criticisms.

 

my obesession with post counts has to do with how many times I have been chastised, and seen others chastised, for saying something to a "long-time respected" poster.

 

I've been around a long time, but have always tried to be an independant thinker. one doesn't become a long-time respected, or have the long-time respecteds come to one's rescue, without subscribing to the same train of thought as said long-time respecteds. in fact, one might say that the long-time respecteds respect noone other than themselves, and they tend to be venomous to those who don't subscribe to their way of thinking. not censorship, but there is certainly a chilling affect.

 

I'm sure many agree, just wish a few more had the guts.

[goonys evil twin]

you guys just aren't getting it.

 

but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

I don't think you get it. The blowup occured after somebody gave a smartass reply belittling another poster's opinion. He wasn't expressing opinion, he was acting very rudely.

 

And some people just so happen to choose the exact opposite opinion of the majority, on every issue. Now, "the majority" doesn't always agree on everything, far from it. Despite a perception that some "longtime posters" just sit around agreeing with each other and knocking out the dissenting voice, that's just not true. I would have to be described as a longterm poster, or at least among the most frequent. And I've argued with just about everybody here. I've gone from complete agreement on certain topics to complete disagreement on other topics with people like Tim, 1908, BBB, Cuse, JC, Sulley and many others. There isn't a trend of one group siding with each other and ignoring others, despite what some wannabe martyrs want to believe.

 

Furthermore, if your opinion is that it made perfect sense to send Wood out when the team stunk and you knew he was injured and needed surgery, you deserve to have people come back at you strong with the opposing view. Anybody can feel free to express a dissenting opinion. But I don't think they have any right to cry "unfair" if and when the majority comes back to rebut.

[USSoccer]

you guys just aren't getting it. most of the people here, including myself, agree that it was a stupid, and in hindsite, indefensible move. but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine. I have my opinion too. but that's all it is, opinion, and everyone, no matter what his opinion is or how many posts he has racked up or how many friends he has on the board that have his back, has a right to give their opinion.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

Who here is excercising sensorship? You've been here just has long as I have so I would think you are respected poster.

 

I really don't understand the hang up you have about post counts?

 

The free exchange of ideas means people may disagree. What is the problem?

 

this has all been about this

 

Why do people insist upon taking a contrarian position no matter what the specific criticism of the Cubs, or Hendry?

 

in other words, you are not allowed to disagree with certain criticisms.

 

my obesession with post counts has to do with how many times I have been chastised, and seen others chastised, for saying something to a "long-time respected" poster.

 

I've been around a long time, but have always tried to be an independant thinker. one doesn't become a long-time respected, or have the long-time respecteds come to one's rescue, without subscribing to the same train of thought as said long-time respecteds. in fact, one might say that the long-time respecteds respect noone other than themselves, and they tend to be venomous to those who don't subscribe to their way of thinking. not censorship, but there is certainly a chilling affect.

 

I'm sure many agree, just wish a few more had the guts.

 

Okay, I wrote that, and your translation of what I wrote is completely wrong. That statement was partly rhetorical and partly directed as people who, no matter the subjectm defend the Cubs Management, even when there is overwhelming evidence that they are wrong. It's not a matter of me thinking or stating that all must agree with me, or whatever. It has nothing to do with "long time respecteds". You've been here a long time, and I respect you. I respect just about everyone here, but some of the battles and arguments people make baffle the heck out of me, and this one is one of them.

 

Obviously everyone has a right to dissent here, and disagree, because otherwise it would be a boring place. If you thnk that I don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you. Just because I have no idea where the impetus to defend, defend, defend the cub braintrust to the death doesn't mean I think they're idiots, or think they shouldn't be allowed to discuss.

 

Heck, look no further to me and CubbieRich. :P He and I butt heads on Kerry Wood all the time, and I've stopped arguing with him about it because it's not a productive use of Tim's bandwidth, but I didn't and won't ignore him, and think that he is well within his rights to have his opinion. I disagree with it 1000%, but it's his opinion.

[badger1679666666]

you guys just aren't getting it.

 

but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

I don't think you get it. The blowup occured after somebody gave a smartass reply belittling another poster's opinion. He wasn't expressing opinion, he was acting very rudely.

 

And some people just so happen to choose the exact opposite opinion of the majority, on every issue. Now, "the majority" doesn't always agree on everything, far from it. Despite a perception that some "longtime posters" just sit around agreeing with each other and knocking out the dissenting voice, that's just not true. I would have to be described as a longterm poster, or at least among the most frequent. And I've argued with just about everybody here. I've gone from complete agreement on certain topics to complete disagreement on other topics with people like Tim, 1908, BBB, Cuse, JC, Sulley and many others. There isn't a trend of one group siding with each other and ignoring others, despite what some wannabe martyrs want to believe.

