Surprise! Pujols wins NL MVP

[SouthSideRyan]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Welcome to the family Chief Cardinal and Cardsfan in ChiTown, good to see you leave the dark side!

 

Also good to see you abandon you're "Jones beating Lee is ridiculous" argument.

[snoodmonger]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

It took you long enough.

[Chief_Cardinal]

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

This this case...correct! In the Cy Young's case, Wrong! LOL

[frostwyrm]

The MVP voters are neanderthals who belong in a museum. I am certain that stupid RBI title tipped the scales in Jones' favor relative to Lee, but the sad fact is there's no way Jones would have won the RBI title if he hadn't had a boatload more RBI opportunities than Lee or Pujols. Jones, who finished with only 5 HR more than Lee, was actually really bad with RISP and 32 of his HR were solo shots. If Lee's and Jones' numbers of at bats with RISP or men-on-base were flip-flopped Lee would have blown Jones out of the water in the RBI race and also in the MVP voting. You could make similar analogies for the Cy Young. A starting pitcher backed by a good offense and good bullpen will get many more opportunities to pick up a win than if he didn't have those advantages. I am not against these awards per se, but we need smarter voters.

[chopsx9]

It might be worthwhile (or not??) to point out that the palyers voted Jones the player of the year in the NL beating out both Lee and Pujols.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Welcome to the family Chief Cardinal and Cardsfan in ChiTown, good to see you leave the dark side!

 

Thanks SouthSideRyan but make no mistake I hate the Cubs!

 

As for the issue at hand...

 

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle in the Lee vs. Pujols MVP debate. On one hand I do believe Lee had a better year stats wise. On the other hand I think the fact that AP was the glue that held the Cards injury-plagued offense together during their playoff push should also mean something. I think there has to be some wiggle room in the voting for ”intangibles” (yes, the dreaded word). If AP was out of the discussion and it was just Jones and Lee would those ”intangibles” be enough for Jones to win over Lee's stats? Not a chance! Another thing - do we really want our awards generated by a computer?

 

My view is Lee and Pujols are both worthy - it’s just a matter of taste. There is no right or wrong answer on this one.

 

 

edit - made things a little more clear

[Andy]

The MVP voters are neanderthals who belong in a museum. I am certain that stupid RBI title tipped the scales in Jones' favor relative to Lee, but the sad fact is there's no way Jones would have won the RBI title if he hadn't had a boatload more RBI opportunities than Lee or Pujols. Jones, who finished with only 5 HR more than Lee, was actually really bad with RISP and 32 of his HR were solo shots. If Lee's and Jones' numbers of at bats with RISP or men-on-base were flip-flopped Lee would have blown Jones out of the water in the RBI race and also in the MVP voting. You could make similar analogies for the Cy Young. A starting pitcher backed by a good offense and good bullpen will get many more opportunities to pick up a win than if he didn't have those advantages. I am not against these awards per se, but we need smarter voters.

Frost, if Lee had had Jones' amount of opportunities with men on and with RISP, he likely would have had so many RBIs that he would have beaten out not just Jones but Pujols as well, regardless of their teams' performance.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and if I were a Cubs fan, I'd probably make the same argument.

 

Words like "productive" are pretty arbitrary, though. Which stat do you want to use? Pujols finished ahead of Lee in Win Shares. That's a stat. Should that be the end of the discussion?

 

I have 3 workers. One is on 1st shift, one is on 2nd shift, and one is on 3rd shift. The first shift worker is SLIGHTLY more productive than the other two, but tends to be a distraction to those around him, which makes them LESS productive than the folks working around the 2nd and 3rd shift employees (the 2nd and 3rd shift workers have motivational personalities, and the overall production on their shifts is better). So which employee would you rather keep? Simplisticly, you'd keep the first shift (slightly more productive) worker. When you look at the big picture, you might be better off keeping the other two.

 

There are lots of ways to look at it. Apparently the voters went beyond "best OPS" or "best VORP". You don't have to agree with it, that's for sure. Like I said, I wouldn't, if I were in your shoes.

 

This ridiculous analogy might actually hold water if there was any evidence at all Lee was a clubhouse problem. If we were talking about Gary Sheffield or such a character in the MVP race then fine. But to more accurately appy this analogy, you'd have to say what if the first shift work is slightly more productive, but the stupid employer put him with a bunch of deadbeats. You'd still keep him and reward him and certainly not hold him accountable for the deadbeats he had no control over.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

But to more accurately appy this analogy, you'd have to say what if the first shift work is slightly more productive, but the stupid employer put him with a bunch of deadbeats. You'd still keep him and reward him and certainly not hold him accountable for the deadbeats he had no control over.

 

Sweet, Vance just called everyone on the Cubs but Lee deadbeats! :D

[SouthSideRyan]

But to more accurately appy this analogy, you'd have to say what if the first shift work is slightly more productive, but the stupid employer put him with a bunch of deadbeats. You'd still keep him and reward him and certainly not hold him accountable for the deadbeats he had no control over.

 

Sweet, Vance just called everyone on the Cubs but Lee deadbeats! :D

 

Well....Ramirez was pretty good.

