Farnsworth

[Connor McConnor]

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

 

Geez, did you even WATCH Farnsworth with the Cubs the last six years? Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was a gas can. There were way too many times he was the gas can to be worth sticking with him. I can think of a half-dozen times against the Cardinals alone that Farnsworth completely blew it. Couldn't throw strikes for the life of him. Then grooves a fastball that gets clubbed to death 450 feet.

 

Next.

 

Agreed. I guess the games that I was watching were he was the pticher walking people and giving up hits in big games didnt happen.

 

How many times to pitchers get big moments in playoff games? Every time he has been needed to get BIG outs in playoffs games he has failed. Worse than that...he's given up a lot of runs and walks. What we saw yesterday was what we saw a lot with Farnsowrth. Or else he'd still be on the team. The stat I care about is WINS. Especially in playoff games. He failed. I could care less about the "off field" stuff. He killed us....OFTEN!

[CoolHandLuke]

All I know is that Dempster was 33/35. That's good enough for me. His ERA is lower and to me that means more than the other stats. Dempster was lights out. Granted Farnsworth was as well, but if I had a choice I woudl take Demp.

 

EDIT: Also, keep in mind Farns played for the Tigers and Braves who have a pitcher friendly stadium.

 

In 2000, Antonio Alfonseca was 45/49 in save opportunites. His peripherals indicated that he wasn't as good as his save numbers indicated. Those peripherals proved to be predictive.

 

In 2001, he was 28/44 and in 2002 he as 19/28. While I hope Dempster is as good as his 33/35 might lead some to believe, there is enough reason to be concerned.

 

Just out of curiosity (this is a dead-horse argument), which of Dempster's peripherals worry you?

 

His walks.

 

Yeah they trouble me as well. But his K rate helps to negate some of my worries about his control. I also like that he only allowed 1 HR in relief, getting lots of groundball outs. But, being a Cubs fan, I'm worried too. :roll:

 

The problem with that is his K rate was nothing all that special. Once he left the rotation he only K'd 8.18 batters per 9 innings. Compare that to some of the current elite closers:

 

K Rod 12.19/9

Lidge 12.09/9

Nathan 13.12

Ryan 12.80

Wagner 10.08

F. Cordero 10.30

Farnsworth 11.19

 

I want my closer to blow batters away like these guys. Dempster had an absolutely great year but he worries me for sure, especially since we are stuck with him for a while. Dempster just doesnt have the nasty stuff that a guy like Lidge or BJ Ryan has.[/i]

[CubfaninCA]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

If you read the thread, you'll see I go by more than one outing.

[badger1679666666]

Yeah, those 11 innings are truly an accurate measure of his clutchiness. Come on.

 

Geez, did you even WATCH Farnsworth with the Cubs the last six years? Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was a gas can. There were way too many times he was the gas can to be worth sticking with him. I can think of a half-dozen times against the Cardinals alone that Farnsworth completely blew it. Couldn't throw strikes for the life of him. Then grooves a fastball that gets clubbed to death 450 feet.

 

Next.

 

Agreed. I guess the games that I was watching were he was the pticher walking people and giving up hits in big games didnt happen.

 

How many times to pitchers get big moments in playoff games? Every time he has been needed to get BIG outs in playoffs games he has failed. Worse than that...he's given up a lot of runs and walks. What we saw yesterday was what we saw a lot with Farnsowrth. Or else he'd still be on the team. The stat I care about is WINS. Especially in playoff games. He failed. I could care less about the "off field" stuff. He killed us....OFTEN!

 

And helped us WAY MORE OFTEN. But people only remember the bad things. Speaking of myopia.

[badger1679666666]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

If you read the thread, you'll see I go by more than one outing.

 

If you actually did, and looked at his numbers as a whole, you can't really do anything but come to the conclusion that he would be the best reliever on the Cubs. Bar none. He had a bad 2004, and that's it.

[Satch80]

Farnsworth has dominant stuff except when he's not dominant. Basically, he's not predictable. Blowing a big lead in an elimination game is pretty uncloser like.

He has a lot to prove in high stakes situations before he should earn top closer $$.

Maybe he will get there, maybe he won't. I'm just glad we no longer have a front row seat.

