Peter Gammons on ESPN Radio 11/4/05

[YearofDaCubs]

I'm not buying that they're committed to both Murton & Cedeno. Jmo but Jim's doing some posturing on Cedeno. If there's a deal out there for either Kent or Sori, I think he'll jump on it.

 

In re: to an impact corner OF, if they're going w/ Murton (which I can buy), that leaves Giles, Abreu, Sheff, Ichiro and Drew as the impact corner OF's.

 

Sheff will be difficult to get considering how he'll try to block almost any trade.

 

Getting Abreu will take a 3rd party, since it's doubtful the Cubs have the right type of package of players. Same goes for Drew.

 

They may be able to get Ichiro straight up.

The worst thing we can do is go after Soriano or Kent. Unnecessary move.

[badgercub]

Remember Vince Coleman and Willie Mcgee during the Mid 80's.....I hated them but that was a team that made you nervous...pure speed

 

The difference being that McGee had more power than Furcal and Coleman knew how to steal bases without getting thrown out 45% of the time.

 

I thought I saw it posted somewhere else the Furcal had a success rate of over 80% on stolen bases.

[biittner77]

Remember Vince Coleman and Willie Mcgee during the Mid 80's.....I hated them but that was a team that made you nervous...pure speed

 

The difference being that McGee had more power than Furcal and Coleman knew how to steal bases without getting thrown out 45% of the time.

 

I thought I saw it posted somewhere else the Furcal had a success rate of over 80% on stolen bases.

 

Could be. I was referring to Pierre.

[mg420]

Remember Vince Coleman and Willie Mcgee during the Mid 80's.....I hated them but that was a team that made you nervous...pure speed

 

The difference being that McGee had more power than Furcal and Coleman knew how to steal bases without getting thrown out 45% of the time.

 

huh? furcal has far more power than mcgee. willie had 79 hr's in 7649 ab's while furcal has 45 in 2642 ab's. as far as sb's, furcal has been caught stealing 28% in his career while pierre is at 36% (30% in 05).

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Cubs: "What I have been told is that the Cubs are going to play 2 $300K players in their starting lineup: Matt Murton in LF and Ronny Cedeno at 2B; if that's the case, the Cubs will have plenty of money to get Furcal, an impact corner outfielder and maybe even a short term CF to keep the seat warm for Felix Pie by as early as in mid-06 and certainly by '07."

.

 

 

Hoops

 

Hoops, did Gammons specifically name the two 300K players as Murton and Cedeno, or is it possible the two 300K players are Murton and Pie?

[LoneStarCubFan]

I don't like Murton and Cedeno in the same lineup unless we have good to great production from SS, RF, and CF.

 

Who would you prefer?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't like Murton and Cedeno in the same lineup unless we have good to great production from SS, RF, and CF.

 

Who would you prefer?

 

Between having either Murton or Cedeno? Murton.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't like Murton and Cedeno in the same lineup unless we have good to great production from SS, RF, and CF.

 

That sounds like a Dusty quote. Taking a chance and giving a few promising rookies in the lineup some playing time seemed to have worked out alright last year for Atlanta. The only difference is that the guys that we're suggesting to put in there hit over .300 in their first year in the majors, albeit in limited playing time.

 

I would feel more comfortable with both of them in the lineup if we had good to great production in those other positions, but I wouldn't say that I don't like having them both in there if we don't. If we don't have good to great production in those positions, it's likely we won't contend anyways, so why not give the kids some playing time and let them develop?

 

We don't have the Braves system. It's one thing to let the kids play when its April and all we've done is resigned Neifi and Burnitz. It's quite another thing to plan on two unknowns who don't have more than one year of great minor league production to start on an offense that was subpar to begin with, at the beginning of the offseason.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Does that mean we're going to trade Walker?

 

Getting an impact bat sounds good.

 

A. Jones talked to Furcal and said that he doesn't think Furcal will be back, as Atlanta won't pony up the doe.

 

Meat,

 

As I have said all along, the Cubs have been acting like they really don't Walker back for at least 2 months now. I don't know if it's his defense or his durability or some lingering clubhouse issue. I think Hendry picked up his option, so that he would have the option of trading him. And considering Walker will only make $2.5M in 2006, he is easily marketable.

They really seem to like Cedeno. If you read between the lines, he will be starting at 2B and batting 8th in 2006.

 

I told you Walker would get moved in September, and I told you the reason why, it's no secret--the Cubs brass don't like me-first players who blab about every little thing the first time they see a microphone. Walker is a fine hitter with a desirable contract, but his negatives in the Cubs' opinions--poor defense, no speed, not the "organizational" attitude--makes him expendable. Especially with Cedeno ready to play, Hairston available for backup, and needs at other positions.

 

The more interesting question is who do they trade Walker to, and for whom? From the beginning, I've felt they'll either deal Walker for a setup man for the bullpen (eg, Jesse Crain in Minnesota, or Rafael Betancourt in Cleveland), or in the most logical trade, send him to LA for Milton Bradley, straight up. The only problem with the latter is that there is no indication the Cubs are in the mood to put up with Bradley's histrionics, either.

 

So the call I'm making is Walker for a setup man.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Also, not that this person would necessarily know just what Jim Hendry has planned--in fact, I would guess not, it's more like informed speculation. But a casual conversation with a certain former very tall, redheaded Cubs Cy Young winner--and area resident--at a dinner reception suggested that the Cubs are done with both Nomar and Patterson. As is Hendry's norm, he'll put in a good word and do whatever he can to help Nomar find the "ideal job", as it was put, as the Cubs really do like Nomar's attitude. He's an "organizational fit", as it were. As for Patterson, the Cubs simply want him to show SOMETHING in winter ball to make him attractive to some team in a trade. Absent that, they'll release him before they pay his likely $2.5MM to $3MM in arbitration for 2006.

 

Just scuttlebutt.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

i would say 100+ steals in the top of the lineup would do wonders for lee & aram rbi wise.

 

How bout the 35 caught stealings that could come with that?

[rawaction]

I don't like Murton and Cedeno in the same lineup unless we have good to great production from SS, RF, and CF.

 

That sounds like a Dusty quote. Taking a chance and giving a few promising rookies in the lineup some playing time seemed to have worked out alright last year for Atlanta. The only difference is that the guys that we're suggesting to put in there hit over .300 in their first year in the majors, albeit in limited playing time.

 

I would feel more comfortable with both of them in the lineup if we had good to great production in those other positions, but I wouldn't say that I don't like having them both in there if we don't. If we don't have good to great production in those positions, it's likely we won't contend anyways, so why not give the kids some playing time and let them develop?

 

We don't have the Braves system. It's one thing to let the kids play when its April and all we've done is resigned Neifi and Burnitz. It's quite another thing to plan on two unknowns who don't have more than one year of great minor league production to start on an offense that was subpar to begin with, at the beginning of the offseason.

 

Exactly. And the Braves didn't even start the season with the kids. They went out and try to buy time with scrubs (Jordan and Mondesi, ugh!). The Cubs have more money to bide their time with better players. There will still be ABs for Cedeno. Even if you keep Walker and sign a SS, Ronny will get time in the MIF. If you re-sign Nomar, Ronny may get 130 starts. I'd love to get Ronny about 250-300 ABs this year, with 2 BETTER options playing most everyday. That will only make the Cubs and Cedeno better in the short and long-run.

[Jehrico]

Walker is a fine hitter with a desirable contract, but his negatives in the Cubs' opinions--poor defense, no speed, not the "organizational" attitude--makes him expendable.

 

He doesn't have an "organizational" attitude? Didn't he sign here for less than he could have gotten anywhere else to sit on the bench, when he could have started for other teams? Didn't he give Chicago a pretty good hometown discount (hence, the desirable contract you listed earlier) because he wanted to be part of this team? If that doesn't constitute an "organizational" attitude, I don't know what does. I think everyone blows his comments to the media waaaaay out of proportion.

[RynoRules]

Let Ronny play, please:

 

Furcal

Murton

Lee

ARam

Giles

Barret

CFer to be named (but not named CPatt)

Cedeno

[biittner77]

Remember Vince Coleman and Willie Mcgee during the Mid 80's.....I hated them but that was a team that made you nervous...pure speed

 

The difference being that McGee had more power than Furcal and Coleman knew how to steal bases without getting thrown out 45% of the time.

