Farnsworth

[CubfaninCA]

Mariano Rivera has choked away W.S. clinching saves in 2001, and ALCS clinching saves twice in 2004. Does this mean he's a bad reliever?

 

Eckersley gave up a home run to a gimped out, old, bad Kirk Gibson in a W.S. save situation. Is he bad?

 

Also, keep in mind that the Braves got hosed on 2 calls that inning, one of which was an inning ending DP that wasn't because supposedly Franco's foot came off the bag. One of those calls falls differently and Farns gets out of the 8th.

 

I know Farns rubbed people the wrong way because of some off the field issues, but stats show he was always very reliable until Baker/Baylor ran him into the ground, usually around July.

 

Did he have a 5 run lead?? This was Bartmanish.

[YearofDaCubs]

Not that is matters what we think of Farns anymore. The simple fact is chances are he will never be a Cub again. Even if he was we all know Dusty wouldn't use him the right way any way. What I would have liked to have seen when he was here is more Save opp, but we all know Hendry has a master plan to get us to the WS. :roll:

[USSoccer]

Mariano Rivera has choked away W.S. clinching saves in 2001, and ALCS clinching saves twice in 2004. Does this mean he's a bad reliever?

 

Eckersley gave up a home run to a gimped out, old, bad Kirk Gibson in a W.S. save situation. Is he bad?

 

Also, keep in mind that the Braves got hosed on 2 calls that inning, one of which was an inning ending DP that wasn't because supposedly Franco's foot came off the bag. One of those calls falls differently and Farns gets out of the 8th.

 

I know Farns rubbed people the wrong way because of some off the field issues, but stats show he was always very reliable until Baker/Baylor ran him into the ground, usually around July.

 

Did he have a 5 run lead?? This was Bartmanish.

 

2 of those runs weren't Farnsworth's fault, and as I pointed out, questionable calls cost Farns. Finally, the crap LF wall helped out Berkman's GS, as in any other park it would have been just a double.

[CubfaninCA]

The bottom line is that Farns wouldn't have done this w/ the Cubs. If Farns was the closer in 2003, the team woulnd't have made the playoffs and Bartman would still be living in Chicago.

 

The bottom line is the amount of hyperbole in this thread has been hilarious. You don't know what he would have done. Farns was a fantastic reliever for the Cubs in 03, and a big reason why they went anywhere.

 

The Farns myopia's funny as well.

 

So he wasn't fantastic in '03 and didn't play a major part in that year's success?

 

He had a very good year as a setup man in 03, but thinking he would have done what Dempster did in Chicago this year is myopic.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

The bottom line is that Farns wouldn't have done this w/ the Cubs. If Farns was the closer in 2003, the team woulnd't have made the playoffs and Bartman would still be living in Chicago.

 

The bottom line is the amount of hyperbole in this thread has been hilarious. You don't know what he would have done. Farns was a fantastic reliever for the Cubs in 03, and a big reason why they went anywhere.

 

The Farns myopia's funny as well.

 

So he wasn't fantastic in '03 and didn't play a major part in that year's success?

 

A lot of animosity remains based on how he performed in those playoffs. He had a wonderful regular season, but a lot of people remember him giving up a double off the wall with the wind howling in to Mike Mordecai in a 4-3 game.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Mariano Rivera has choked away W.S. clinching saves in 2001, and ALCS clinching saves twice in 2004. Does this mean he's a bad reliever?

 

Eckersley gave up a home run to a gimped out, old, bad Kirk Gibson in a W.S. save situation. Is he bad?

 

Also, keep in mind that the Braves got hosed on 2 calls that inning, one of which was an inning ending DP that wasn't because supposedly Franco's foot came off the bag. One of those calls falls differently and Farns gets out of the 8th.

 

I know Farns rubbed people the wrong way because of some off the field issues, but stats show he was always very reliable until Baker/Baylor ran him into the ground, usually around July.

 

I agree.

 

Farnsworth didn't lose that game. LaRoche and Devine did.

