Regarding Hendry

[nilodnayr]

why are the cubs so worried about "rushing" players? andrew & chipper jones, m giles & furcal all came up to play full time when they were 21-24 years old. if murton, cedeno, ep & pie show they are ready at 23-24, why not throw them in and see how they do? there will be some growing pains but most players go through that when they start in the majors regardless of age. i would rather see a group of young, exciting & hungry players learn how to win and make some mistakes than a group of overpaid veterens go through the motions and worry more about their contract than how many wins the team has.

 

Well, Corey Patterson was rushed and look what it did for him. Having two managers who were complete morons in Baylor and Baker didn't do him any favors either, though.

 

i dont think corey was rushed. he did better a few years ago when he first came up than he has done the past few years. his unwillingness to learn the strike zone, not swing at unittable pitches (especially high fastballs) and not try to hit a home run every ab has been his downfall imo. i agree about baker & baylor not helping matters. i wonder what he could have been (will be) for a team like the braves or the nationals. it amazes me that guys like the farns are head cases in chicago and go on to dominate for other teams. i guess there is a reason why the braves have won the division 14 years in a row but i wish the cubs could find some of that mojo with their young players.

 

You can't just simply look at one half of 2003 and say "well, he's done ok since he's been up."

 

No. He hasn't. Take away half of 2003 and he's been a dissapointment no matter how you look at it.

 

He should have learned that strike zone in the minors. He should have had that "you can hit 40 home runs" mentality taken from him in the minors. He should have stood for hours at the plate taking BP, getting a fine every time he swung at an eye-high fastball. He didn't. He was simply not ready for the majors and they brought him up anyway.

 

I agree with you when you say Murton and Cedeno are ready. They are. Pie isn't and we dont want him to turn into Corey 2.0.

 

i agree that corey has been a dissapointment but his 03 & 04 seasons were decent. the talent is there but either he is too stubborn or he hasn't gotten the coaching he needed in the majors. looking at his minor leage stats i guess he was rushed to the majors. i didnt remember he only had 2 full seasons before getting called up. i also agree that pie isnt ready yet but if he tears up AA next year why not give him a shot in 07? same with with ep.

 

 

Well numbers really only tell part of the story. We know from Coreys and Pies approach that they werent/arent ready, despite production. Corey was groomed as a power hitter in the minors and then expected to lead off in the majors that was the big blunder by the cubs. Felix has the same walk rate as corey, he definitely needs some more development

[BigbadB]

I don't think you can simply state that Corey was brought up to the majors to be a lead off hitter. They have tried him out all over the place.

 

I can't see the numbers for 2000 or 2001, but in 2002, Corey had nearly an equal amount of at bats at lead off, #2 and #6 in the order. He didn't excel in any of those spots, sporting poor OBP's and poor OPS's.

 

In 2003, Corey's dominant positions in the batting order prior to his season ending injury was in the #3 spot and the #6 spot. Not so productive as a #3 hitter, but improvement in the 6 slot.

 

In 2004, he had more lead off at bats than in any other slot, followed closely by the #2 slot and then 116 at bats in the 7 slot. He had great numbers in the 7 slot, but average to below average in the top two slots.

 

In 2005, he had the most at bats once again in the lead off spot, but a proportionately equal amount in just about all of the other 7 slots in the order (excluding the pitcher's slot). As we all know, he was bad as a lead off hitter, although not much worse than Neifi Perez.

 

Dusty Baker has this illusion that speedy guys or guys who have no clue how to draw a walk should be rewarded by having their name called by the PA announcer before any other Cub hitter in the first inning of a baseball game.

 

I do not know many other people who have this same philosophy when it comes to assembling the line up card. Typically, someone with this philosophy has poor results which costs them their job after a short period of time.

 

I can't prove it, but I believe only Dusty Baker really thought Corey should lead off. I believe this because I also happen to believe that only Dusty Baker believes Neifi Perez should be leading off. Same idiotic thought process, same results.

