Rumored trade proposal (Pierre to Cubs for Hill/Patterson)

[XZero771679666304]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

And you could argue how much Pods and his piss poor SB percentage and average OBP actually helped his team. He didn't score a lot of runs, and he was caught stealing enough times to make his running a borderline liability.

 

But the media loves the idea of him leading an effective smallball attack that was in reality neither smallball nor particularly effective. Teams can get by with lowish OBP, but barely, and only if their pitching is consitently lights out.

 

There is no good reason why you would voluntarily sacrifice OBP for speed, unless the alternative was as slow as a sloth. Pierre's SB% is not good enough to sacrifice anything for, especially OBP. It just isn't.

 

You have to be on base to score runs.

[MPrior]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

[XZero771679666304]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

Hey, the media portrayed the Sox offense as smallball and Podsednik as a great leadoff hitter, so why let the facts get in the way?

[CUBZ99]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

How did Dusty get drug into the argument? Pierre would give Dusty a better option than Dusty had this year. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not make them a Dusty supporter or loyalist. I think you would find many people that would think having Pierre as the team's leadoff hitter is not a bad thing and IF Pierre's #'s were in line with his career avg.'s his OBP would be a big boost to the top of the lineup.

[CUBZ99]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

Hey, the media portrayed the Sox offense as smallball and Podsednik as a great leadoff hitter, so why let the facts get in the way?

 

Yes, because stats tell the whole story? ](*,)

[XZero771679666304]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

[CubfaninCA]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

I was just giving an example of baseball cw working out alright. Same goes for Furcal and Atlanta. The White Sox offense is nothing special, and Posednik doesn't have affect on all 9 hitters in the orders. He's a good sparkplug at the top of the order. He definitely helps them and makes them a better team.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

So throw out 100 years of managers putting their fastest players at the top of the order cause Luis Castillo doesn't tear it up when Pierre's on base??

 

As for your question, haven't we gotten burned enough w/ injury prone players? This team is full of woulda, coulda, shoulda, if only, players, and we shouldn't be surprised when they finish under .500.

 

You're the one saying that Pierre distracts pitchers. Where's the proof?

 

And again you've completely missed the point about injuries. Hairston when healthy is Pierre's equal, yet no one is looking at his production and sees "leadoff man extraordinaire, if only he could stay healthy".

 

100 years of baseball is the proof.

 

Hairston is not his equal even when throwing out reality and playing fantasy baseball. Pierre's ability to steal bases far surpasses Hairston.

 

Where? Do you have the data that shows a speedy hitter on base helps the number two hitter? I'd like to see that data for the last 100 years.

[XZero771679666304]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

Hey, the media portrayed the Sox offense as smallball and Podsednik as a great leadoff hitter, so why let the facts get in the way?

 

Yes, because stats tell the whole story? ](*,)

 

When they are overwhelming, yes.

 

Go look at Podsednik and the Sox's stats in smallball categories (OBP, SB, SB%, etc.), not good at all. It was a poor run scoring offense that got by because of stellar pitching, bottom line. In fact the only category the Sox offense was in the top half of the league in was HR.

 

Smallball, you say?

[AAApittsburgh]

Pitching!

 

Those teams did well because of there pitching. It wasn't Scott Podsednik, or Juan Pierre, or Tavarez, or Figgins. Lets say the WS pitching didn't overperform this year and they didn't make the playoffs, would you still be calling Podsednik a "sparkplug" ?

 

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

I was just giving an example of baseball cw working out alright. Same goes for Furcal and Atlanta. The White Sox offense is nothing special, and Posednik doesn't have affect on all 9 hitters in the orders. He's a good sparkplug at the top of the order. He definitely helps them and makes them a better team.

[CubfaninCA]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

 

What other better choices are there though? There isn't a long list of stellar leadoff men around. Just like there aren't a bunch of great right fielders around. I don't see how .355 is marginal either.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And even with all the arguments that have been made, it still boils down to that this would be a horrible trade.

 

Kenny Lofton (even old decrepit as he is) would be a better option than Pierre. Im not saying that Lofton is the best option, but to trade away players to get a player that will perform equal or worse than one you can sign as a FA for less money is a bad idea.

[Guest]

I'd like to see stats on how #2 hitters have performed with their leadoff men on base vs. how they've performed without them on base throughout the history of baseball (and, perhaps more pertinently, for the last few years as well). Does anyone know where we can find stats like that?