 

People who rag on Farns are seeing things. Not clutch? pfff. Show me his lines from all the games he blew and compare that to any other reliever.

 

Novoa is preferable to Farnsworth? hahahahaha Novoa is about at "clutch" as Hawkins was.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Here's a fun little exercise. Let's try and find a Cubs reliever better than Farnsworth. To save some time, this is not possible, not even the man we just gave 15 million dollars to be our closer.

 

How many saves did Farns have as a Cubs?? How many years was he in Chicago?? Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

He was better than Dempster was this year in '03. The whole "Farnsworth never lived up to his potential" thing is nonsense. He was and is a great reliever, but when he had a less than spectacular '04 and got hurt, people make up nonsense about him being an alcoholic or a headcase or stupid or whatever.

He was NOT better than Dempster this year so what are you talking about? Do not count the games that Demspter started.

 

Farnsworth '03

 

0.88 WHIP

10.85 K/9

2.56 K/BB

.196 BAA

.580 OPS against

 

Dempster '05 as a reliever

 

1.25 WHIP

8.17 K/9

1.96 K/BB

.218 BAA

.580 OPS against

 

Yes, Farnsworth was better.

 

Great fantasy baseball numbers, but he sure as heck chokes in the big games.

 

Yeah, it's not like I posted that his Close and Late numbers were almost mirrors of his regular season totals. Saying he chokes in big games is a ridiculous self-fulfilling prophesy.

[LoneStarCubFan]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

However, one look at his career postseason numbers will show that is he a gutless choking dog when you need him most.

[imb]

lol, what is that? 9 innings? hahahahhahaha

[USSoccer]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

However, one look at his career postseason numbers will show that is he a gutless choking dog when you need him most.

 

Sample.Size.

 

I could do that with Greg Maddux; He isn't all that great in October, does that diminish the pitcher he was?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

However, one look at his career postseason numbers will show that is he a gutless choking dog when you need him most.

 

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

 

Geez, did you even WATCH Farnsworth with the Cubs the last six years? Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was a gas can. There were way too many times he was the gas can to be worth sticking with him. I can think of a half-dozen times against the Cardinals alone that Farnsworth completely blew it. Couldn't throw strikes for the life of him. Then grooves a fastball that gets clubbed to death 450 feet.

 

Next.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

 

Geez, did you even WATCH Farnsworth with the Cubs the last six years? Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was a gas can. There were way too many times he was the gas can to be worth sticking with him. I can think of a half-dozen times against the Cardinals alone that Farnsworth completely blew it. Couldn't throw strikes for the life of him. Then grooves a fastball that gets clubbed to death 450 feet.

 

Next.

 

And I can think of 6 dozen times when he shut the door. The guy wasn't perfect, but he was a very good reliever. He's better than anything we have and we traded him away for peanuts. Why do people hate him so much, because his 2004 wasn't super good?

[Jehrico]

Here's a fun little exercise. Let's try and find a Cubs reliever better than Farnsworth. To save some time, this is not possible, not even the man we just gave 15 million dollars to be our closer.

 

So people rippin' apart Farnsy makes you a little annoyed huh?

 

A little bit, especially since we have no middle relief and traded him away for nothing.

 

BO "FRUITY NAME" FLOWERS AND ROBERTO NOVOA (MORE LIKE NOPITCHES) AND SCOTT "ID LIKE TO DO HIGH A SOME" MOORE

 

I'm not going to rate the trade as a good or bad one yet. Everyone rags on Novoa, forgetting he was a rookie. I bet he'll be a pretty damn good reliever in the next couple of years. Moore also had a great year in the minors. He was a highly regarded prospect at one point, he could turn it around and be a heckuva pickup, kind of like Murton was when he was a throw-in.

 

How did Bo Flowers do this year? I never heard anything about him.

[LetsPlayTwo]

I'd just like to pop in and say how this discussion is a clear example of tradition baseball wisdom vs. stats. I just think it's funny.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How did Bo Flowers do this year? I never heard anything about him.

