Time to give props to David Eckstein!

[indifferent]

This guy was dubbed the worst free agent signing by Stark in the offseason. Stats be damned (although they're very good). And all midget jokes aside.

 

This guy is 3rd on our team in RBIs from the leadoff position. He hits .350 with RISP. He hustles on every play, he's the 2nd hardest guy to strike out in the majors, he's out there every day, he very rarely muffs routine play (see Edgar Renteria, 27 errors leading the majors). He belongs on the Cards and is thriving here.

 

Not to mention he is 6.5 mil cheaper than Renteria and 3.5 mil cheaper than O. Cabrera.

 

I'll take Eck all day long.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

This guy was dubbed the worst free agent signing by Stark in the offseason. Stats be damned (although they're very good). And all midget jokes aside.

 

This guy is 3rd on our team in RBIs from the leadoff position. He hits .350 with RISP. He hustles on every play, he's the 2nd hardest guy to strike out in the majors, he's out there every day, he very rarely muffs routine play (see Edgar Renteria, 27 errors leading the majors). He belongs on the Cards and is thriving here.

 

Not to mention he is 6.5 mil cheaper than Renteria and 3.5 mil cheaper than O. Cabrera.

 

I'll take Eck all day long.

 

I think Jim Edmonds already has.

[TruffleShuffle]

This guy was dubbed the worst free agent signing by Stark in the offseason.

 

Eckstein isn't great, but Stark was way off in that. Paying $3M per year for a shortstop who can get on base 34% of the time is not a bad investment. If you really want a bad SS signing, how about Cristian Guzman and his .303 OBP coming into this season for $4M per year?

[indifferent]

This guy was dubbed the worst free agent signing by Stark in the offseason.

 

Eckstein isn't great, but Stark was way off in that. Paying $3M per year for a shortstop who can get on base 34% of the time is not a bad investment. If you really want a bad SS signing, how about Cristian Guzman and his .303 OBP coming into this season for $4M per year?

 

Guzman is the least productive player in the majors save one guy since 1900 per Hardball Times.

 

Eckstein has been better than Renteria and Cabrera this year with money taken completely out of the equation. Not only is Eck better, but he is better suited for the Cards in need of a lead off batter. People look at his short stature = smaller range and rainbow arm, but it hasn't perpetuated itself in results this year. Sure the plays are closer at first this year, but he still gets the outs. He seems to have an uncanny knack for timing; he know his arm. I will give you that he doesn't get to some balls in the hole that some SS get to, but he is also more reliable than the "thoroughbred" SS most regard highly.

 

Truffle, I'm glad you responded as you are always noting how lucky the Cards are. What can we attribute to this luck considering it's now been two years and every player we've signed from other teams has outperformed?

[TruffleShuffle]

Eckstein has been better than Renteria and Cabrera this year with money taken completely out of the equation. Not only is Eck better, but he is better suited for the Cards in need of a lead off batter.

 

I don't really agree that he's better than those guys... Renteria is better than Eckstein, unless you ignore the rest of their careers and focus on this year only. Cabrera's numbers are very close to Eckstein's, which makes the contract that Cabrera got from the Angels even more stunning. What a brutal move by the Angels, in all honesty.

 

Truffle, I'm glad you responded as you are always noting how lucky the Cards are. What can we attribute to this luck considering it's now been two years and every player we've signed from other teams has outperformed?

 

Not every player has... but many have. Womack last year, Nunez this year, Carpenter, Tavarez, there has been luck involved. But I think Jocketty has been very good at finding players (mainly veterans) who are undervalued in the free agent market. Sanders at $3M per year was a bargain. So was Grudz at $1M this year, and Suppan at around $3M, and even Eckstein at $3M is a bargain when you consider that other FA shortstops like Renteria and Cabrera got 3 times as much money. I've been saying this all along... the Cards' domination of the NL Central the last 2 years has been a combination of good management and good luck People just forget that I acknowledge the first part of that.

[indifferent]

Who have we signed in the last two years that has underperformed for us? OK, I just remembered Cedeno, but he doesn't count because he was good for us last year and we cut him this year as soon as we wised up to his horrid performance.

 

I already qualified Eckstein's season by specifying this year. When those guys, especially Renteria, perform as they're capable next year and Eckstein is his career average self I will keep reminding myself what a deal he was this year.

 

I am not enamored with our players, I'm just trying to figure out how it happened.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think Eckstein will be the next Mr. Clutch himself....Neifi Perez.

[Chief_Cardinal]

I think the difference with Eck this year is that he has been given more days off....He seems to have hot streaks each year and then wears completly down by the end of the year. So I think the way that TLR has used him by giving him more days off thorughout the season has help make him seem to be a better player this year.

[PujolsPower]

I'm not sure that Eck is getting that many more days off this year. He projects to get 628 ABs this year, while his previous high was 608.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'm not sure that Eck is getting that many more days off this year. He projects to get 628 ABs this year, while his previous high was 608.

 

Also, he's played in every game except 3 this year.

[Chief_Cardinal]

I'm not sure that Eck is getting that many more days off this year. He projects to get 628 ABs this year, while his previous high was 608.

 

Also, he's played in every game except 3 this year.

 

Yes but that means that he probably got a lot of pinch hitting appearances in those games. Early in the season he was getting lots of games off (at least not starting). That slowed down with the Rolen injury, and Nunez being used at 3rd a lot.

 

So I guess the worry needs to be is he going to wear down as the playoffs begin.

[gflore34]

Eckstein has been better than Renteria and Cabrera this year with money taken completely out of the equation. Not only is Eck better, but he is better suited for the Cards in need of a lead off batter.

 

I don't really agree that he's better than those guys... Renteria is better than Eckstein, unless you ignore the rest of their careers and focus on this year only. Cabrera's numbers are very close to Eckstein's, which makes the contract that Cabrera got from the Angels even more stunning. What a brutal move by the Angels, in all honesty.

 

Truffle, I'm glad you responded as you are always noting how lucky the Cards are. What can we attribute to this luck considering it's now been two years and every player we've signed from other teams has outperformed?

 

Not every player has... but many have. Womack last year, Nunez this year, Carpenter, Tavarez, there has been luck involved. But I think Jocketty has been very good at finding players (mainly veterans) who are undervalued in the free agent market. Sanders at $3M per year was a bargain. So was Grudz at $1M this year, and Suppan at around $3M, and even Eckstein at $3M is a bargain when you consider that other FA shortstops like Renteria and Cabrera got 3 times as much money. I've been saying this all along... the Cards' domination of the NL Central the last 2 years has been a combination of good management and good luck People just forget that I acknowledge the first part of that.

 

There is a facet of the game were one cannot deny the Cards have been extremely fortunate the last two seasons - SP, their top three SP have missed how many regular season starts as compared to the Cubs?

[1wizard]

Truffle Wrote:

the Cards' domination of the NL Central the last 2 years has been a combination of good management and good luck

 

I am not forgetting that you have said the first part. It is that fact that you cannot concede that the Cardinals are a better all around team and actually have a very talented nucleus too. Looking from player to player (including pitching), I see very few spot where the Cubs have an advantage.

 

1st base - Even this year, Albert is better player over his short career

2nd base - Grudz, his defense is a lot better and is having a good season

SS - Eck

3rd - ARam this year, Rolen if he is 100%

C - Yadi is a far better defensive catcher and will be 2nd or 3rd in GG

RF - This is Ugly but So and the bench is better than Burnitez

CF - Not even close, And Jimmy has been one of the best CF in the game this year

LF - Sanders until he was injuried then I would go with So over the rest of the Cubs whole outfield.

 

Starting pitching

The Cards will have two Cy Young winners on the staff after Carp walks away with it this year. Plus they were 2nd in the NL ERA last year and 1st this year. And the fact that the Cubs pitchers cannot be counted on because of injuries does not mean that the Cardinals consistancy is LUCK.

If so I guess the Atlanta Braves of the 90's were lucky because their pitchers were all healthy.

 

Bullpen

Cards in a landslide even though their pen has been shaky this year.

 

Manager

TLR's dogs have more baseball knowledge than Dusty. Atleast they appreciate a walk.

 

GM

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB.

 

That my friend is a whole lot of talent within an organization, and the main reason they have run away with the division.

[gflore34]

3B - 100% Rolen over Ramirez, well we can play that game to-

 

SS - 100% Garciapparra dwarfs Eck literally, figuratively and statistically

 

SP - 100% Prior, Wood and Zambrano collectively are >> Carpenter, Suppan and Marquis

 

2B - I believe that's even

[TruffleShuffle]

I am not forgetting that you have said the first part. It is that fact that you cannot concede that the Cardinals are a better all around team and actually have a very talented nucleus too.

 

Oh no? Perhaps you missed all those times I've stated something along these lines:

 

And this isn't to say that I don't respect the Cardinals' team. I said before the season that I thought they were clearly the best club in the division and would win it by at least 5 games.

 

 

viewtopic.php?t=24110&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

 

I guess writing that type of thing 10 times wasn't enough to have it noticed though.

[TruffleShuffle]

1st base - Even this year, Albert is better player over his short career

2nd base - Grudz, his defense is a lot better and is having a good season

SS - Eck

3rd - ARam this year, Rolen if he is 100%

C - Yadi is a far better defensive catcher and will be 2nd or 3rd in GG

RF - This is Ugly but So and the bench is better than Burnitez

CF - Not even close, And Jimmy has been one of the best CF in the game this year

LF - Sanders until he was injuried then I would go with So over the rest of the Cubs whole outfield.

 

Starting pitching

The Cards will have two Cy Young winners on the staff after Carp walks away with it this year. Plus they were 2nd in the NL ERA last year and 1st this year. And the fact that the Cubs pitchers cannot be counted on because of injuries does not mean that the Cardinals consistancy is LUCK.

If so I guess the Atlanta Braves of the 90's were lucky because their pitchers were all healthy.

 

Bullpen

Cards in a landslide even though their pen has been shaky this year.

 

Manager

TLR's dogs have more baseball knowledge than Dusty. Atleast they appreciate a walk.

 

GM

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB.

 

That my friend is a whole lot of talent within an organization, and the main reason they have run away with the division.

 

Are all Cardinal fans this big homers? Good Lord.

 

Eckstein is better than Nomar when healthy?

Yadier Molina's defense makes up for the massive difference in offense (30 VORP for Barrett versus 8 for Molina)?

Grudz is better than Todd Walker?

So Taguchi and a bunch of bench guys are better than Burnitz?

2 Cy Young winners? Hey, the Cubs have one in Greg Maddux... yee haw. Mulder may have a Cy Young award but he clearly isn't pitching that way the last two years.

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB? John Schuerholtz has proven that by putting a team on the field that has won their division 12 years in a row. Jocketty has proven that he's good, but come on.

 

It's good that you support your team, but it doesn't make you any less of a fan to see things in an objective manner.

[indifferent]

Eckstein has been better than Renteria and Cabrera this year with money taken completely out of the equation. Not only is Eck better, but he is better suited for the Cards in need of a lead off batter.

 

I don't really agree that he's better than those guys... Renteria is better than Eckstein, unless you ignore the rest of their careers and focus on this year only. Cabrera's numbers are very close to Eckstein's, which makes the contract that Cabrera got from the Angels even more stunning. What a brutal move by the Angels, in all honesty.

 

Truffle, I'm glad you responded as you are always noting how lucky the Cards are. What can we attribute to this luck considering it's now been two years and every player we've signed from other teams has outperformed?

 

Not every player has... but many have. Womack last year, Nunez this year, Carpenter, Tavarez, there has been luck involved. But I think Jocketty has been very good at finding players (mainly veterans) who are undervalued in the free agent market. Sanders at $3M per year was a bargain. So was Grudz at $1M this year, and Suppan at around $3M, and even Eckstein at $3M is a bargain when you consider that other FA shortstops like Renteria and Cabrera got 3 times as much money. I've been saying this all along... the Cards' domination of the NL Central the last 2 years has been a combination of good management and good luck People just forget that I acknowledge the first part of that.

 

There is a facet of the game were one cannot deny the Cards have been extremely fortunate the last two seasons - SP, their top three SP have missed how many regular season starts as compared to the Cubs?

 

Regarding these pitchers, here's an excerpt from BP:

 

St. Louis Cardinals: Flourish: At press time the Cardinals' magic number was 11, but according to Clay Davenport's Playoff Odds Report they "statistically clinched" a playoff spot days ago. Davenport has written a couple of articles explaining his methodology, but for now we might simply say that the Postseason Odds Report shows the results of 1,000,000 simulations of the rest of the season.

 

According to Clay's simulations of the rest of the 2005 season there is literally not a single chance in a million that the Cardinals do not make the playoffs. The Cardinals statistically clinched a playoff spot with their 87th win of the season on Sunday against the Houston Astros.

 

Pitching Values: At press time, 137 of the Cardinals' 139 starts (98.6%) had come from their five-man rotation of Chris Carpenter, Mark Mulder, Jeff Suppan, Matt Morris and Jason Marquis. Anyone can take a quick look at BP's new sortable stats to see how these pitchers stack of against each other or against the rest of the National League.

 

We thought we would do one better at the BP Notebook and run the Cardinals' rotation through Nate Silver's new marginal gain calculations.

 

 

Name MarginalSalary* WARP MarketValue NetValue

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Carpenter $2,183,000 7.3 $15,622,000 $13,439,000

Mark Mulder $5,683,000 4.3 $ 9,202,000 $ 3,519,000

Jeff Suppan $3,683,000 2.6 $ 5,564,000 $ 1,881,000

Matt Morris $2,933,000 1.8 $ 3,852,000 $ 919,000

Jason Marquis $2,733,000 3.2 $ 6,848,000 $ 4,115,000

 

*Included are incentives that player is on pace to receive.

 

Marginal salary is simply salary minus the league minimum. WARP is in the glossary and quantifies the wins a player adds above a replacement-level player. Market Value is simply WARP*$2,140,000, which is roughly how much a win seems to be worth according to the most recent free agent season (though Nate Silver's newest research indicates that wins are valued differently by different teams depending on how close they are to the playoffs). Net Value is Market Value minus Marginal Salary.

First of all, Carpenter. Chris Carpenter is worth an astounding $13,439,000 more than he's being paid. He could earn a few more bonuses for post-season awards but by that point he will probably off-set any additional income with his rest-of-season production. $50,000 for the Cy Young Award seems like a bargain for the Cardinals (that's a race, by the way, which Carpenter is currently winning according to Bill James and Rob Neyer's Cy Young Predictor).

 

The second curious figure is Marquis' WARP and Net Value. Let's try another chart.

 

 

Name BRAR FRAR PRAR

----------------------------------------

Carpenter -13 2 81

Mulder -7 4 49

Suppan -4 2 32

Morris -8 1 30

Marquis +5 1 28

 

BRAR is Batting Runs Above Replacement, FRAR is Fielding Runs Above Replacement, and PRAR is Pitching Runs Above Replacement. Roughly speaking, WARP-1, which we used above, is derived from the combination of these three metrics.