 

huh? furcal has far more power than mcgee. willie had 79 hr's in 7649 ab's while furcal has 45 in 2642 ab's. as far as sb's, furcal has been caught stealing 28% in his career while pierre is at 36% (30% in 05).

 

Ballparks were much bigger when McGee played. Back then if a guy hit 30 HRs it was a phenominal year. How do their career slg % stack up? that would probably tell a better story than HRs.

 

Sorry for guessing that Pierre gets thrown out 4 out of 10 tries when it should be 3.5 out of 10. SB % under 75% succesful really isn't worth it.

[badger1679666666]

I'm surpised I'm the first to comment/question on this but:

 

IIRC, didn't Walker have a face-to-face with Hendry and requested that if they were going to trade him, to just not pick up the option out of a gesture for him - considering he took well below market value to stay with the Cubs?

 

Hendry seems like the type of man to honor that committment/request. Especially with someone who talks as much as Walker. IT could very well affect other free agents coming to Chicago.

 

I could totally be wrong and on crack, but I thought this request/discussion took place between JH and T-Walk.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I'm surpised I'm the first to comment/question on this but:

 

IIRC, didn't Walker have a face-to-face with Hendry and requested that if they were going to trade him, to just not pick up the option out of a gesture for him - considering he took well below market value to stay with the Cubs?

 

Hendry seems like the type of man to honor that committment/request. Especially with someone who talks as much as Walker. IT could very well affect other free agents coming to Chicago.

 

I could totally be wrong and on crack, but I thought this request/discussion took place between JH and T-Walk.

 

That is true, but I also think, Hendry may allow---since he pick up the option---Walker to have a say where he wants to go. I didn't say Walker would have a final word, just a say as to where he would be interested in going. And I am assuming, that Walker will either want to play for Texas (since he ALMOST sign with them last yr) or simply a contender.

[CubsWin]

I'm surpised I'm the first to comment/question on this but:

 

IIRC, didn't Walker have a face-to-face with Hendry and requested that if they were going to trade him, to just not pick up the option out of a gesture for him - considering he took well below market value to stay with the Cubs?

 

Hendry seems like the type of man to honor that committment/request. Especially with someone who talks as much as Walker. IT could very well affect other free agents coming to Chicago.

 

I could totally be wrong and on crack, but I thought this request/discussion took place between JH and T-Walk.

 

That is true, but I also think, Hendry may allow---since he pick up the option---Walker to have a say where he wants to go. I didn't say Walker would have a final word, just a say as to where he would be interested in going. And I am assuming, that Walker will either want to play for Texas (since he ALMOST sign with them last yr) or simply a contender.

I don't think it was a face-to-face, badger.

 

I only recall there being a quote from Walker in the paper saying that he hoped or was confident that Hendry wouldn't pick up his option just to trade him away.

[AramisRamirez]

well i dont think hendry will trade todd walker. walker is a tough at-bat for opposing pictures. when he was with boston he was the hardest player in the AL to strike out. i think his defense isnt as much a liability as people think. i think walker in the lineup as our full-time 2B is completly fine. so i guess im one of the few who thinks/hopes walker is entirely fine in our lineup.

 

as far as hendry bringing in a marquee FA, i dont think that will happen either. our best bet is with furcal for many reasons (speed at the top of the lineup, defense, money situation, etc) i think the odds of us landing brian giles or AJ burnett is ultra-slim. i just cant see hendry paying either with a 5-year contract. if you notice the cubs front-office has been reluctant to sign 5 year deals. if burnett or giles do accept 4 years, ot still going to be

 

Burnett is just a pipe-dream. the cubs organization wont meet his price. its likely that boston or NY will offer alteast one more year to Burnett. i think Burnett could be 5-years/$50-$65M. for that price i really cant blame them for passing. Burnett is great but he's been injured alot and after kerry wood's failure to earn his huge contract i assume hendry is uneasy paying that much money for somebody who could easily end up hurt sitting alongside kerry wood on the bench.

 

Giles is just too old for hendry to throw down a 5-year deal. i think he'll end up wre-signing with the padres. should he accept a 4 year deal, i dont think we'll end up topping the annual salary enough.

 

so that brings us back to furcal, our best and most reasonable target. with him we'll need to over-pay, which is fine with me due to his age. he is probably in renteria territory with 4-years/$40M.