 

Flowers was unremarkable, that's probably the best way to put it. He's a toolsy guy that didn't have good numbers prior to this year, and he didn't have a good year this year, nor was he horrid.

[YearofDaCubs]

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

 

Geez, did you even WATCH Farnsworth with the Cubs the last six years? Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was a gas can. There were way too many times he was the gas can to be worth sticking with him. I can think of a half-dozen times against the Cardinals alone that Farnsworth completely blew it. Couldn't throw strikes for the life of him. Then grooves a fastball that gets clubbed to death 450 feet.

 

Next.

 

And I can think of 6 dozen times when he shut the door. The guy wasn't perfect, but he was a very good reliever. He's better than anything we have and we traded him away for peanuts. Why do people hate him so much, because his 2004 wasn't super good?

Dempster is better.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Dempster is better.

 

Why are we comparing 2003 numbers with 2005? I was talking about 05 vs 05, but even so Farns whip in 03 was 1.17 according to yahoo with a era of 3.30. So I personally would rather take the lower ERA above the other stats.

 

I apologize, I read the wrong column calculating his WHIP and then got a bunch of critical errors before I had to leave. ERA for relievers isn't a great metric, their smaller number of IP can skew it, and ERA in general has a lot out of the pitcher's control.

 

But, if you want to compare 2005 v. 2005:

 

Farnsworth: 2.19 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 11.19 K/9, 3.22 K/BB, .180 BAA, .542 OPS Against

Dempster: 1.85 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 8.17 K/9, 1.96 K/BB, .218 BAA, .580 OPS Against

 

Outside of a small advantage in ERA(which has problems like I mentioned earlier), Farnsworth is clearly more effective, just as he was in '03.

 

I really don't see how he's any better, Farnsworth is clearly better across the board except for a small difference in a stat that he doesn't completely control. Too bad we can't isolate Dempster's dERA for just his relief work.

[YearofDaCubs]

Dempster is better.

 

Why are we comparing 2003 numbers with 2005? I was talking about 05 vs 05, but even so Farns whip in 03 was 1.17 according to yahoo with a era of 3.30. So I personally would rather take the lower ERA above the other stats.

 

I apologize, I read the wrong column calculating his WHIP and then got a bunch of critical errors before I had to leave. ERA for relievers isn't a great metric, their smaller number of IP can skew it, and ERA in general has a lot out of the pitcher's control.

 

But, if you want to compare 2005 v. 2005:

 

Farnsworth: 2.19 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 11.19 K/9, 3.22 K/BB, .180 BAA, .542 OPS Against

Dempster: 1.85 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 8.17 K/9, 1.96 K/BB, .218 BAA, .580 OPS Against

 

Outside of a small advantage in ERA(which has problems like I mentioned earlier), Farnsworth is clearly more effective, just as he was in '03.

 

I really don't see how he's any better, Farnsworth is clearly better across the board except for a small difference in a stat that he doesn't completely control. Too bad we can't isolate Dempster's dERA for just his relief work.

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

[RockTheIvy]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

 

Just out of curiosity (this is a dead-horse argument), which of Dempster's peripherals worry you?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

 

Just out of curiosity (this is a dead-horse argument), which of Dempster's peripherals worry you?

 

His walks.

[XZero771679666304]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

 

Just out of curiosity (this is a dead-horse argument), which of Dempster's peripherals worry you?

 

His walks.

 

Ryan is a bit wild, but as a reliever he averaged over two innings and about two strikeouts per walk, so it really isn't that alarming, IMO.

[RockTheIvy]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

 

Just out of curiosity (this is a dead-horse argument), which of Dempster's peripherals worry you?

 

His walks.

 

Yeah they trouble me as well. But his K rate helps to negate some of my worries about his control. I also like that he only allowed 1 HR in relief, getting lots of groundball outs. But, being a Cubs fan, I'm worried too. :roll: