What the Cubs aren't: Is it me or do the Braves...

[Scott G. F.]

... piss you off by watching the wonderful, marvelous

rookies doing so well? I couldn't help but to see Murton hitting the

home run Brian McCann did yesterday.

 

What the hell are the Cubs doing to the young in there system? Why

are they retarding them?

 

Beginning with Kerry Wood and ending with Cedano. Is it, that all the

experts were wrong about the Cubs minor league system and over valued

every player?

 

Wood was suppost to be better then he has been,

What happened to:

Bobby Hill?

Jason Dubois?

Cory Patterson?

Meat'tray?

Choi?

And the list seems to be getting longer. (Pie?)

 

It just doesn't seem the Cubs organization knows what to do with raw

talent. No development plan pre and post Dusty Baker

 

This would be funny if I were wrong about this or being sarcastic but

the sad truth is I'm not and NSBB is quite because there

doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it. We're stuck with

great prospects rotting away in our lower systems, a manager that

only likes to play veterans, a managers that doesn't develop young

players, and a GM unwilling to trade the young prospects for anything!

 

It seems their trying to play both sides against the middle and it's

not working. Either trade the prospects for veterans or fire Dusty

Baker for a manager that can develop talent.

 

Watching the playoffs and seeing what winning teams do, makes what

the Cubs did wrong even more obvious. I wish they would learn. The

Cubs organization seems to believe that winning teams catch lighting

in a bottle and their success is based on luck! The Braves, Red Sox,

Yankees and Angeles are not in the playoffs year-in and year-out

because their lucky.

Edited October 7, 2005 by Scott G. F.

[UK1679666180]

Well, the Cubs don't have the same successful farm system as they did as recently as 2002'. I blame the lack of emphasis on international free agents from the Dominican Republic and Venezuela as well as the Pacific Rim.

 

Atlanta has better scouts, better instructors, better Latin America program, etc.. And once they get to the majors, they play for a manager with a different philosophy than the one on the Cubs.

 

Pie has been the last uber-prospect from the DR and Guzman has been the last from Venezuela, with Ryu being the last from the Pacific Rim.

[Scott G. F.]

Well, the Cubs don't have the same successful farm system as they did as recently as 2002'. I blame the lack of emphasis on international free agents from the Dominican Republic and Venezuela as well as the Pacific Rim.

 

Atlanta has better scouts, better instructors, better Latin America program, etc.. And once they get to the majors, they play for a manager with a different philosophy than the one on the Cubs.

 

Pie has been the last uber-prospect from the DR and Guzman has been the last from Venezuela, with Ryu being the last from the Pacific Rim.

 

You bring up a valid point, but they (The Cubs orgainzation) don't seem to really develop the talent in to a "baseball" player. Thay just crack them on the pan like an egg and expect them to make themsleves in to an omlette. It doesn't happen. No wonder everyone is down on Cory Patterson. He does have the ability to be a 5 tooled baseball player, but he's being developed by coaches and mentors that know maybe one or two tools and are stunting his development. It's also a 2 way street. Cory needs to develop his ability by going to winter baseball and trying new things. I'd rather Cory went to winter ball and had a horrible time trying new things, then not going and staying the same next year. The Cubs orgainization needs to put the pressure on the players and coaches to work harder and develop quality. It's just not getting done and I blame the orgainzation and Jim Hendry. The laid back, "they know how to do there job" attitude is killing this orgainzation from the inside out! You can see the results on the field!

[Brian]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

you don't have to have homegrown talent, but you do need to be able to recognize it. all this organization and its scouts do is dream. pie will be another cpat. no plate discipline is what we teach in our system. walks are overrated and strikeouts are the same as any other out. pfff

 

 

thank God Murton came from another system. he might actually succeed at the big league level.

 

i'll take plate discipline over the five tools any day.

[BigbadB]

you don't have to have homegrown talent, but you do need to be able to recognize it. all this organization and its scouts do is dream. pie will be another cpat. no plate discipline is what we teach in our system. walks are overrated and strikeouts are the same as any other out. pfff

 

 

thank God Murton came from another system. he might actually succeed at the big league level.

 

i'll take plate discipline over the five tools any day.

 

Pie is 20 years old. 20. Put 20 years old under a magnifying glass. 2 years out of high school for most. Sophomore's in college for others. Finishing up JUCO for others.

 

Do you honestly expect Pie to be completely refined at 20 years old?

