From the Score (I know, I know):

[WrigleyinEngland]

I don't see the need for furcal now, put Cedeno at short let Atlanta overpay for Furcal and look to 'help them out' by getting M giles as our Number 2 hitter?

[LuckyPup]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say this deal involves Novoa, Greenberg and Pinto.

thats probably a very good estimate-

[rawaction]

Oh boy, the Score says they "don't know why the Cubs don't bring Jeromy back" ....

 

 

Bwahhaaahhhaaahhaa

 

Hopefully this means they're wrong about the Pierre deal. Pinto may be our best pitching commodity in the minors, as he's got great stuff, isn't constantly injured (a la Guzman), and is relatively close to the bigs. To give him AND two other prospects up for an overpriced, potentially awful Juan Pierre coming off of a bad season for 1 year is absolutely ridiculous.

 

It still depends on who they are. I'd hate to give Pinto up, because he is close and healthy, but I still rate Hill and Marshall higher from the left side. But if the Cubs give up a couple of players with no future, it's a decent deal, depending on Pierre getting back to 2004 numbers.

[FloridaCubbie]

The Score sucks, I would complain about all the commercials, but they are better than the programing.

[ShawonOmeter12]

to me it seems obvious that pinto is the main piece and that the other two players are not going to be on his level. i really like this trade for pierre. for all of his shortcomings he is a LEADOFF hitter that we need to get on in front of lee and aram. to me our window to win is closing and i for one would really like to make the push now and worry about if pinto turns out to be good player or not later. and while i am rambling i like both the eyre and howry deals. solidify the bulllpen and now move on to the offense. i think we all need to give hendry a chance to do his thing and judge the offseason as a whole and not jump all over each move.

[RynoRules]

Pinto - unnknown position player (Greenburg seems like he isn't enough, but what do I know) - Novoa makes some sense.

[Drew Doughty]

Pierre lead-off hitter? yes. Good lead-off hitter? no.

 

Get Castillo instead or rework the deal to include Patterson or Walker to get Castillo.

[WrigleyField 22]

If Greenberg was in the trade, wouldn't he have to be named as a PTBNL at this point? Not being on the 40man he is open to the Rule 5 draft, so wouldn't we have to wait till after that to trade him?

[JeffH]

Castillo has extremely serious leg issues.

 

No, thank you.

[Diffusion]

One thing that definately needs to be added to my assessment of Pierre is that he also has no history of injury-related problems either. He is a guy that you can pencil into the lineup just about every day of the year.

 

Let's set the record straight on Pierre, who's 28 years old: he's a marginally above average hitter, with potential for significant variation in both directions, he's below average defensively, he steals an awful lot of bases, but gets caught too frequently, he's a free agent after 2006, he's slated to earn in the region of $5m this year and, for what it's worth, he has no history of chemistry-related problems.

 

I'd also add that he has a greater likelihood of being really bad than really good, since his ceiling isn't that fantastic.

 

I actually disagree with that. Pierre's success with the bat is tied entirely to his batting average on balls in play, a lot of which is tied to his speed, a lot of which is tied to sample size variations, and who really knows why they occur? Certainly not me. Anyway, I think Pierre will find it difficult over a full season to hit much lower than the .293 on balls in play mark he set in 2005, simply because of his speed, and so he shouldn't really get too much worse than that, injuries aside, obviously. Meanwhile another year like he had in 2004, maybe a touch better, certainly isn't out of the question.

[ThePenguin11]

You know what I don't understand? Where all the anti-Jim Hendry sentiment has come from? I see so many spoiled-brat attitude Cubs fans with this mentality, and it really doesn't make sense. The only reason there are expectations for the Cubs now and for the past 5 years is because of what he has been able to accomplish. It's a tough market right now and he's doing all that he can to make this team better. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need (and who the h cares when its Trib money anyways?). And what is with the Pierre sucks sentiment? Is he supposed to make a trade for Ichiro (impossible)? Leadoff hitters are one of the hardest commodities to find in baseball and he's going after the two that are the most available. He's taking the path of least resistance. I see names like Gathright and Gomes thrown out there for possible solutions and laugh. Top prospect / future star leadoff hitters would cost Ramirez, Lee or Zambrano. Sometimes I just can't take this sense of entitlement from fellow Cub fans. I'll go away now.

[Tim]

If Greenberg was in the trade, wouldn't he have to be named as a PTBNL at this point? Not being on the 40man he is open to the Rule 5 draft, so wouldn't we have to wait till after that to trade him?

We're perfectly free to trade him now if Florida would take him. But that would expose FL to the chance that someone takes him in the rule 5, which is why most of the time guys in that position are listed as PTBNL's.

[Mushimus]

Castillo has extremely serious leg issues.

 

No, thank you.

 

And hip problems.

[ShawonOmeter12]

i also think that with the long infield grass at wrigley pierre will have even greater success on slap hits and bunts

[USSoccer]

Oh boy, the Score says they "don't know why the Cubs don't bring Jeromy back" ....