 

every off-season FA's sign contracts that are bloated, it happens constantly. look at JD drew's ridiculous salary despite historically being injured prone. so we need to allocate $10M a year fpr 4 years for furcal. i think its unlikely Atlanta would match that.

 

i agree that murton will start, but i think a furcal/walker doulbe-play combo is acceptable enough to bring cedeno off the bench.. actually they'd also do well batting leadoff and second, respectively. cedeno would be a great utility guy filling in for both furcal and walker. in my opinion furcal, walker, and cedeno would be a great trio.

 

as far as filling the RF position, i think we should consider nomar garciaparra to switch and

play it. sounds like a wierd idea, but he actually suggested it. i dont think nomar would be a terrible RF, though i dont think he'd be gunning runners out at home much. nomar's hitting ability would be nice in the lineup. anyways here is my reasonable opening day 2006 lineup.

 

SS furcal

2B walker

1B lee

3B ramirez

RF garciaparra

C barrett

LF murton

CF patterson (until pie is called up 2 months into the season)

 

SP1 zambrano

SP2 prior

SP3 wood (hurt during his first start after getting rocked)

SP4 greg's vesting option

SP5 rusch/williams

 

RP dempster

 

as usual, should nomar and kerry wood get hurt we will be a .500 team. you take away those 2 guys, which happens every year, we're plain and simple not a good team. at team with the cubs payroll cant play out the year with maddux, rusch, and jerome williams pitching 3rd, 4th, and 5th. that is way too weak. i think all three with have an ERA 4.00+ which isnt good enough to make a run. than you take away garciaparra's hitting ability and our batting order is too weak. we'd be right where we were last year with burnitz batting 5th (a terrible idea for a team trying to win a world series).

 

so in conclusion, the cubs will probably one sign one big contract with furcal or nobody else. the addition of furcal by himself wouldnt make us good enough to withstand losing nomar and wood.

 

dont get your hopes up. last year at this time we were saying hendry would sign beltran and edgar renteria. the Trib owns most of the big newspapers throughout the country and they can spin anything, including things yet to happen. with the beltran situation the Trib conviently leaked the cubs $75M offer. i dont think it would have been smart to increase the offer, but the point im making is the cubs let us all know that they made an offer. hendry knows beltran wouldnt accept $35M less so they made an offer to make them look bigger.

[David]

well i dont think hendry will trade todd walker. walker is a tough at-bat for opposing pictures. when he was with boston he was the hardest player in the AL to strike out. i think his defense isnt as much a liability as people think. i think walker in the lineup as our full-time 2B is completly fine. so i guess im one of the few who thinks/hopes walker is entirely fine in our lineup.

 

as far as hendry bringing in a marquee FA, i dont think that will happen either. our best bet is with furcal for many reasons (speed at the top of the lineup, defense, money situation, etc) i think the odds of us landing brian giles or AJ burnett is ultra-slim. i just cant see hendry paying either with a 5-year contract. if you notice the cubs front-office has been reluctant to sign 5 year deals. if burnett or giles do accept 4 years, ot still going to be

 

Burnett is just a pipe-dream. the cubs organization wont meet his price. its likely that boston or NY will offer alteast one more year to Burnett. i think Burnett could be 5-years/$50-$65M. for that price i really cant blame them for passing. Burnett is great but he's been injured alot and after kerry wood's failure to earn his huge contract i assume hendry is uneasy paying that much money for somebody who could easily end up hurt sitting alongside kerry wood on the bench.

 

Giles is just too old for hendry to throw down a 5-year deal. i think he'll end up wre-signing with the padres. should he accept a 4 year deal, i dont think we'll end up topping the annual salary enough.

 

so that brings us back to furcal, our best and most reasonable target. with him we'll need to over-pay, which is fine with me due to his age. he is probably in renteria territory with 4-years/$40M.

 

every off-season FA's sign contracts that are bloated, it happens constantly. look at JD drew's ridiculous salary despite historically being injured prone. so we need to allocate $10M a year fpr 4 years for furcal. i think its unlikely Atlanta would match that.