 

We certainly don't have Atlanta's success. I sure wish we did. Bag on the weaknesses of our farm director's all you want, but please don't use Pie as the scapegoat for everything that is wrong.

 

And why must we always compare Pie to Patterson? They aren't twins. They aren't even from the same country. Assuming every guy with little plate patience will just be another Corey Patterson is ridiculous.

 

Some turn into Hall of Famers.

[rawaction]

I don't really fault the Cubs minor league instructors. I believe the Cubs have pretty decent instruction in the minors. I just feel that the instruction is misguided because of the organizational philosophy. The organization as a whole hasn't shown a true direction. They have repeatedly given free passes (no pun intended) to the more toolsy players, while players who put up numbers are never given a chance.

[CuseCubFan69]

I compare the Cubs to Baltimores organization. Decent minors but screwed up beliefs at the MLB level.

[frostwyrm]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

That is truly amazing. I can't help wondering what that lineup would look like if Dusty Baker had managed Atlanta for the last 10 years.

[BigbadB]

Scarily, the Braves don't have to stop there. They have many more home grown prospects where those came from.

[Scott G. F.]

I'm not judging Pie. I have never seen him play and classicaly rookies, when given a chance, develop there batting after being in the majors after a while.

 

The Cubs don't add rookies to the team and steady them for success. Baker expects them to fail where as Cox expects them to succeed. Baker is ready to pull the string on a rookie to quickly but when a veteran goes into a slump (aka Neifi) he's given the chance to work out of the slump to the determent of the team and deveolpment of the rookie player on the bench.

 

If they sign Baker to an extention. Trade Pie and sign Damon. Because Pie will not be given a chance!

[cubbieinexile]

I think the Cubs just are not getting good positional youngsters. Even the ones that leave the Cubs don't amount to much. Once Dallas Green stopped having a say the positional prospects and talent dried up and fast. Grace and Palmeiro are the last prospects to turn into anything other then mud. Both were drafted in the mid-80's.

[Scott G. F.]

I think the Cubs just are not getting good positional youngsters. Even the ones that leave the Cubs don't amount to much. Once Dallas Green stopped having a say the positional prospects and talent dried up and fast. Grace and Palmeiro are the last prospects to turn into anything other then mud. Both were drafted in the mid-80's.

 

 

What? Shawn Dunston. Jeromy Walton, and anyone trying to play 3b.

 

Why can we find a Fat Albert Pooh Holes?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

you don't have to have homegrown talent, but you do need to be able to recognize it. all this organization and its scouts do is dream. pie will be another cpat. no plate discipline is what we teach in our system. walks are overrated and strikeouts are the same as any other out. pfff

 

 

thank God Murton came from another system. he might actually succeed at the big league level.

 

i'll take plate discipline over the five tools any day.

 

Pie is 20 years old. 20. Put 20 years old under a magnifying glass. 2 years out of high school for most. Sophomore's in college for others. Finishing up JUCO for others.

 

Do you honestly expect Pie to be completely refined at 20 years old?

 

We certainly don't have Atlanta's success. I sure wish we did. Bag on the weaknesses of our farm director's all you want, but please don't use Pie as the scapegoat for everything that is wrong.

 

And why must we always compare Pie to Patterson? They aren't twins. They aren't even from the same country. Assuming every guy with little plate patience will just be another Corey Patterson is ridiculous.

 

Some turn into Hall of Famers.

 

When did I use Pie as a scapegoat? I simply mentioned him as an example of what this organization does wrong. Dispatch sentimentality for a moment and tell me how Pie's stats justifies the hype. He's a free swinger, like many of the people from his neck of the woods. They're taught from a young age to swing for the fences...basically to ignore plate discipline.

 

We may yet luck out with one of these "talented" individuals eventually (Montanez, Pie, CPat, others), but it isn't likely. I'm not saying it won't happen some day, just that the odds of it happening are very low.

 

Some of these talented individuals make it to the Hall of Fame? How many failed? What's the success rate? It isn't good.

 

Do I expect Pie to be "refined" at his age? You don't learn plate discipline at this stage in the game. You can develop power, but you're not going to suddenly see the ball better.

[Scott G. F.]

you don't have to have homegrown talent, but you do need to be able to recognize it. all this organization and its scouts do is dream. pie will be another cpat. no plate discipline is what we teach in our system. walks are overrated and strikeouts are the same as any other out. pfff

 

 

thank God Murton came from another system. he might actually succeed at the big league level.

 

i'll take plate discipline over the five tools any day.