 

 

Bwahhaaahhhaaahhaa

 

Hopefully this means they're wrong about the Pierre deal. Pinto may be our best pitching commodity in the minors, as he's got great stuff, isn't constantly injured (a la Guzman), and is relatively close to the bigs. To give him AND two other prospects up for an overpriced, potentially awful Juan Pierre coming off of a bad season for 1 year is absolutely ridiculous.

 

It still depends on who they are. I'd hate to give Pinto up, because he is close and healthy, but I still rate Hill and Marshall higher from the left side. But if the Cubs give up a couple of players with no future, it's a decent deal, depending on Pierre getting back to 2004 numbers.

 

I don't mind this-Pawlecek (sp), Marshall and Hill are still strong LHP in our system. Pierre-even as a rental, keeps Neifi from ever being batted 1st again. It leaves a lot of money for us to address the OF, and we can avoid overpaying for Furcal.

[gflore34]

Pierre lead-off hitter? yes. Good lead-off hitter? no.

 

Get Castillo instead or rework the deal to include Patterson or Walker to get Castillo.

 

Why no re-work the deal to get both say, Patterson, Walker and Pinto for Castillo and Pierre?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Let's set the record straight on Pierre, who's 28 years old: he's a marginally above average hitter, with potential for significant variation in both directions, he's below average defensively, he steals an awful lot of bases, but gets caught too frequently, he's a free agent after 2006, he's slated to earn in the region of $5m this year and, for what it's worth, he has no history of chemistry-related problems.

 

I'd also add that he has a greater likelihood of being really bad than really good, since his ceiling isn't that fantastic.

 

My question would be is Pierre an upgrade to what the Cubs had last year at the top of the order? Yes. I like the trade and think he'll set the table nicely for DLee and Aramis. Now Hendry needs to get the Furcal deal done and the top of the Cubs order will be stacked.

 

Another point I'd like to make is that Pierre is considered below average defensively because of a poor throwing arm, he can go get 'em with the best of them, even covering the vast expanses of Pro Player Stadium. If this trade goes through, it will be nice to see Hendry heading in the right direction.

 

You could stick just about any player in there and have an improvement over last year. That isn't really an argument for Pierre specifically.

 

He doesn't really have a lot of range even though he has above average speed. His reads on the ball aren't too quick, which limits him. He does throw like a girl (no offense to the ladies with cannons). People actually complained about Patterson's arm last year. Wait till you see 140+ games of Pierre in CF.

 

Keep in mind that Pierre is a one year rental unless Pie is dealt off and we get an extension with Pierre (which i'm not in favor of).

[JeffH]

We're perfectly free to trade him now if Florida would take him. But that would expose FL to the chance that someone takes him in the rule 5, which is why most of the time guys in that position are listed as PTBNL's.

 

I don't believe that's true. He was DFA'd. If we were to trade him to FL, they could put him on their 40-man roster.

 

I think...

[USSoccer]

Pierre lead-off hitter? yes. Good lead-off hitter? no.

 

Get Castillo instead or rework the deal to include Patterson or Walker to get Castillo.

 

Why no re-work the deal to get both say, Patterson, Walker and Pinto for Castillo and Pierre?

 

Florida is dumping payroll like a bad girlfriend. They won't want Walker or Patterson at their salaries. They want prospects.

[goonys evil twin]

You know what I don't understand? Where all the anti-Jim Hendry sentiment has come from? I see so many spoiled-brat attitude Cubs fans with this mentality

 

 

Oh goody.

 

 

and it really doesn't make sense. The only reason there are expectations for the Cubs now and for the past 5 years is because of what he has been able to accomplish. It's a tough market right now and he's doing all that he can to make this team better. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need (and who the h cares when its Trib money anyways?). And what is with the Pierre sucks sentiment? Is he supposed to make a trade for Ichiro (impossible)? Leadoff hitters are one of the hardest commodities to find in baseball and he's going after the two that are the most available. He's taking the path of least resistance. I see names like Gathright and Gomes thrown out there for possible solutions and laugh. Top prospect / future star leadoff hitters would cost Ramirez, Lee or Zambrano. Sometimes I just can't take this sense of entitlement from fellow Cub fans. I'll go away now.

 

Personally I'm disgusted by the attitude that since the Cubs are better than they were 10 years ago, we should just be satisfied with where they are now.

 

My distaste for Hendry can be summed up pretty easily:

 

A top 5 payroll has produced 88, 89 and 79 win seasons.

 

To me, that's failure. Hendry inefficiently manages his payroll, completely ignores anything resemblind modern objective analysis, and relies too heavily on old school conventional wisdom that has proved to do nothing good for this team.

Edited November 23, 2005 by goony's evil twin

[wade]

You know what I don't understand? Where all the anti-Jim Hendry sentiment has come from? I see so many spoiled-brat attitude Cubs fans with this mentality, and it really doesn't make sense. The only reason there are expectations for the Cubs now and for the past 5 years is because of what he has been able to accomplish. It's a tough market right now and he's doing all that he can to make this team better. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need (and who the h cares when its Trib money anyways?). And what is with the Pierre sucks sentiment? Is he supposed to make a trade for Ichiro (impossible)? Leadoff hitters are one of the hardest commodities to find in baseball and he's going after the two that are the most available. He's taking the path of least resistance. I see names like Gathright and Gomes thrown out there for possible solutions and laugh. Top prospect / future star leadoff hitters would cost Ramirez, Lee or Zambrano. Sometimes I just can't take this sense of entitlement from fellow Cub fans. I'll go away now.