 

i agree that murton will start, but i think a furcal/walker doulbe-play combo is acceptable enough to bring cedeno off the bench.. actually they'd also do well batting leadoff and second, respectively. cedeno would be a great utility guy filling in for both furcal and walker. in my opinion furcal, walker, and cedeno would be a great trio.

 

as far as filling the RF position, i think we should consider nomar garciaparra to switch and

play it. sounds like a wierd idea, but he actually suggested it. i dont think nomar would be a terrible RF, though i dont think he'd be gunning runners out at home much. nomar's hitting ability would be nice in the lineup. anyways here is my reasonable opening day 2006 lineup.

 

SS furcal

2B walker

1B lee

3B ramirez

RF garciaparra

C barrett

LF murton

CF patterson (until pie is called up 2 months into the season)

 

SP1 zambrano

SP2 prior

SP3 wood (hurt during his first start after getting rocked)

SP4 greg's vesting option

SP5 rusch/williams

 

RP dempster

 

as usual, should nomar and kerry wood get hurt we will be a .500 team. you take away those 2 guys, which happens every year, we're plain and simple not a good team. at team with the cubs payroll cant play out the year with maddux, rusch, and jerome williams pitching 3rd, 4th, and 5th. that is way too weak. i think all three with have an ERA 4.00+ which isnt good enough to make a run. than you take away garciaparra's hitting ability and our batting order is too weak. we'd be right where we were last year with burnitz batting 5th (a terrible idea for a team trying to win a world series).

 

so in conclusion, the cubs will probably one sign one big contract with furcal or nobody else. the addition of furcal by himself wouldnt make us good enough to withstand losing nomar and wood.

 

dont get your hopes up. last year at this time we were saying hendry would sign beltran and edgar renteria. the Trib owns most of the big newspapers throughout the country and they can spin anything, including things yet to happen. with the beltran situation the Trib conviently leaked the cubs $75M offer. i dont think it would have been smart to increase the offer, but the point im making is the cubs let us all know that they made an offer. hendry knows beltran wouldnt accept $35M less so they made an offer to make them look bigger.

 

No offense, but my head hurts after reading this... :oops: :x

[Illini Iceman]

well i dont think hendry will trade todd walker. walker is a tough at-bat for opposing pictures. when he was with boston he was the hardest player in the AL to strike out. i think his defense isnt as much a liability as people think. i think walker in the lineup as our full-time 2B is completly fine. so i guess im one of the few who thinks/hopes walker is entirely fine in our lineup.

 

as far as hendry bringing in a marquee FA, i dont think that will happen either. our best bet is with furcal for many reasons (speed at the top of the lineup, defense, money situation, etc) i think the odds of us landing brian giles or AJ burnett is ultra-slim. i just cant see hendry paying either with a 5-year contract. if you notice the cubs front-office has been reluctant to sign 5 year deals. if burnett or giles do accept 4 years, ot still going to be

 

Burnett is just a pipe-dream. the cubs organization wont meet his price. its likely that boston or NY will offer alteast one more year to Burnett. i think Burnett could be 5-years/$50-$65M. for that price i really cant blame them for passing. Burnett is great but he's been injured alot and after kerry wood's failure to earn his huge contract i assume hendry is uneasy paying that much money for somebody who could easily end up hurt sitting alongside kerry wood on the bench.

 

Giles is just too old for hendry to throw down a 5-year deal. i think he'll end up wre-signing with the padres. should he accept a 4 year deal, i dont think we'll end up topping the annual salary enough.

 

so that brings us back to furcal, our best and most reasonable target. with him we'll need to over-pay, which is fine with me due to his age. he is probably in renteria territory with 4-years/$40M.

 

every off-season FA's sign contracts that are bloated, it happens constantly. look at JD drew's ridiculous salary despite historically being injured prone. so we need to allocate $10M a year fpr 4 years for furcal. i think its unlikely Atlanta would match that.

 

i agree that murton will start, but i think a furcal/walker doulbe-play combo is acceptable enough to bring cedeno off the bench.. actually they'd also do well batting leadoff and second, respectively. cedeno would be a great utility guy filling in for both furcal and walker. in my opinion furcal, walker, and cedeno would be a great trio.

 

as far as filling the RF position, i think we should consider nomar garciaparra to switch and

play it. sounds like a wierd idea, but he actually suggested it. i dont think nomar would be a terrible RF, though i dont think he'd be gunning runners out at home much. nomar's hitting ability would be nice in the lineup. anyways here is my reasonable opening day 2006 lineup.

 

SS furcal

2B walker

1B lee

3B ramirez

RF garciaparra

C barrett

LF murton

CF patterson (until pie is called up 2 months into the season)

 

SP1 zambrano

SP2 prior

SP3 wood (hurt during his first start after getting rocked)

SP4 greg's vesting option

SP5 rusch/williams

 

RP dempster

 

as usual, should nomar and kerry wood get hurt we will be a .500 team. you take away those 2 guys, which happens every year, we're plain and simple not a good team. at team with the cubs payroll cant play out the year with maddux, rusch, and jerome williams pitching 3rd, 4th, and 5th. that is way too weak. i think all three with have an ERA 4.00+ which isnt good enough to make a run. than you take away garciaparra's hitting ability and our batting order is too weak. we'd be right where we were last year with burnitz batting 5th (a terrible idea for a team trying to win a world series).

 

so in conclusion, the cubs will probably one sign one big contract with furcal or nobody else. the addition of furcal by himself wouldnt make us good enough to withstand losing nomar and wood.

 

dont get your hopes up. last year at this time we were saying hendry would sign beltran and edgar renteria. the Trib owns most of the big newspapers throughout the country and they can spin anything, including things yet to happen. with the beltran situation the Trib conviently leaked the cubs $75M offer. i dont think it would have been smart to increase the offer, but the point im making is the cubs let us all know that they made an offer. hendry knows beltran wouldnt accept $35M less so they made an offer to make them look bigger.

 

I agree with most of this but I don't think Hendry goes with Nomar in RF. IMO he is going to try to use Hill, Mitre or Williams plus CPatt and some minor league talent to upgrade RF. I still get the feeling that Kearns is high on his list but it might not be enough of an upgrade so he probably will try for someone bigger if he can find a willing trade partner. I get the feeling that Hendry will try to get a low cost temporary option for CF (e.g. - Lofton) because his previous comments seem to imply that he thinks that Pie is really close. If he can't move CPatt I don't see any way they release him. Even as a utility guy he has value so it would be a waste to just cut him loose.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Cedeno needs to start or ride out another year in AAA until management realizes walker/neifi at 2B isn't the answer. i think it's obvious to just about everyone other than Hendry and Baker that Neifi isn't anything more than a good bench player.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Ballparks were much bigger when McGee played. Back then if a guy hit 30 HRs it was a phenominal year. How do their career slg % stack up? that would probably tell a better story than HRs

.

 

 

McGee had a .396 slg% over the course of 18 yrs. Furcal has a .409 slg over the course of 6 yrs. Both are career SLG%. Neither have too much power, but I would say they are similar power wise.

 

 

Sorry for guessing that Pierre gets thrown out 4 out of 10 tries when it should be 3.5 out of 10. SB % under 75% succesful really isn't worth it.

 

Pierre has a career 267 to 96 (SB to CS ratio), very close to 3::1. Not dominate, by any stretch, but a solid ratios. Yes, Pierre was caugh 17 times in 2005, but consider he was caught 20 and 24 time the previous two yrs, I would say that was an improvement. Stealing bases is a SKILL. Right now Pierre is rely on his speed only, instead of a combination of speed/smart. You can't teach speed, but with the right coach, you can teacha guy with speed on how to use it properly.

[CubsWin]

Cedeno needs to start or ride out another year in AAA until management realizes walker/neifi at 2B isn't the answer. i think it's obvious to just about everyone other than Hendry and Baker that Neifi isn't anything more than a good bench player.

Baker, yes. Hendry, no. Hendry acquired Neifi to be exactly that, a bench player. Twice.

[USSoccer]

Cedeno needs to start or ride out another year in AAA until management realizes walker/neifi at 2B isn't the answer. i think it's obvious to just about everyone other than Hendry and Baker that Neifi isn't anything more than a good bench player.

Baker, yes. Hendry, no. Hendry acquired Neifi to be exactly that, a bench player. Twice.

 

 

So you'd think he'd learn his lesson. Would you rather have Cedeno as the backup SS or Neifi, at 10 times the cost?