Rumored trade proposal (Pierre to Cubs for Hill/Patterson)

[RynoRules]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

I would trade anyone in our minor league system for Dunn, but I'm pretty sure Hendry doesn't share my passion for Adam Dunn.

 

On the other hand, I'd do everything I could to hang on to Pie and interest the Reds in other players.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

[Magnetic Curses]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

 

please. you aren't honestly comparing the offensive production from sosa, alou, and lofton/cpat to lofton (years later), murton and dunn.

 

lmao. great comparison.

 

'05 dunn is roughly equal to '03 Sammy offensively, and '03 lofton was appreciably better than '06 lofton will be...so you're saying murton is far and away better than '03 alou offensively?

 

:lol:

 

oh, and '03 lofton with the cubs was a completely different player from the '03 pirates lofton.

 

w/ '03 cubs: .327/.381/.471 (56 games)

 

w/ '03 pirates: .277/.333/.437 (84 games)

Edited October 24, 2005 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[XZero771679666304]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

 

please. you aren't honestly comparing the offensive production from sosa, alou, and lofton/cpat to lofton (years later), murton and dunn.

 

lmao. great comparison.

 

'05 dunn is roughly equal to '03 Sammy offensively, and '03 lofton was appreciably better than '06 lofton will be...so you're saying murton is far and away better than '03 alou offensively?

 

:lol:

 

He was obviously referring to their defense and throwing arms, IMO.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

 

please. you aren't honestly comparing the offensive production from sosa, alou, and lofton/cpat to lofton (years later), murton and dunn.

 

lmao. great comparison.

 

'05 dunn is roughly equal to '03 Sammy offensively, and '03 lofton was appreciably better than '06 lofton will be...so you're saying murton is far and away better than '03 alou offensively?

 

:lol:

 

He was obviously referring to their defense and throwing arms, IMO.

 

no. he referred to being successful despite having crappy OF arms in '03. success comes from both defense and offense. '03 OF offensive production made up for the weak arms. that's what he's saying. by looking at the offensive production from that made up lineup (dunn, lofton, murton), it's easy to see the offensive production wouldn't be anywhere near the '03 OF, and therefore wouldn't make up for the runs given up due to crappy OF arms...and wouldn't be as successful as the '03 OF.

[CubinNY]

I disagree. With the OBP and SLG I think the outfield might be slighlty worse than 03 but not to the extent to which you seem to think. However, I think it would be hard to compare overall teams based on OF production alone.

[RynoRules]

I disagree. With the OBP and SLG I think the outfield might be slighlty worse than 03 but not to the extent to which you seem to think. However, I think it would be hard to compare overall teams based on OF production alone.

 

Exactly - With an OF of Dunn-Murton-Pierre plus an IF of Ramirez, Lee, Barrett, and Nomar / Walker / Cedeno / ? , the team's overall offensive performance is likely to be better than the 03' team when you consider who was in the IF that year (particularly C and 1B).

[CoolHandLuke]

alou only put up 280/357/462 with 22 homers in 03.

 

It wouldn't completely surprise me to see Murton put up a 280/350/450 next year, and that is not that much of a drop off from Alou's '03.

[Magnetic Curses]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

 

please. you aren't honestly comparing the offensive production from sosa, alou, and lofton/cpat to lofton (years later), murton and dunn.

 

lmao. great comparison.

 

'05 dunn is roughly equal to '03 Sammy offensively, and '03 lofton was appreciably better than '06 lofton will be...so you're saying murton is far and away better than '03 alou offensively?

 

:lol:

 

oh, and '03 lofton with the cubs was a completely different player from the '03 pirates lofton.

 

w/ '03 cubs: .327/.381/.471 (56 games)

 

w/ '03 pirates: .277/.333/.437 (84 games)

 

woah, somebody didn't get their juice at lunch i see.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

an outfield of suspect arms. super.

 

dunn has an average OF arm (no way does he have the gun for RF). murton and pierre both throw rainbows.

 

i love what dunn brings to the table offensively though and his range isn't horrible for his size. we just can't have an OF full of crappy arms.

 

we've done it before, re: 2003.

 

please. you aren't honestly comparing the offensive production from sosa, alou, and lofton/cpat to lofton (years later), murton and dunn.

 

lmao. great comparison.

 

'05 dunn is roughly equal to '03 Sammy offensively, and '03 lofton was appreciably better than '06 lofton will be...so you're saying murton is far and away better than '03 alou offensively?

 

:lol:

 

He was obviously referring to their defense and throwing arms, IMO.

 

no. he referred to being successful despite having crappy OF arms in '03. success comes from both defense and offense. '03 OF offensive production made up for the weak arms. that's what he's saying. by looking at the offensive production from that made up lineup (dunn, lofton, murton), it's easy to see the offensive production wouldn't be anywhere near the '03 OF, and therefore wouldn't make up for the runs given up due to crappy OF arms...and wouldn't be as successful as the '03 OF.

 

Our offensive production from the infield is much better than '03. Ramirez wasn't great in '03 after the terrible production before his arrival. The Choi/Karros/Simon platoon wasn't as good as Lee, and we'd be hard pressed to be worse than Gonzalez offensively.

 

Also, re: Dunn '05 v. Sosa '03, a 30 point OBP differential isn't a small thing.

[Magnetic Curses]

by the way, offensively, an infield of ramirez, nomar/furcal/cedeno, walker, lee, and barrett would completely make up for any drop-off in the outfield, a dropoff that probably doesn't even exist.

 

dunn's ops last year was 16 points higher than sammy's in 2003, alou put up a MONSTER .819 OPS in 2003, i can't see anyone eclipsing that mark to offensive dominance, ever. it's simply not physically possible for a player like murton to come close to that huge .819. wow, what a gigantic number alou threw up there--whew.

 

as for lofton, no one knows what he's going to do, but he'll likely have an OBP around .350, and that's good enough for me, considering the alternatives.

 

maybe you'd rather have corey and his superior arm and sub 3 OBP out there? he'd throw a lot of runners out at home, and the chemistry that that would create would completely make up for his complete incompetence at the plate, probably.

[mg420]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

if hendry wont give up hill for dunn, there is no way he even considers giving up pie for dunn. pie isnt going anywhere except back to west tenn next year.

[CubfaninCA]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

if hendry wont give up hill for dunn, there is no way he even considers giving up pie for dunn. pie isnt going anywhere except back to west tenn next year.

 

Hendry may have spun off his chair when he said that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pie dealt for someone like Soriano. This board will absolutely implode then.

[Mizzou]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

if hendry wont give up hill for dunn, there is no way he even considers giving up pie for dunn. pie isnt going anywhere except back to west tenn next year.

 

Hendry may have spun off his chair when he said that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pie dealt for someone like Soriano. This board will absolutely implode then.

 

And it should. If Hendry trades away talent to get Soriano when we already have control of Walker, it might be his worst move yet.

 

I agree that people put WAY too much stock into our prospects, but if Hendry dealt Pie for Sori, then there should be an enormous uproar.

[mg420]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

if hendry wont give up hill for dunn, there is no way he even considers giving up pie for dunn. pie isnt going anywhere except back to west tenn next year.

 

Hendry may have spun off his chair when he said that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pie dealt for someone like Soriano. This board will absolutely implode then.

 

i would be very suprised if pie were traded and very very disgusted if he were traded for soriano. i think lofton will be the stop gap signed for this year with a club option for next year to give pie more time to develop in aa/aaa.

[CubfaninCA]

I think the only way it makes sense to give up CPatt and Hill to get Pierre is if Pie is the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Adam Dunn. Thus, you have an OF of Pierre, Dunn and Murton, which I could definitely live with.

 

Could you? Would you deal Pie to get Dunn, assuming the validity of the Pierre deal?

 

I'm not up on what the Reds have but I thought they had a gluten of OF's and needed pitching.

 

Probably the case, but my point is would you be willing to deal Pie as part of a deal for Dunn that includes giving up at least one good pitching prospect, like a Nolasco.

 

if hendry wont give up hill for dunn, there is no way he even considers giving up pie for dunn. pie isnt going anywhere except back to west tenn next year.

 

Hendry may have spun off his chair when he said that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pie dealt for someone like Soriano. This board will absolutely implode then.

 

i would be very suprised if pie were traded and very very disgusted if he were traded for soriano. i think lofton will be the stop gap signed for this year with a club option for next year to give pie more time to develop in aa/aaa.

 

Sori seems like the type of guy Hendry overvalues, and he apparently went after him hard in July. Hendry's also the same guy who signed Burnitz, so anything's possible. I wouldn't mind Pie being traded, but I'd want a better player. Doubtful Cincy would deal Dunn tho.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

I only trade Pie if it brings a big-time impact player to Chicago (A-Rod, Miguel Cabrera), or if it involves a swap of top prospects.

 

For example, something like this: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa, JK Ryu and Felix Pie to Boston for Manny Ramirez and Hanley Ramirez. The Pie/Ramirez part of the equation is basically a swap of top prospects at positions the other team needs filled. Ramirez is blocked by Renteria in Boston, but he's ready to play; we need a SS to go with Ronny Cedeno at 2B. Pie would allow Boston to play him in CF, and with Manny's money gone, re-sign Damon and move him to LF.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure we'd be the first team in ML history to have three Ramirez' in the same starting lineup at the same time: Manny in LF, Aramis at 3B, and Hanley at SS. So that would be kind of cool. :-)

[mg420]

I only trade Pie if it brings a big-time impact player to Chicago (A-Rod, Miguel Cabrera), or if it involves a swap of top prospects.

 

For example, something like this: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa, JK Ryu and Felix Pie to Boston for Manny Ramirez and Hanley Ramirez. The Pie/Ramirez part of the equation is basically a swap of top prospects at positions the other team needs filled. Ramirez is blocked by Renteria in Boston, but he's ready to play; we need a SS to go with Ronny Cedeno at 2B. Pie would allow Boston to play him in CF, and with Manny's money gone, re-sign Damon and move him to LF.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure we'd be the first team in ML history to have three Ramirez' in the same starting lineup at the same time: Manny in LF, Aramis at 3B, and Hanley at SS. So that would be kind of cool. :-)

 

i would much rather see a future outfield of murton, pie & harvey. manny can hit but is a liability everywhere else. i see dh'ing as being in his near future. offense isnt everything. he probably had more production last year by himself that the whole white sox outfield but he is at home watching the sox getting ready to clinch. give me pitching & defense over an overwhelming offense any day.

[RynoRules]

I only trade Pie if it brings a big-time impact player to Chicago (A-Rod, Miguel Cabrera), or if it involves a swap of top prospects.

 

For example, something like this: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa, JK Ryu and Felix Pie to Boston for Manny Ramirez and Hanley Ramirez. The Pie/Ramirez part of the equation is basically a swap of top prospects at positions the other team needs filled. Ramirez is blocked by Renteria in Boston, but he's ready to play; we need a SS to go with Ronny Cedeno at 2B. Pie would allow Boston to play him in CF, and with Manny's money gone, re-sign Damon and move him to LF.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure we'd be the first team in ML history to have three Ramirez' in the same starting lineup at the same time: Manny in LF, Aramis at 3B, and Hanley at SS. So that would be kind of cool. :-)

 

That makes a lot of sense and is a good extension of initial point, which was that Pie should only be dealt for a true impact, corner OF.

 

And I agreed w/ Kess - woh. :wink:

[UBlink]

I only trade Pie if it brings a big-time impact player to Chicago (A-Rod, Miguel Cabrera), or if it involves a swap of top prospects.

 

For example, something like this: Jerome Williams, Roberto Novoa, JK Ryu and Felix Pie to Boston for Manny Ramirez and Hanley Ramirez. The Pie/Ramirez part of the equation is basically a swap of top prospects at positions the other team needs filled. Ramirez is blocked by Renteria in Boston, but he's ready to play; we need a SS to go with Ronny Cedeno at 2B. Pie would allow Boston to play him in CF, and with Manny's money gone, re-sign Damon and move him to LF.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure we'd be the first team in ML history to have three Ramirez' in the same starting lineup at the same time: Manny in LF, Aramis at 3B, and Hanley at SS. So that would be kind of cool. :-)

 

Last year the Rangers had 3 Young's start at the same time - Michael, Eric and Chris (the pitcher). Interestingly, they didn't put any extra identification on the uniforms - they weren't hard to tell apart.

[Backtobanks]

I think Pie is about as untouchable as Zambrano and Prior. I'm sure every GM is asking about Pie, but I think Hendry feels Pie is a future superstar and isn't going to trade him. As for Cabrera or Arod, I think those kinds of trades are only in our minds.