 

I don't think Corey likes batting 7th or 8th in the line up. Given the choice of batting 1st or 7th or 8th, I think he preferred hitting lead off, therefore the suggestion to Baker that he give leading off a try once again. I believe Corey's preference would be 3rd-5th, but the results haven't been good enough to put him there and leave him there. Corey's plate discipline would never allow me to put him in the heart of the batting order, and Dusty apparently agrees with that philosophy. That's about all we agree on.

 

Anyway, looking over Corey's career, the Cubs probably preferred Corey to be a Rickey Henderson type lead off hitter and realistically, Corey is nothing like Rickey Henderson. They possess the same type of speed and the same kind of power, but after that, the comparisons end. Corey doesn't have plate discipline or plate patience. He is a pull hitter. To me, the biggest strikes against the argument of whether someone is capable of leading off is plate discipline and the ability to use the entire field.

 

It was wrong to try to convert Corey into a lead off hitter. But, the Cubs are not guilty of strictly attempting to make him a lead off hitter. I think it was the lack of having a lead off hitter that made them decide it was worth an attempt to find Corey's niche, which was preferably at the top of the order. It didn't work. But, neither does batting Neifi Perez there, either.

 

Management is pulling down their pants and showing everyone their true ability to assemble a line up. Corey is just a victim of this poor judgment by management.

 

I also think Corey is a victim of not being left alone to try to develop into the player Corey should be. At this point, I don't think he even knows what kind of player he was supposed to develop into.

[BigbadB]

I will also add that Corey was rushed too quickly to the majors. He may not have been considered rushed if the right type of management was in charge of the team, but Baylor jerked Corey around and wasted valuable time of his development sitting on the Cubs bench day after day.

 

If when the Cubs brought him up, they inserted him into the line up and left him alone out there and let him play everyday, we might have a totally different ballplayer in Corey Patterson.

 

Instead, Corey got a start here, sat for a week and got a pinch hit at bat. While he was sitting on the bench, future hall of famers Damon Buford and Gary Matthews Jr. got the bulk of the playing time in centerfield.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't think you can simply state that Corey was brought up to the majors to be a lead off hitter. They have tried him out all over the place.

 

I also think Corey is a victim of not being left alone to try to develop into the player Corey should be. At this point, I don't think he even knows what kind of player he was supposed to develop into.

 

It all goes back to the day he was drafted. They repeatedly said despite his size, speed and position (and to an extent, his skin), people shouldn't stereotype him as a leadoff hitter, that he was not a leadoff hitter, would not be a leadoff hitter, and they drafted him to be a guy who drives in runs. He was a 3 hitter in the minors. He was brought up to become a 3 or 5 hitter. He should have started as a 6/7 hitter. It was management's inability to stick to a plan that probably did it's most damage.

 

(and while I do believe Corey was somewhat victimized by misuse, I do acknowledge he played a major role in his own demise)

[BigbadB]

(and while I do believe Corey was somewhat victimized by misuse, I do acknowledge he played a major role in his own demise)

 

And I agree with this. You have to take advantage of your opportunity to play and prove that you belong out there. You have to adapt to strengthen your weaknesses so that your weakness isn't exposed to the point it outweighs your production, therefore rendering you as replaceable.

 

I agree that he played a major role in this. It saddens me that he wasn't the answer to our long time centerfield problems. I really hoped he was and I hope he eventually gets it figured out. Preferably as a Cub.

[nilodnayr]

I don't think you can simply state that Corey was brought up to the majors to be a lead off hitter. They have tried him out all over the place.

 

I can't see the numbers for 2000 or 2001, but in 2002, Corey had nearly an equal amount of at bats at lead off, #2 and #6 in the order. He didn't excel in any of those spots, sporting poor OBP's and poor OPS's.

 

 

I can't prove it, but I believe only Dusty Baker really thought Corey should lead off.

 

I think Don Baylor (ok maybe not Baylor, but some one on the cubs before Dusty) thought Corey could lead off, as evidenced by those 2002 splits. About half of his 2001 ABs were in the 1 or 2 hole.