[LoneStarCubFan]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

However, one look at his career postseason numbers will show that is he a gutless choking dog when you need him most.

 

Sample.Size.

 

I could do that with Greg Maddux; He isn't all that great in October, does that diminish the pitcher he was?

 

Greg Maddux is going into the Hall of Fame. Kyle Farnsworth is going into the Hall of Fame only if he buys a ticket. Advantage: Maddux.

 

You can run out all the stats you want. I've watched baseball for 30 years, I know a gutless choking dog when I see one. And Farnsworth is a gutless choking dog. He's Calvin Schraldi in tight pants.

[CubfaninCA]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

If you read the thread, you'll see I go by more than one outing.

 

If you actually did, and looked at his numbers as a whole, you can't really do anything but come to the conclusion that he would be the best reliever on the Cubs. Bar none. He had a bad 2004, and that's it.

 

What numbers prior to 2005 tell you he would have saved 33 out of 35 games w/ the Cubs this year?? Talk about spinning out of control. He needed a change of scenery. Baseball players aren't robots.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dude would have never got over the hump in Chicago. He wouldn't have came close to doing what Dempster did this year in a Cub uniform.

 

I guess then the question is... Why?

 

Head case. See yesterday and Mitch Williams for more.

 

Judging a pitcher on one outing and not the overall numbers is a very ridiculous thing to do.

 

However, one look at his career postseason numbers will show that is he a gutless choking dog when you need him most.

 

Sample.Size.

 

I could do that with Greg Maddux; He isn't all that great in October, does that diminish the pitcher he was?

 

Greg Maddux is going into the Hall of Fame. Kyle Farnsworth is going into the Hall of Fame only if he buys a ticket. Advantage: Maddux.

 

You can run out all the stats you want. I've watched baseball for 30 years, I know a gutless choking dog when I see one. And Farnsworth is a gutless choking dog. He's Calvin Schraldi in tight pants.

 

I've watched a lot of baseball too, and I've learned sometimes the eyes can be decieving. Hell, I saw one game where I was sure Tuffy Rhodes was a HOFer. Three homeruns....wow!

 

Farnsworth has his moments, but he's a hell of a pitcher and pitched better than anyone the Cubs had in the pen this year. Spin your meaningless metaphors all you want, they don't change the facts.

 

Also, had the umpire not blown the double play call at first, this whole argument would've been moot.

[CuseCubFan69]

IMO Farnsworth is a dominate pitcher when he has it going on....but, when things start to turn he gets rattled too easily and starts to break down.

[goonys evil twin]

IMO Farnsworth is a dominate pitcher when he has it going on....but, when things start to turn he gets rattled too easily and starts to break down.

 

He needs to be watched closely. He should never be used for more than an inning. He's very far from elite, and not even great. But if you use him right, you can get your money's worth and then some.

[CuseCubFan69]

IMO Farnsworth is a dominate pitcher when he has it going on....but, when things start to turn he gets rattled too easily and starts to break down.

 

He needs to be watched closely. He should never be used for more than an inning. He's very far from elite, and not even great. But if you use him right, you can get your money's worth and then some.

 

He is high maintinance high reward and you're right a good pitching coach will know how to handle him because he needs the guidance. When he is flustered he changes into another pitcher.

 

And great....absolutely not.

[badger1679666666]

You can run out all the stats you want. I've watched baseball for 30 years, I know a gutless choking dog when I see one. And Farnsworth is a gutless choking dog. He's Calvin Schraldi in tight pants.

 

You sure like name calling. You've done it all year. Do you even know what the word gutless means?

[LoneStarCubFan]

You can run out all the stats you want. I've watched baseball for 30 years, I know a gutless choking dog when I see one. And Farnsworth is a gutless choking dog. He's Calvin Schraldi in tight pants.

 

You sure like name calling. You've done it all year. Do you even know what the word gutless means?

 

Yes. It means Kyle Farnsworth.

[JC]

I always thought gutless meant being a coward. In contrast, Farnsworth was dominate this year when called on. Furthermore, he was lights out as a closer. Granted, he threw one bad pitch that will likely define his season. But, people that want to do that are short sighted.

 

The fact is, the Braves didn't lose because of Farnsworth. They still had their opportunities to win the game, but failed offensively on repeated occasions. Its like the Crucifxion of Bill Buckner. People skew things as they want to in order to support their point of find a scapegoat.

[oldcubsfan]

Which was the "one bad pitch" , the grandslam in the 8th or the 2 out homer in the 9th?

[JC]

Which was the "one bad pitch" , the grandslam in the 8th or the 2 out homer in the 9th?

 

Every pitcher is going to give up runs. Also, he shouldn't have been in there in the ninth. The granny was the most damaging, so that was what I was referencing.

 

But, if you want to paint him as a terrible pitcher because of this one outing, be my guest. You might as well include Prior and Wood in the same category for giving up leads late in playoff games in which their team lost.

[oldcubsfan]

If you want to paint him as a terrific pitcher, be my guest.

[LoneStarCubFan]

Which was the "one bad pitch" , the grandslam in the 8th or the 2 out homer in the 9th?

 

Every pitcher is going to give up runs. Also, he shouldn't have been in there in the ninth.

 

Last time I checked he was their closer, if he shouldn't be in there in the ninth, when should he be in there?

 

Answer: When the game is no longer in doubt. Like when you have a five-run lead.

 

oh wait...

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Also, just for fun:

 

Farnsworth in Close and Late Situations:

 

2005: .195/.257/.290/.547 line against in almost 200 PA's. (total numbers: .180/.267/.275/.542)

2004: .265/.346/.387/.733 in around 175 PA's. (total numbers: .260/.342/.426/.769)

2003: .218/.287/.347/.633 in around 115 PA's. (total numbers: .196/.285/.295/.580)

 

Looks to me like Farnsworth is pretty much the same pitcher as he is overall when the going gets tough.

[LoneStarCubFan]

Except, of course, when you absolutely positively need him to slam the door in a pressure situation. Then he's a gutless choking dog.

 

I'm sure those numbers are of great comfort to Braves fans everywhere.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Except, of course, when you absolutely positively need him to slam the door in a pressure situation. Then he's a gutless choking dog.

 

I'm sure those numbers are of great comfort to Braves fans everywhere.

 

Haha, completely unsubstantiated. People remember failures much more than successes. But whatever, continue your ridiculous, baseless bashing of Farnsworth.

[oldcubsfan]

Maybe the Dodgers will sign him. Gagne thinks DePo is an idiot and wants out. DePo seems to value many irrelevant numbers, he might love the Farns. Farnsworth will be available, the Braves are sure not going to pay big dollars for him.

[Connor McConnor]

Which was the "one bad pitch" , the grandslam in the 8th or the 2 out homer in the 9th?

 

Every pitcher is going to give up runs. Also, he shouldn't have been in there in the ninth. The granny was the most damaging, so that was what I was referencing.

 

But, if you want to paint him as a terrible pitcher because of this one outing, be my guest. You might as well include Prior and Wood in the same category for giving up leads late in playoff games in which their team lost.

 

The granny was most damaging? More damaging than the home run that TIED the game in the 9th with 2 outs (I believe?) Granted..you need one for the other to happen...but he had a lead after the grad slam...which he STILL couldnt hold. Do you notice a trend here? Not just hits.....but HOME RUNS WITH MEN ON BASE (usually that he has walked). Also...calling him a "bad pitcher" because of 1 game....1 game? Blowing leads in crucial situations is a consistent pattern with him. Even more damaging..he hasnt had any playoff success with which you can balance it out. Can anyone point to a playoff situation where he has made the difference in a positive way?

 

I really cannot fathom trying to defend a guy who has done nothing to deserve it. He just pitched the Braves right out of the playoffs. He had a huge lead....which he blew. He lost several games for us...including opening the floodgates when we were about an inning away from the world series.....and Cub fans want to throw stats around in his defense..as if he's really great if we would just forget the HORRIBLE results in playoff/must have situations.

 

He throws hard and will get a lot of strike outs. He's had good moments and..overall has had effective stretches....the stats reflect that. But it also cannot be denied that he has had several implosions at the absolute worst of times. When a playoff game has been on the line....he hasnt gotten the job done.

[Careless]

The granny was most damaging? More damaging than the home run that TIED the game in the 9th with 2 outs (I believe?)

4 is more than 2.