Retrosheet event files would be your best bet. The only problem I see is that the while the retrosheet format keeps track of the lineup position of the batter on each play, it doesn't keep track of the lineup position of any of the baserunners. (So using the event files by themselves it would be difficult to differentiate ABs where the #8 hitter was on second from ABs where the leadoff batter was on second, at least when you're trying to do it en masse.)

[E.J.]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

 

What other better choices are there though? There isn't a long list of stellar leadoff men around. Just like there aren't a bunch of great right fielders around. I don't see how .355 is marginal either.

 

How about looking at the top offenses this year like Boston and the Yankees who scored the most runs. What do they have in common? They both have very high OBP, the 2 highest in the Majors.

[CUBZ99]

Even if a guy like Pierre distracts the pitcher, the man at the plate also has to worry about hit and runs, or taking potentially hittable pitches if the runner is given the steal sign, or protecting the runner, etc.

 

At best, it's a wash.

 

And the "100 years of wisdom" is the same crap that motivated Dusty to bat Corey leadoff.

 

It motivated Ozzie Guillen to leadoff Posednik too.

 

I want to get away from the smart remarks here. No need for so much hostility.

 

Thus, in all seriousness, would you say the White Sox had a good offense this year? Or that the cause of their good season was their ability to score runs (which, Scotty Po would, no doubt, impact)...?

 

Hey, the media portrayed the Sox offense as smallball and Podsednik as a great leadoff hitter, so why let the facts get in the way?

 

Yes, because stats tell the whole story? ](*,)

 

When they are overwhelming, yes.

 

Go look at Podsednik and the Sox's stats in smallball categories (OBP, SB, SB%, etc.), not good at all. It was a poor run scoring offense that got by because of stellar pitching, bottom line. In fact the only category the Sox offense was in the top half of the league in was HR.

 

Smallball, you say?

 

.351 OBP is not good at all? or 59 SBs? Since you want to rely so heavily on his stats and CS's please list in detail under what game time situations they occurred. You must watch him alot to know that he is not a good small ball player. Did his CS come when there was nobody on and the WS were up by 5? or did they come when the game was on the line? Did he take chances at the right times?

[CUBZ99]

And even with all the arguments that have been made, it still boils down to that this would be a horrible trade.

 

Wow, thanks for being the final decision maker. :lol: I guess now we can stop arguing. :wink:

 

Kenny Lofton (even old decrepit as he is) would be a better option than Pierre. Im not saying that Lofton is the best option, but to trade away players to get a player that will perform equal or worse than one you can sign as a FA for less money is a bad idea.[/

 

Does Kenny Lofton want to come back to the Cubs? Seems to be a pretty big assumption on your part.

Edited October 24, 2005 by CUBZ99

[CubfaninCA]

So throw out 100 years of managers putting their fastest players at the top of the order cause Luis Castillo doesn't tear it up when Pierre's on base??

 

As for your question, haven't we gotten burned enough w/ injury prone players? This team is full of woulda, coulda, shoulda, if only, players, and we shouldn't be surprised when they finish under .500.

 

You're the one saying that Pierre distracts pitchers. Where's the proof?

 

And again you've completely missed the point about injuries. Hairston when healthy is Pierre's equal, yet no one is looking at his production and sees "leadoff man extraordinaire, if only he could stay healthy".

 

100 years of baseball is the proof.

 

Hairston is not his equal even when throwing out reality and playing fantasy baseball. Pierre's ability to steal bases far surpasses Hairston.

 

Where? Do you have the data that shows a speedy hitter on base helps the number two hitter? I'd like to see that data for the last 100 years.

 

You'd have to factor in the 3, 4 and possibly 5 hitter as well. Perhaps the data's not there cause Bill James couldn't produce anything that fits his premise?? Maybe Fred can put something together?

[AAApittsburgh]

And even with all the arguments that have been made, it still boils down to that this would be a horrible trade.

 

quote]

 

Wow, thanks for being the final decision maker. :lol:

 

Kenny Lofton (even old decrepit as he is) would be a better option than Pierre. Im not saying that Lofton is the best option, but to trade away players to get a player that will perform equal or worse than one you can sign as a FA for less money is a bad idea.[/

 

Does Kenny Lofton want to come back to the Cubs? Seems to be a pretty big assumption on your part.

The idea of getting Pierre is a big assumption as well.

Edited October 24, 2005 by AAApittsburgh

[CUBZ99]

And even with all the arguments that have been made, it still boils down to that this would be a horrible trade.

 

quote]

 

Wow, thanks for being the final decision maker. :lol:

 

Kenny Lofton (even old decrepit as he is) would be a better option than Pierre. Im not saying that Lofton is the best option, but to trade away players to get a player that will perform equal or worse than one you can sign as a FA for less money is a bad idea.[/

 

Does Kenny Lofton want to come back to the Cubs? Seems to be a pretty big assumption on your part.