[NoDak]

Like most fans on this board, apparently, I put more of the blame on Dusty than on Hendry. Consistently batting Neifi Perez at the top of the order along with a dabbling of CoPat is/was inexcusable.

 

Also, I wonder how much effect KW first ST game had on his season. He threw somethingl like 120-130 pitches. He was injured most of spring trainning and then Dusty decided that doing that would be a "good idea."

 

While I am not always thrilled with Hendry's moves, he rarely gets completely fleeced like some GMs.

[CubfaninCA]

In my mind, this is the year to really evaluate Hendry. Last year he was hamstrung by Sosa's contract and wondering if he was going to be able to trade Sosa or not. He also had the Ramirez signing hanging over his head. The club was full of major questionmarks (the bullpen, Patterson, the bench, Hollandsworth, etc.) and there were few established prospects to maneuver with.

 

This year Hendry has all the latitude in the world. He's got a lot of money to spend with the departure of Sosa, Hawkins, Remlinger, etc., he has legitimate prospects to trade for some A rated players if he wants to part with Cedeno, Hill, Murton, Williams, Mitre, etc., the only major signing he has to deal with is Dempster (who's contract should be managable), and, I think, he's got a much better idea of the capabilities of his club. If he messes up this off season, then I think it will be time to look for a new GM. My guess is he'll get the job done.

 

I look for Hendry to get a leadoff man (Furcal), a lefty for the bullpen to supplement Ohman, and possibly one outfielder to play either left or right (I think Murton will be the 4th outfielder). If Maddux doesn't come back he'll also get a starting pitcher. He should be able to put the whole team together for well under $100 million in total salary, which will give him plenty of room to maneuver at the trade deadline.

 

Yep pass judgement next year. This was a transition year. Their superstar, Sosa, was done and they had to eat about $15 million. Basically, they started the season w/ a budget that was 9th or 10th in baseball.

 

The moves to question Hendry on are the signings of Maddux and Nomar, which tied up a considerable amount of money. Perhaps things would have turned out differently this season if that money had been put into Jeff Kent or Bartolo Colon. Of course, the Trib has never signed anyone to a deal that lasts longer than 4 year, so Colon was probably never considered.

 

Altogether, if Prior and Wood are 100% for once, the Cubs will win 90+ next year.

[JC]

Transition year? This was a transition year only due to Hendry's making. You don't increase payroll in a so-called transition year. The moves made by Hendry, in his mind, were designed to compete this year. Lets not make it sound like he didn't have resources to work with.

 

-He devalued Sosa, in part, due to his handling of the situation.

-He re-signed Macias (with a raise)

-He failed to replace Alou's production

-He was content to replace Sosa with a favorite of his, Jeromy Burnitz

-He failed to assert his will of Dempster closing from the outset

-His Sisco gamble was a complete failure

-His handling of the 40 man roster was questionable

-He failed to shore up the bench

-He failed to shore up the bullpen (for the second straight year)

 

And that was just his offseason! Hendry has had a less then spectacular run just since October 04. I don't understand how he gets a pass for a "transition" year when the payroll (which he controls) continues to rest around $100M.

[CubfaninCA]

Transition year? This was a transition year only due to Hendry's making. You don't increase payroll in a so-called transition year. The moves made by Hendry, in his mind, were designed to compete this year. Lets not make it sound like he didn't have resources to work with.

 

-He devalued Sosa, in part, due to his handling of the situation.

-He re-signed Macias (with a raise)

-He failed to replace Alou's production

-He was content to replace Sosa with a favorite of his, Jeromy Burnitz

-He failed to assert his will of Dempster closing from the outset

-His Sisco gamble was a complete failure

-His handling of the 40 man roster was questionable

-He failed to shore up the bench

-He failed to shore up the bullpen (for the second straight year)

 

And that was just his offseason! Hendry has had a less then spectacular run just since October 04. I don't understand how he gets a pass for a "transition" year when the payroll (which he controls) continues to rest around $100M.