 

Pie is 20 years old. 20. Put 20 years old under a magnifying glass. 2 years out of high school for most. Sophomore's in college for others. Finishing up JUCO for others.

 

Do you honestly expect Pie to be completely refined at 20 years old?

 

We certainly don't have Atlanta's success. I sure wish we did. Bag on the weaknesses of our farm director's all you want, but please don't use Pie as the scapegoat for everything that is wrong.

 

And why must we always compare Pie to Patterson? They aren't twins. They aren't even from the same country. Assuming every guy with little plate patience will just be another Corey Patterson is ridiculous.

 

Some turn into Hall of Famers.

 

When did I use Pie as a scapegoat? I simply mentioned him as an example of what this organization does wrong. Dispatch sentimentality for a moment and tell me how Pie's stats justifies the hype. He's a free swinger, like many of the people from his neck of the woods. They're taught from a young age to swing for the fences...basically to ignore plate discipline.

 

We may yet luck out with one of these "talented" individuals eventually (Montanez, Pie, CPat, others), but it isn't likely. I'm not saying it won't happen some day, just that the odds of it happening are very low.

 

Some of these talented individuals make it to the Hall of Fame? How many failed? What's the success rate? It isn't good.

 

Do I expect Pie to be "refined" at his age? You don't learn plate discipline at this stage in the game. You can develop power, but you're not going to suddenly see the ball better.

 

 

The orgainization's mantra is

Don't clog the bases with runner

Swing for the fences and see what happens

OBP is overrated

Allow your young prospect to fail at the big league and then trash them in the media as an uncoachable wank.

 

I bet Pie can't wait to come to the big team. Our starting SS Neifi needs a towel boy.

[TB_11]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

That is truly amazing. I can't help wondering what that lineup would look like if Dusty Baker had managed Atlanta for the last 10 years.

 

Oh that's easy:

 

P - Steve Avery

C - Damon Berryhill

1B - Sid Bream

2B - Mark Lemke

SS - Jeff Blauser

3B - Terry Pendleton

LF - Ron Gant

CF - Otis Nixon

RF - Hank Aaron

[frostwyrm]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

That is truly amazing. I can't help wondering what that lineup would look like if Dusty Baker had managed Atlanta for the last 10 years.

 

Oh that's easy:

 

P - Steve Avery

C - Damon Berryhill

1B - Sid Bream

2B - Mark Lemke

SS - Jeff Blauser

3B - Terry Pendleton

LF - Ron Gant

CF - Otis Nixon

RF - Hank Aaron

 

No Julio Franco?

[dalgreen]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

That is truly amazing. I can't help wondering what that lineup would look like if Dusty Baker had managed Atlanta for the last 10 years.

 

I think you guys are giving our homegrown talent too much credit. Who have we had that is on the same talent level as the ones listed above for the Braves? I think we've gotten our great minor league system shoved down our throats for so long that we just believed it. Shouldn't Kelton and Jackson be ready by now (I know about Jackson's injuries--- but you get my point)? And, I'm already down on Harvey. It says something when Murton, who's not a product of ours, is one of our best prospects already.

[Derwood]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

In fairness, the Braves started out with Jordan and Mondesi in the OF, Perez at Catcher, Franco at 1st.....it wasn't like they planned on this being their post season lineup. It just turned out that way.

[Scott G. F.]

I think this speaks for itself... look at last nights lineup

 

P - Smoltz (traded for as a prospect)

C - McCann (homegrown)

1B - Laroche (homegrown)

2B - Giles (homegrown)

3B - Jones (homegrown)

SS - Furcal (homegrown)

LF - Langerhans (homegrown)

CF - Jones (homegrown)

RF - Francouer (homegrown)

 

Every single player in the starting lineup has played every single inning of their major league career as a Brave. incredible.

 

That is truly amazing. I can't help wondering what that lineup would look like if Dusty Baker had managed Atlanta for the last 10 years.

 

I think you guys are giving our homegrown talent too much credit. Who have we had that is on the same talent level as the ones listed above for the Braves? I think we've gotten our great minor league system shoved down our throats for so long that we just believed it. Shouldn't Kelton and Jackson be ready by now (I know about Jackson's injuries--- but you get my point)? And, I'm already down on Harvey. It says something when Murton, who's not a product of ours, is one of our best prospects already.

 

Nicly said dalgreen. I forgot about Kelton and Jacskon. They already fell of the radar!

[Brian]

In fairness, the Braves started out with Jordan and Mondesi in the OF, Perez at Catcher, Franco at 1st.....it wasn't like they planned on this being their post season lineup. It just turned out that way.

 

Yeah but when things didn't work out they moved on, and made the postseason mostly do to these guys. And these are the players that beat Clemens.

 

It's just the fact that they can field a team completly of players from their system. Not many teams can do that... and have it be a playoff game winning team is just remarkable.

[Scott G. F.]

In fairness, the Braves started out with Jordan and Mondesi in the OF, Perez at Catcher, Franco at 1st.....it wasn't like they planned on this being their post season lineup. It just turned out that way.

 

Yeah but when things didn't work out they moved on, and made the postseason mostly do to these guys. And these are the players that beat Clemens.

 

It's just the fact that they can field a team completly of players from their system. Not many teams can do that... and have it be a playoff game winning team is just remarkable.

 

They make it seem easy and make our favorite club look bumbling and incompetent. Especially our leadership!

[Outshined_One]

It says something when Murton, who's not a product of ours, is one of our best prospects already.

 

If anything, I think this is a testament to how well Jim Hendry and scouting recognize talent in a young player. Most people saw Murton as an after-thought in the Nomar deal, yet somehow he's managed to blossom into one of the best young players with the Cubs today.

 

Want more examples? The Kyle Farnsworth deal got the Cubs one decent reliever with a nice upside (Novoa), a third baseman who broke out this year (Moore), and an intriguing young guy down in Low A (Flowers). Shipping Matt Lawton to the Yankees got the Cubs a guy who has one of the best GB/FB ratios in the system (Berg). I could also point to the Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee trades as an example of seeing a young player with a lot of talent.

 

So, to put this into perspective, I do think this organization has people in it who are able to spot these players. When it comes to homegrown players, I think a combination of things have to be taken into account:

 

1) Injuries are always crippling. They have caused major setbacks for the following players, among others: Chad Blasko, Billy Petrick, JK Ryu, Angel Guzman, Nic Jackson, Mark Reed, Brandon Sing, Sean Marshall, Aaron Krawiec, Bobby Brownlie, and Luke Hagerty. These guys would be so much more highly regarded if they were healthy. Unfortunately, these things happen in all systems. It's just been rather bad for the Cubs recently, from what I have seen.

 

2) The visa crackdown. This one especially hurt last year, as memory serves me. Now that things have finally been worked out, the Cubs can finally bring over a lot of the guys they've been trying to get in through the Dominican Republic, among other places.

 

3) I have to wonder how the Cubs psychologically evaluate players. Given the struggles of some of their guys as they approach the higher levels of the systems, I'm curious as to whether it's because of the nature of baseball or if it's something in some guy's heads. I don't know how the Cubs do things at this level, so I'd like to hear an answer as to what they do.

 

4) You have to admit, the farm system has churned out some really good pitching. We've seen these guys produce really well (Wood, Prior, Zambrano) at various times and levels. Other guys have the potential to become effective in the near future (Hill, Wellemeyer, Wuertz, Leicester, Mitre, Ohman) in various capacities and have produced in the major leagues. Yes, I know it's trendy to trash these guys for whatever reason, but the bottom line remains that they are young players with a heck of a lot more upside than most other pitching prospects out there.

 

Once the Cubs get a manager who's willing to actually coach and who actually knows how to use a bullpen, I think we'll be looking at our farm system with much better eyes.

[Bergy92]

It says something when Murton, who's not a product of ours, is one of our best prospects already.

 

If anything, I think this is a testament to how well Jim Hendry and scouting recognize talent in a young player. Most people saw Murton as an after-thought in the Nomar deal, yet somehow he's managed to blossom into one of the best young players with the Cubs today.

 

Want more examples? The Kyle Farnsworth deal got the Cubs one decent reliever with a nice upside (Novoa), a third baseman who broke out this year (Moore), and an intriguing young guy down in Low A (Flowers). Shipping Matt Lawton to the Yankees got the Cubs a guy who has one of the best GB/FB ratios in the system (Berg). I could also point to the Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee trades as an example of seeing a young player with a lot of talent.