The idea of getting Pierre is a big assumption as well.

 

and the topic of the thread.

[CubfaninCA]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

 

What other better choices are there though? There isn't a long list of stellar leadoff men around. Just like there aren't a bunch of great right fielders around. I don't see how .355 is marginal either.

 

How about looking at the top offenses this year like Boston and the Yankees who scored the most runs. What do they have in common? They both have very high OBP, the 2 highest in the Majors.

 

They also have the 2 biggest budgets in baseball, which pays for really good hitters, and Damon and JetAh are fast.

[XZero771679666304]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

 

What other better choices are there though? There isn't a long list of stellar leadoff men around. Just like there aren't a bunch of great right fielders around. I don't see how .355 is marginal either.

 

I'd rather have Furcal. Similar career OBP, more power, Furcal is faster, has a much better SB%, and plays better defense at his position.

 

If I am Jim Hendry, I am all over Furcal like white on rice this offseason.

 

Or try and trade for Luis Castillo. Or Sign Lofton for one year. I'd even rather sign Randy Winn.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And even with all the arguments that have been made, it still boils down to that this would be a horrible trade.

 

Wow, thanks for being the final decision maker. :lol: I guess now we can stop arguing. :wink:

 

Kenny Lofton (even old decrepit as he is) would be a better option than Pierre. Im not saying that Lofton is the best option, but to trade away players to get a player that will perform equal or worse than one you can sign as a FA for less money is a bad idea.[/

 

Does Kenny Lofton want to come back to the Cubs? Seems to be a pretty big assumption on your part.

 

Not any more than assuming that this is an actual trade proposal between the two teams.

 

Or any bigger of an assumption that speedy lead-off hitters help the number two hitter.

[E.J.]

Cmon man. YOu should be able to tell that I was saying that Pierre's a viable option even though his obp over the past 3 years and his career (.350-355) aren't stellar. He's viable cause he's really fast, and he gets on base at a good clip. Anaheim, CWS, Houston, St. Louis, Atlanta have done well w/out stellar obpers.

 

The bolded ones also happen to have pretty dismal offenses.

 

And Anaheim didn't have the pitching to maintain, and the Sox and Astros got stellar pitching performances in the postseason that allowed them to overcome their offenses.

 

You can get by with marginal OBP, but why would you want to if you have a choice?

 

What other better choices are there though? There isn't a long list of stellar leadoff men around. Just like there aren't a bunch of great right fielders around. I don't see how .355 is marginal either.

 

How about looking at the top offenses this year like Boston and the Yankees who scored the most runs. What do they have in common? They both have very high OBP, the 2 highest in the Majors.

 

They also have the 2 biggest budgets in baseball, which pays for really good hitters, and Damon and JetAh are fast.

 

Damon and Jeter had 18 and 14 stolen bases respectively. Not exactly burning up the base paths.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

So throw out 100 years of managers putting their fastest players at the top of the order cause Luis Castillo doesn't tear it up when Pierre's on base??

 

As for your question, haven't we gotten burned enough w/ injury prone players? This team is full of woulda, coulda, shoulda, if only, players, and we shouldn't be surprised when they finish under .500.

 

You're the one saying that Pierre distracts pitchers. Where's the proof?

 

And again you've completely missed the point about injuries. Hairston when healthy is Pierre's equal, yet no one is looking at his production and sees "leadoff man extraordinaire, if only he could stay healthy".

 

100 years of baseball is the proof.

 

Hairston is not his equal even when throwing out reality and playing fantasy baseball. Pierre's ability to steal bases far surpasses Hairston.

 

Where? Do you have the data that shows a speedy hitter on base helps the number two hitter? I'd like to see that data for the last 100 years.

 

You'd have to factor in the 3, 4 and possibly 5 hitter as well. Perhaps the data's not there cause Bill James couldn't produce anything that fits his premise?? Maybe Fred can put something together?

 

Before knocking James, at least he's done some research. Do you have any data to support your contention.

[CUBZ99]

I did some looking up of Pierre's stats in comparison with other NL leadoff hitters, to see how worthless he was. Ranked with players that had enough AB's to qualify.

 

OBP

 

2002 --- 2nd in the NL

2003 --- 1st in the NL

2004 --- 2nd in the NL

2005 --- 7th in the NL

 

 

Pierre has been top 1 or 2 leadoff hitter OBP (qualified) in the NL for 3 out of the last 4 years. That is not too bad.

 

from ESPN website.