 

The signing of Burnitz sukked, but the pen has been alright for the past few months. He roll of the dice w/ Nomar didn't work. Did you want someone besides Nomar?? If Patterson comes through, the season is different too.

 

I'm not going to hammer Hendry for the combined failures of Wood, Patterson and Nomar, and Prior's so-so season. Perhaps he should have dealt Patterson and Wood for something before they completely flopped this year?? Lots of woulda, coulda, shouldas... If anyone was proposing trading Wood & Patterson last offseason, and the signing of Pedro Martinez, then they should be considered the smartest people on this board.

 

If this team's .500 next year, then I'll rip Hendry.

[CubfaninCA]

oops :shock:

[MPrior]

It may well be that Corey also failed not because he was rushed, but because he just doesn't have it. Of course I can't prove that. But neither can it be proved that Corey's failure is in any way caused by his rate of advancement. We'll never know for sure.

 

But there are other guys who are rushed along who continue to make adjustments and improve even after reaching the majors, who find out that fanning at high fastballs is counterproductive, so they get the negative reinforcement and are able to improve following adjustment. That Corey has been unable to do so may be less about the rush than about Corey's ability.

 

Good post. I've been thinking this for a while. That Corey's inability to adjust has little to do with stubborness or poor coaching, and lots to do with the fact that he just can't do it, has been my opinion for a while.

 

In Moneyball (don't hate me because I'm referencing it), they point out that the least teachable aspect of hitting is plate discipline, and that's why the A's didn't draft toolsy players who hadn't demonstrated plate discipline. Perhaps Corey just doesn't even have the capacity to develop plate discipline. Do you think he continues to swing at all those high fastballs because he thinks "maybe I can hit this one," or simply because he cannot distinguish between a high fastball and a pitch in the zone? I think it's the latter.

 

Secondly, his success early on might have been because opposing pitchers assumed that they would have to pitch to him as if he were actually a capable hitter. Then they discovered that they never had to throw a pitch anywhere even close to the strike zone.

[CuseCubFan69]

Has Hendry ever went out and got the most desired players available? I don't think he has as he has a sit back and watch things develop type of GM IMO. He watches and sees what other teams do and then goes after their excess or mistakes. I do not see him making a major trade early or signing any major free agents until the dust (no pun intended) settles and then he looks for a bargin. I also don't see him looking for gems on other teams that have been overlooked. He seems to like the players that had over hyped potential and haven't lived up to it yet. He will not take a chance on Giles and Furcel will be out of the price range...I hope.

[gflore34]

Has Hendry ever went out and got the most desired players available? I don't think he has as he has a sit back and watch things develop type of GM IMO. He watches and sees what other teams do and then goes after their excess or mistakes. I do not see him making a major trade early or signing any major free agents until the dust (no pun intended) settles and then he looks for a bargin. I also don't see him looking for gems on other teams that have been overlooked. He seems to like the players that had over hyped potential and haven't lived up to it yet. He will not take a chance on Giles and Furcel will be out of the price range...I hope.

 

I believe Furcal may be a legitimate target, as for Giles, no chance at all. Why in the World would Giles, a West Coast native, leave it now that he's finally playing there?

[gflore34]

After this season if Hendry doesn't address this team' lack of OBP, he'll surely be painted by the Media and Fans as completely lacking in baseball knowledge.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Has Hendry ever went out and got the most desired players available? I don't think he has as he has a sit back and watch things develop type of GM IMO. He watches and sees what other teams do and then goes after their excess or mistakes. I do not see him making a major trade early or signing any major free agents until the dust (no pun intended) settles and then he looks for a bargin. I also don't see him looking for gems on other teams that have been overlooked. He seems to like the players that had over hyped potential and haven't lived up to it yet. He will not take a chance on Giles and Furcel will be out of the price range...I hope.