 

So, to put this into perspective, I do think this organization has people in it who are able to spot these players. When it comes to homegrown players, I think a combination of things have to be taken into account:

 

1) Injuries are always crippling. They have caused major setbacks for the following players, among others: Chad Blasko, Billy Petrick, JK Ryu, Angel Guzman, Nic Jackson, Mark Reed, Brandon Sing, Sean Marshall, Aaron Krawiec, Bobby Brownlie, and Luke Hagerty. These guys would be so much more highly regarded if they were healthy. Unfortunately, these things happen in all systems. It's just been rather bad for the Cubs recently, from what I have seen.

 

2) The visa crackdown. This one especially hurt last year, as memory serves me. Now that things have finally been worked out, the Cubs can finally bring over a lot of the guys they've been trying to get in through the Dominican Republic, among other places.

 

3) I have to wonder how the Cubs psychologically evaluate players. Given the struggles of some of their guys as they approach the higher levels of the systems, I'm curious as to whether it's because of the nature of baseball or if it's something in some guy's heads. I don't know how the Cubs do things at this level, so I'd like to hear an answer as to what they do.

 

4) You have to admit, the farm system has churned out some really good pitching. We've seen these guys produce really well (Wood, Prior, Zambrano) at various times and levels. Other guys have the potential to become effective in the near future (Hill, Wellemeyer, Wuertz, Leicester, Mitre, Ohman) in various capacities and have produced in the major leagues. Yes, I know it's trendy to trash these guys for whatever reason, but the bottom line remains that they are young players with a heck of a lot more upside than most other pitching prospects out there.

 

Once the Cubs get a manager who's willing to actually coach and who actually knows how to use a bullpen, I think we'll be looking at our farm system with much better eyes.

 

I could also point to the Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee trades as an example of seeing a young player with a lot of talent.

 

so you mean like....Dontrelle?

[Andy]

It says something when Murton, who's not a product of ours, is one of our best prospects already.

 

If anything, I think this is a testament to how well Jim Hendry and scouting recognize talent in a young player. Most people saw Murton as an after-thought in the Nomar deal, yet somehow he's managed to blossom into one of the best young players with the Cubs today.

 

Want more examples? The Kyle Farnsworth deal got the Cubs one decent reliever with a nice upside (Novoa), a third baseman who broke out this year (Moore), and an intriguing young guy down in Low A (Flowers). Shipping Matt Lawton to the Yankees got the Cubs a guy who has one of the best GB/FB ratios in the system (Berg). I could also point to the Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee trades as an example of seeing a young player with a lot of talent.

 

So, to put this into perspective, I do think this organization has people in it who are able to spot these players. When it comes to homegrown players, I think a combination of things have to be taken into account:

 

1) Injuries are always crippling. They have caused major setbacks for the following players, among others: Chad Blasko, Billy Petrick, JK Ryu, Angel Guzman, Nic Jackson, Mark Reed, Brandon Sing, Sean Marshall, Aaron Krawiec, Bobby Brownlie, and Luke Hagerty. These guys would be so much more highly regarded if they were healthy. Unfortunately, these things happen in all systems. It's just been rather bad for the Cubs recently, from what I have seen.

 

2) The visa crackdown. This one especially hurt last year, as memory serves me. Now that things have finally been worked out, the Cubs can finally bring over a lot of the guys they've been trying to get in through the Dominican Republic, among other places.

 

3) I have to wonder how the Cubs psychologically evaluate players. Given the struggles of some of their guys as they approach the higher levels of the systems, I'm curious as to whether it's because of the nature of baseball or if it's something in some guy's heads. I don't know how the Cubs do things at this level, so I'd like to hear an answer as to what they do.

 

4) You have to admit, the farm system has churned out some really good pitching. We've seen these guys produce really well (Wood, Prior, Zambrano) at various times and levels. Other guys have the potential to become effective in the near future (Hill, Wellemeyer, Wuertz, Leicester, Mitre, Ohman) in various capacities and have produced in the major leagues. Yes, I know it's trendy to trash these guys for whatever reason, but the bottom line remains that they are young players with a heck of a lot more upside than most other pitching prospects out there.

 

Once the Cubs get a manager who's willing to actually coach and who actually knows how to use a bullpen, I think we'll be looking at our farm system with much better eyes.

 

I could also point to the Aramis Ramirez and Derrek Lee trades as an example of seeing a young player with a lot of talent.

 

so you mean like....Dontrelle?

 

Dontrelle was shipped out for Matt Clement and Alfonseca and not for Lee. And he was largely a fluke incident. If I have the choice of trading a 6th-round pick for three years of solid pitching like Clement gave us, I will do it more often than not. And that windup is going to result in a really ugly injury for Willis someday. You can mark it down.