 

Furthermore, if your opinion is that it made perfect sense to send Wood out when the team stunk and you knew he was injured and needed surgery, you deserve to have people come back at you strong with the opposing view. Anybody can feel free to express a dissenting opinion. But I don't think they have any right to cry "unfair" if and when the majority comes back to rebut.

 

Calling anyone "insane" who believes that wood should have pitched out of the pen is labeling a group of posters, something I got reamed oout about when I refered to the "corey appologists" back in my rookie days as probably is "martyr's".

 

I don't agree with that opinion, but if we're going to have rules on this board, everyone should have to follow them.

 

Just because someone has 14000 posts, and "knows" all the mods doesn't mean they should be able to say things that others can't. I have been seeing this trend all over this board.

 

Even I, can get away with saying certain things that I got reamed about as a rookie on the board. That's plain wrong.

[treebird]

you guys just aren't getting it.

 

but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

I don't think you get it. The blowup occured after somebody gave a smartass reply belittling another poster's opinion. He wasn't expressing opinion, he was acting very rudely.

 

And some people just so happen to choose the exact opposite opinion of the majority, on every issue. Now, "the majority" doesn't always agree on everything, far from it. Despite a perception that some "longtime posters" just sit around agreeing with each other and knocking out the dissenting voice, that's just not true. I would have to be described as a longterm poster, or at least among the most frequent. And I've argued with just about everybody here. I've gone from complete agreement on certain topics to complete disagreement on other topics with people like Tim, 1908, BBB, Cuse, JC, Sulley and many others. There isn't a trend of one group siding with each other and ignoring others, despite what some wannabe martyrs want to believe.

 

Furthermore, if your opinion is that it made perfect sense to send Wood out when the team stunk and you knew he was injured and needed surgery, you deserve to have people come back at you strong with the opposing view. Anybody can feel free to express a dissenting opinion. But I don't think they have any right to cry "unfair" if and when the majority comes back to rebut.

 

Calling anyone "insane" who believes that wood should have pitched out of the pen is labeling a group of posters, something I got reamed oout about when I refered to the "corey appologists" back in my rookie days as probably is "martyr's".

 

I don't agree with that opinion, but if we're going to have rules on this board, everyone should have to follow them.

 

Just because someone has 14000 posts, and "knows" all the mods doesn't mean they should be able to say things that others can't. I have been seeing this trend all over this board.

 

Even I, can get away with saying certain things that I got reamed about as a rookie on the board. That's plain wrong.

 

saying the insane bit is labelling posters is a real reach, in my opinion.

[badger1679666666]

you guys just aren't getting it.

 

but all of my posts have been about protecting people's right to decent on this board. all anyone can say in response is their opinion. that's fine.

 

this is a message board, not the current Congress. it's supposed to be about a free exchange of ideas, not the majority crushing all differing opinions.

 

 

I don't think you get it. The blowup occured after somebody gave a smartass reply belittling another poster's opinion. He wasn't expressing opinion, he was acting very rudely.

 

And some people just so happen to choose the exact opposite opinion of the majority, on every issue. Now, "the majority" doesn't always agree on everything, far from it. Despite a perception that some "longtime posters" just sit around agreeing with each other and knocking out the dissenting voice, that's just not true. I would have to be described as a longterm poster, or at least among the most frequent. And I've argued with just about everybody here. I've gone from complete agreement on certain topics to complete disagreement on other topics with people like Tim, 1908, BBB, Cuse, JC, Sulley and many others. There isn't a trend of one group siding with each other and ignoring others, despite what some wannabe martyrs want to believe.

 

Furthermore, if your opinion is that it made perfect sense to send Wood out when the team stunk and you knew he was injured and needed surgery, you deserve to have people come back at you strong with the opposing view. Anybody can feel free to express a dissenting opinion. But I don't think they have any right to cry "unfair" if and when the majority comes back to rebut.

 

Calling anyone "insane" who believes that wood should have pitched out of the pen is labeling a group of posters, something I got reamed oout about when I refered to the "corey appologists" back in my rookie days as probably is "martyr's".

 

I don't agree with that opinion, but if we're going to have rules on this board, everyone should have to follow them.

 

Just because someone has 14000 posts, and "knows" all the mods doesn't mean they should be able to say things that others can't. I have been seeing this trend all over this board.

 

Even I, can get away with saying certain things that I got reamed about as a rookie on the board. That's plain wrong.

 

saying the insane bit is labelling posters is a real reach, in my opinion.

 

Ok, just for the record, I can call anyone who doesn't believe what I think as insane?