 

While Hendry may not have always gotten the "big fish" per se, he seems to do well in getting the players he is known to have targeted. Prior to 2003, it was known he was looking for bullpen help and he signed Remlinger who was the hottest commodity there. After the 2003 season, he targeted and signed Hawkins. While those two signings didn't really pan out, they were the needs that Hendry had zeroed in on. I think if he sets his mind to a task, he's likely to pursue it.

 

Of course in some ways, that frightens me. It could mean that we severely overpay for Furcal if that's the direction Hendry thinks we should go.

[neely crenshaw]

yeah, he targeted set up men(and got them) when we needed a closer. genius!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

yeah, he targeted set up men(and got them) when we needed a closer. genius!

 

Following the 2003 season, we were in no need of a closer. Borowski had been performing fine in the role.

 

Of course, he should have been calirivoyant (sp?) and realized Joe would get hurt and lose velocity. :roll:

[Tim]

I think a big part of why Hendry hasn't targeted the top free agents so far is that he never had an opening at the position played by the top FA. And he wasn't creative enough to move an Alou and sign a Vlad. Or move an AGon to sign a Tejada.

[JC]

I think a big part of why Hendry hasn't targeted the top free agents so far is that he never had an opening at the position played by the top FA. And he wasn't creative enough to move an Alou and sign a Vlad. Or move an AGon to sign a Tejada.

 

I'm glad I read the whole post.

 

I really wish I had some confidence in his creativity, but I have none.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think a big part of why Hendry hasn't targeted the top free agents so far is that he never had an opening at the position played by the top FA. And he wasn't creative enough to move an Alou and sign a Vlad. Or move an AGon to sign a Tejada.

 

I believe this is an excellent point. This offseason will be very telling. For the first time, the Cubs have obvious openings in the same positions that could be filled by top free agents. The only time this has occurred in the past could have been Pudge and the Cubs opening at catcher.

 

My belief and fear is that Hendry will target and sign Furcal. I'm hoping he moves in another direction, however.

[Tim]

I think a big part of why Hendry hasn't targeted the top free agents so far is that he never had an opening at the position played by the top FA. And he wasn't creative enough to move an Alou and sign a Vlad. Or move an AGon to sign a Tejada.

 

I believe this is an excellent point. This offseason will be very telling. For the first time, the Cubs have obvious openings in the same positions that could be filled by top free agents. The only time this has occurred in the past could have been Pudge and the Cubs opening at catcher.

 

My belief and fear is that Hendry will target and sign Furcal. I'm hoping he moves in another direction, however.

I'm okay with a Furcal signing (definitely not my preference, but I'm okay with it) as long as it's the second move he makes after signing Giles. Giles alone makes this offense top 5 in the NL.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm okay with a Furcal signing (definitely not my preference, but I'm okay with it) as long as it's the second move he makes after signing Giles. Giles alone makes this offense top 5 in the NL.

 

The reason I am not okay with a Furcal signing is because I know there is no possible way that would be the secondary move. That would be paraded around as the "put us over the top" move, filling leadoff and SS, and the OF would be filled by scraps.

[rawaction]

I'm okay with a Furcal signing (definitely not my preference, but I'm okay with it) as long as it's the second move he makes after signing Giles. Giles alone makes this offense top 5 in the NL.

 

The reason I am not okay with a Furcal signing is because I know there is no possible way that would be the secondary move. That would be paraded around as the "put us over the top" move, filling leadoff and SS, and the OF would be filled by scraps.

 

Does Preston Wilson count as a secondary move?

[gflore34]

I'm okay with a Furcal signing (definitely not my preference, but I'm okay with it) as long as it's the second move he makes after signing Giles. Giles alone makes this offense top 5 in the NL.

 

The reason I am not okay with a Furcal signing is because I know there is no possible way that would be the secondary move. That would be paraded around as the "put us over the top" move, filling leadoff and SS, and the OF would be filled by scraps.

 

Does Preston Wilson count as a secondary move?

 

I hope not, Preston Wilson is polar opposite of what this team needs, if Hendry can't see this he's denser than we all thought.