 

Again, those concerned about how much the team pays for certain players are only concerned that other needs will not be met. The Cubs operate on a budget.

 

Yes, there's a lot of money to go around. Yes, it's not our money. BUT, there is a limit. Signing not so great players for big money may keep them from upgrades elsewhere.

 

That said, I think they could do worse than Pierre.

[Diffusion]

Another point I'd like to make is that Pierre is considered below average defensively because of a poor throwing arm, he can go get 'em with the best of them, even covering the vast expanses of Pro Player Stadium.

 

This is a nonsense. Pierre gets poor jumps/reads and doesn't take the best routes (too much sideways then back), and not even his blistering speed compensates. The fact that his arm is awful is a pretty minor factor in any overall consideration of his defence.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

You know what I don't understand? Where all the anti-Jim Hendry sentiment has come from? I see so many spoiled-brat attitude Cubs fans with this mentality, and it really doesn't make sense. The only reason there are expectations for the Cubs now and for the past 5 years is because of what he has been able to accomplish. It's a tough market right now and he's doing all that he can to make this team better. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need (and who the h cares when its Trib money anyways?). And what is with the Pierre sucks sentiment? Is he supposed to make a trade for Ichiro (impossible)? Leadoff hitters are one of the hardest commodities to find in baseball and he's going after the two that are the most available. He's taking the path of least resistance. I see names like Gathright and Gomes thrown out there for possible solutions and laugh. Top prospect / future star leadoff hitters would cost Ramirez, Lee or Zambrano. Sometimes I just can't take this sense of entitlement from fellow Cub fans. I'll go away now.

 

we don't have an infinite budget. every million matters. :wink:

 

who wants gathright or gomes to lead off? what's ridiculous is the notion that you have to put speedy guys at leadoff.

[Butterscup1679666578]

I was reading something on FanHome, and this is what this one guy posted:

 

Headline: Marlins continue housecleaning as Pierre and Mota are next to go.

 

On the heals of trading Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, and Carlos Delgado, the Marlins are at it again.

 

The Florida Marlins along with the Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Yankees have agreed on an eight player trade involving Juan Pierre, Guillermo Mota, Milton Bradley, and Carl Pavano.

 

The Florida Marlins have traded outfielder Juan Pierre to the Los Angeles Dodgers and relief pitcher Guillermo Mota to the New York Yankees. In return Florida receives pitchers DJ Houlton and Yhency Brazoban, and minor league outfielder Delwyn Young from Los Angeles, along with minor league outfielder, Melky Cabrera, from New York.

 

Maligned outfielder Milton Bradley goes to New York, and former Marlin, Carl Pavano goes to Los Angeles. The Yankees are set to send LA 3.4 million of Pavano’s contract for 2006, and 4.6 million for 2007. Pavano is set to make 8.0 million in ’06, 10.0 million in ’07, 11.0 million in ’08. and 13.0 million in ’09 (with a team option for a 1.95 million dollar buyout). According to General Manager, Larry Beinfest, this is done deal, despite pending approval by the commissioner’s office.

 

 

there was no link in the thread, but here is a link to the actual thread

http://mb7.scout.com/fbaseballfrm2.showMessage?topicID=4326.topic

Edited November 23, 2005 by Butterscup

[Tim]

You know what I don't understand? Where all the anti-Jim Hendry sentiment has come from? I see so many spoiled-brat attitude Cubs fans with this mentality, and it really doesn't make sense. The only reason there are expectations for the Cubs now and for the past 5 years is because of what he has been able to accomplish. It's a tough market right now and he's doing all that he can to make this team better. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need (and who the h cares when its Trib money anyways?). And what is with the Pierre sucks sentiment? Is he supposed to make a trade for Ichiro (impossible)? Leadoff hitters are one of the hardest commodities to find in baseball and he's going after the two that are the most available. He's taking the path of least resistance. I see names like Gathright and Gomes thrown out there for possible solutions and laugh. Top prospect / future star leadoff hitters would cost Ramirez, Lee or Zambrano. Sometimes I just can't take this sense of entitlement from fellow Cub fans. I'll go away now.

When I see Hendry make a move I like, I'll be very vocal about that. But so far this offseason, i haven't seen a lot to cheer for.

 

I just don't believe in the myth of the leadoff hitter. He's a leadoff hitter once a game. I don't believe that speed is that disruptive a force - it certainly does not have the impact of extra base hits on scoring runs.

 

I don't believe in overpaying middle relievers who are coming off a career year. I think if you looked at it realistically and ranked relievers based upon their "stuff", you would come closer to predicting the next year's performance than if you ranked them by their previous year's performance. And I'm simply not overwhelmed by the "stuff" of Howry or Eyre (particularly Eyre).