 

As long as everything's clear.

[BigbadB]

Ok, just for the record, I can call anyone who doesn't believe what I think as insane?

 

As long as everything's clear.

 

Uh, that would be a definite NO. But, nice try though.

 

Can we now get back to the topic at hand, which I believe had something to do with Kerry Wood pitching in relief for no other apparent reason except Dusty felt the need to preserve a winning season for his own personal gain.

[CubfaninCA]

Why do people insist upon taking a contrarian position no matter what the specific criticism of the Cubs, or Hendry?

 

I posted this earlier, but it bears repeating-contacts and decisions on who is signed and retained can be fairly questioned and defended, some more than other. However, the decision to take a guy who needed surgery and waste a month when

 

-the team was 4.5 back behind 6 other teams

-he was going to give us 1 inning every 3 days out of the pen

-The guy in question is one of your best SP when healthy

 

was inexcusable no matter what logic you use. A setup guy was not going to take the Cubs from a .500 team and magically change them into a contender. Hendry, Baker, O'Neal and to a lesser extent MacPhail should have known better, and one of them should have stopped it. Instead, they deluded themselves into thinking that the team they saw after 110 games would be different than the one they would see after 135.

 

That month is valuable, especially when you consider the past, recent history with Wood, our pitchers in general, and their collective extended rehabs. It was a stupid, ignorant and indefensible position, and defending the decision is nothing more than being contrarian for the sake of it. Even posters who are normally Hendry defenders should concede this single point, as it is without any question a move without a legit defense.

 

Ridiculous.

[CubfaninCA]

Hats off to all those who predicted the Cubs flopping down the stretch, but lets not get too carreid away w/ the back slappin cause for every right prediction there's a long list of wrong predictions too. People don't like it when Choi floppin, DuBois flopping, Giles to SD, etc. is thrown in their face.

 

Also, it's not "contrarian" or "insane" to think the Cubs had a shot @ the playoffs w/ 53 games to go.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hats off to all those who predicted the Cubs flopping down the stretch, but lets not get too carreid away w/ the back slappin cause for every right prediction there's a long list of wrong predictions too. People don't like it when Choi floppin, DuBois flopping, Giles to SD, etc. is thrown in their face.

 

 

 

Lest we forget, you were the one who brought up that topic with this post.

 

Fwiw and iirc Wood wasn't ready to shut it down on Aug 5th and if the Cubs catch fire in August then it's a good move. It's easy to call it idiotic after the fact.

[CubfaninCA]

Hats off to all those who predicted the Cubs flopping down the stretch, but lets not get too carreid away w/ the back slappin cause for every right prediction there's a long list of wrong predictions too. People don't like it when Choi floppin, DuBois flopping, Giles to SD, etc. is thrown in their face.

 

 

 

Lest we forget, you were the one who brought up that topic with this post.

 

Fwiw and iirc Wood wasn't ready to shut it down on Aug 5th and if the Cubs catch fire in August then it's a good move. It's easy to call it idiotic after the fact.

 

The back slappin started long before that post.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hats off to all those who predicted the Cubs flopping down the stretch, but lets not get too carreid away w/ the back slappin cause for every right prediction there's a long list of wrong predictions too. People don't like it when Choi floppin, DuBois flopping, Giles to SD, etc. is thrown in their face.

 

 

 

Lest we forget, you were the one who brought up that topic with this post.

 

Fwiw and iirc Wood wasn't ready to shut it down on Aug 5th and if the Cubs catch fire in August then it's a good move. It's easy to call it idiotic after the fact.

 

The back slappin started long before that post.

 

I don't see any.

[CubmanPi]

I was really prepared to read "Wood had a setback and won't be available until the All-Star Break" before opening this thread.

 

They'll be making that announcement around the second week of March, 6 weeks after the one where they tell us about how his timetable was miscalculated and that late may/early june is more likely.

[bc2k]

Ok, just for the record, I can call anyone who doesn't believe what I think as insane?

 

As long as everything's clear.

 

Uh, that would be a definite NO. But, nice try though.

 

Can we now get back to the topic at hand, which I believe had something to do with Kerry Wood pitching in relief for no other apparent reason except Dusty felt the need to preserve a winning season for his own personal gain.

 

Ding Ding Ding! I also think Dusty used the WC possibility as an excuse to meet his real goal: obtaining a .500 record for his own personal gain. Pitching him the day before surgery?

[BigbadB]

Ok, just for the record, I can call anyone who doesn't believe what I think as insane?

 

As long as everything's clear.

 

Uh, that would be a definite NO. But, nice try though.

 

Can we now get back to the topic at hand, which I believe had something to do with Kerry Wood pitching in relief for no other apparent reason except Dusty felt the need to preserve a winning season for his own personal gain.