[K-Town]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

[frostwyrm]

Jones got a lot of MVP votes because he won 2 legs of the Triple Crown, but he did NOT deserve the RBI title. He hit 5 more home runs than Lee, other than that Jones did nothing to merit getting more MVP votes than Lee. Lee's paucity of RBI's is a direct result of the crappy batters his manager put in front of him. Should a player be penalized for having a stupid manager? I think a player should be rewarded based on how he handled the opportunities he had, not the number of those opportunities, over which he has no control.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

Nah, my idiot list is long enough already.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

Do you not remember your own posts from about 2 hours ago??

[snoodmonger]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

You insinuated only Cubs fans thought DLee should've won it. they proved you wrong. I think that was the point there.

[K-Town]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

Nah, my idiot list is long enough already.

 

Apparently so.

[Andy]

But to more accurately appy this analogy, you'd have to say what if the first shift work is slightly more productive, but the stupid employer put him with a bunch of deadbeats. You'd still keep him and reward him and certainly not hold him accountable for the deadbeats he had no control over.

 

Sweet, Vance just called everyone on the Cubs but Lee deadbeats! :D

 

Well....Ramirez was pretty good.

And he was injured for most of August/September, and DLee STILL managed to put up 1.000+ OPS's in those two months, and also hit 14 homers in those months. Of course thanks to the Corey/Hairston/Neifi/Macias gang of idiots, Lee had 24 RBIs to show for those 14 homers.

[K-Town]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

You insinuated only Cubs fans thought DLee should've won it. they proved you wrong. I think that was the point there.

 

 

Obviously I was making an exaggerated point when I said "the rest of America". I guess I should clarify. The vast majority of America, outside of Cubville, believes that Pujols was the most valuable player in the National League this year.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

You insinuated only Cubs fans thought DLee should've won it. they proved you wrong. I think that was the point there.

 

 

Obviously I was making an exaggerated point when I said "the rest of America". I guess I should clarify. The vast majority of America, outside of Cubville, believes that Pujols was the most valuable player in the National League this year.

 

At one time the vast majority of the people believed the earth was flat too.

[1908]

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

Do you not remember your own posts from about 2 hours ago??

This one?

 

This year was close enough that either Pujols or Lee could have had a legitimate case.

Why are you still arguing this point, K-Town? Were you just being magnanimous at the start of this thread? Or do you just like arguing with Cubs fans?

[snoodmonger]

The majority has been wrong many many times in the past. It'd shock me if Lee had any significant vote total in an online poll, cause you barely heard his name mentioned in the past month because as previously stated, those in the media, not so smart.

 

The majority of America in both that online vote and the MVP vote also said Jones was better than Lee, should we accept that as well?

 

So basically, Cubs fans are right, and the rest of America is wrong?

 

Didn't BP do a feature a while back touting Lee for MVP?

 

As did Dayn Parry for Fox Sports.

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

You insinuated only Cubs fans thought DLee should've won it. they proved you wrong. I think that was the point there.

 

 

Obviously I was making an exaggerated point when I said "the rest of America". I guess I should clarify. The vast majority of America, outside of Cubville, believes that Pujols was the most valuable player in the National League this year.

 

You were ignoring the obvious purpose of their posts is all I'm saying, and it seemed silly.

 

They were just providing evidence to support the idea that an objective observer might rule in favor of DLee. But you pretended they were saying there was more MVP support for Lee than Pujols.

[K-Town]

At one time the vast majority of the people believed the earth was flat too.

 

 

That's not an arbitrary stance to make, though. The world isn't flat. That's a fact. That stance has been proven to be false. The MVP is simply people's perspective. There is no right or wrong answer. Most people believe that Pujols was more valuable than Lee, all the sailors in the world can't prove otherwise.

 

The Cubs have had their share of MVP's....... some worthy, and some not. Maybe Lee will get one someday. More power to him. Lord knows that Pujols had to wait for his. It's not a big deal.

[K-Town]

 

As did you. So what? Two guys like Derrek Lee.

 

Do you want me to show you the links that say that Pujols should be the MVP?

 

Do you not remember your own posts from about 2 hours ago??

This one?

 

This year was close enough that either Pujols or Lee could have had a legitimate case.

Why are you still arguing this point, K-Town? Were you just being magnanimous at the start of this thread? Or do you just like arguing with Cubs fans?

 

 

No, I think that it was close enough that Pujols or Lee could have had a case. In fact, I've already said that if I were a Cubs fan, I'd be making a case for Lee. As fans, there's nothing stopping us from being a little biased toward our team's players.

 

To answer your other question, yes, it's fun arguing with Cubs fans, as long as they remain civil (which most of the folks here do). Seems harmless enough........

 

It would be a boring world if we all agreed, and we would need chat boards, just pages and pages of stats to stare at.

[1908]

To answer your other question, yes, it's fun arguing with Cubs fans, as long as they remain civil (which most of the folks here do). Seems harmless enough........

 

It would be a boring world if we all agreed, and we would need chat boards, just pages and pages of stats to stare at.

If you believe that both players have a case, I don't understand why you keep arguing against Lee. There's nothing wrong with an honest argument, but just arguing's for arguing sake gets old in a hurry.