 

Ding Ding Ding! I also think Dusty used the WC possibility as an excuse to meet his real goal: obtaining a .500 record for his own personal gain. Pitching him the day before surgery?

 

I have no doubt about that. What other reason would you not try out Murton and/or Cedeno at the top of the order. What Dusty didn't know was that by putting Perez and Macias at the top of the order, he was only setting himself up for failure even more.

 

His moves in September were pretty obvious that he wanted a .500 or better record. As a Cub fan, an 81-81 season is no more successful than a 65-97 record. Not being in the playoffs is what it is.

 

To sacrifice reps of potential prospects for a guy you're just going to kick off the team when the season is over (Macias) is bad decision making.

 

Putting Wood in the bullpen was about as far from brilliant as it gets.

[badger1679666666]

Ok, just for the record, I can call anyone who doesn't believe what I think as insane?

 

As long as everything's clear.

 

Uh, that would be a definite NO. But, nice try though.

 

Can we now get back to the topic at hand, which I believe had something to do with Kerry Wood pitching in relief for no other apparent reason except Dusty felt the need to preserve a winning season for his own personal gain.

 

Ding Ding Ding! I also think Dusty used the WC possibility as an excuse to meet his real goal: obtaining a .500 record for his own personal gain. Pitching him the day before surgery?

 

That really should be grounds for instant firing

[Cubfanintheknow]

I think too many people are getting their undies in a bind about Wood not being on the Openind Day roster. With all the off-days, a fifth starter is only needed twice. Maybe Baker lets that fifth starter start three times to keep guys somewhat rested.

 

It's not that big a deal, really.

[erik316wttn]

I think too many people are getting their undies in a bind about Wood not being on the Openind Day roster. With all the off-days, a fifth starter is only needed twice. Maybe Baker lets that fifth starter start three times to keep guys somewhat rested.

 

It's not that big a deal, really.

 

Wood>>>>>> 5th starter.

 

Being without Kerry Wood's production is a HUGE deal. Especially when he could have been ready and healthy for Opening Day if Hendry and Co *cough*Dusty*cough* would have shut him down right away instead of trying to make

 

And if he misses 1 or 2 starts, fine. But everyone knows how the Cubs operate.

 

December: Will miss opening day

 

January: Should be ready by May 1

 

February: Will be back by mid-June at the latest

 

March: Out till the All-Star break

 

It's sad, really.

Edited December 22, 2005 by erik316wttn

[UK1679666180]

For me, it's more about the principle behind it. He needs surgery, they know he needs surgery, yet they put him in the pen, coming off a stint from the DL, he has never pitched from the pen, and always shown spotty control. It was a horrible decision both in principle and results.

 

But, Wood should be the #3 starter on this staff behind Z and Prior and ahead of Maddux & Williams/Rusch.

 

Now, if Wood was the #5 starter if healthy going into the season, then the Cubs have the best staff in MLB and I wouldn't be worried.

 

Since they have Z (a legit #1), Prior (who knows anywhere from a #1-3), Maddux (a #5 starter), Rusch and Williams (likely 4/5 starters), this rotation is not looking very strong w/out Wood.

[Cubfanintheknow]

For me, it's more about the principle behind it. He needs surgery, they know he needs surgery, yet they put him in the pen, coming off a stint from the DL, he has never pitched from the pen, and always shown spotty control. It was a horrible decision both in principle and results.

 

But, Wood should be the #3 starter on this staff behind Z and Prior and ahead of Maddux & Williams/Rusch.

 

Now, if Wood was the #5 starter if healthy going into the season, then the Cubs have the best staff in MLB and I wouldn't be worried.

 

Since they have Z (a legit #1), Prior (who knows anywhere from a #1-3), Maddux (a #5 starter), Rusch and Williams (likely 4/5 starters), this rotation is not looking very strong w/out Wood.

 

I understand the principle of the matter. But even if Wood had had his surgery July 1st, he would have been handled with kid gloves come April 2006. I'm certainly not arguing the decision to put him in the pen was a good one. I'm just saying that no matter when he had his surgery, Wood really wasn't going to be much of a factor in the rotation in April.

[UK1679666180]

If you're not saying it was a good move to put him in the pen, what were the reason why it wasn't a good move (I'll probably agree w/them)?

 

To me, potentially delaying the start of the 06' is just one of several reasons.

 

But if they could've increased the rate when he'd be 100%, they should've.

 

The odds are higher that he'd be 100% at an earlier date if he had the surgery in July rather than the end of August.

 

It depends on how his body and shoulder rehabs as far as a definite timetable, but he would be farther along had he not gone to the pen for a month.