Marquis may come in last in the pitching metric, but he is a full nine runs better than the 2nd best hitting pitcher in this group, and a full 18 runs better Chris Carpenter. Marquis' .342/.350/.513 line in 80 PAs makes him the best-hitting pitcher in the National League, and it's not even close.

 

The third interesting note, and perhaps most surprising, is that each one of those pitcher contracts is a deal for the Cardinals. Even Matt Morris (3.97 ERA in 165 1/3 IP) is worth more than what the Cardinals are paying him. Not a single member of the Cardinals Opening Day five-man rotation is being overpaid in 2005 either because of injury or under-performance.

[indifferent]

1st base - Even this year, Albert is better player over his short career

2nd base - Grudz, his defense is a lot better and is having a good season

SS - Eck

3rd - ARam this year, Rolen if he is 100%

C - Yadi is a far better defensive catcher and will be 2nd or 3rd in GG

RF - This is Ugly but So and the bench is better than Burnitez

CF - Not even close, And Jimmy has been one of the best CF in the game this year

LF - Sanders until he was injuried then I would go with So over the rest of the Cubs whole outfield.

 

Starting pitching

The Cards will have two Cy Young winners on the staff after Carp walks away with it this year. Plus they were 2nd in the NL ERA last year and 1st this year. And the fact that the Cubs pitchers cannot be counted on because of injuries does not mean that the Cardinals consistancy is LUCK.

If so I guess the Atlanta Braves of the 90's were lucky because their pitchers were all healthy.

 

Bullpen

Cards in a landslide even though their pen has been shaky this year.

 

Manager

TLR's dogs have more baseball knowledge than Dusty. Atleast they appreciate a walk.

 

GM

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB.

 

That my friend is a whole lot of talent within an organization, and the main reason they have run away with the division.

 

Are all Cardinal fans this big homers? Good Lord.

 

Eckstein is better than Nomar when healthy?

Yadier Molina's defense makes up for the massive difference in offense (30 VORP for Barrett versus 8 for Molina)?

Grudz is better than Todd Walker?

So Taguchi and a bunch of bench guys are better than Burnitz?

2 Cy Young winners? Hey, the Cubs have one in Greg Maddux... yee haw. Mulder may have a Cy Young award but he clearly isn't pitching that way the last two years.

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB? John Schuerholtz has proven that by putting a team on the field that has won their division 12 years in a row. Jocketty has proven that he's good, but come on.

 

It's good that you support your team, but it doesn't make you any less of a fan to see things in an objective manner.

 

The only thing I'd agree with on Wizard's list is that I'd rather have Molina than Barrett. Barrett has been better than Molina by far offensively this year (although citing VORPs doesn't take into account the time Molina missed). I'll take Molina long term; he's a better catcher and he will be better offensively.

 

On the GM front, I think it's safe to say Jocketty was better this year. I didn't like Schuerholz' move to start the year with Mondesi and Jordan in the outfield and the Capellan for Kolb trade was a disaster. His decision to let Drew go obviously turned out to be a good one in hindsight, but they gave up quite a bit to get him for one year. He did rob Beane in the Hudson trade though.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

1st base - Even this year, Albert is better player over his short career

2nd base - Grudz, his defense is a lot better and is having a good season

SS - Eck

3rd - ARam this year, Rolen if he is 100%

C - Yadi is a far better defensive catcher and will be 2nd or 3rd in GG

RF - This is Ugly but So and the bench is better than Burnitez

CF - Not even close, And Jimmy has been one of the best CF in the game this year

LF - Sanders until he was injuried then I would go with So over the rest of the Cubs whole outfield.

 

Starting pitching

The Cards will have two Cy Young winners on the staff after Carp walks away with it this year. Plus they were 2nd in the NL ERA last year and 1st this year. And the fact that the Cubs pitchers cannot be counted on because of injuries does not mean that the Cardinals consistancy is LUCK.

If so I guess the Atlanta Braves of the 90's were lucky because their pitchers were all healthy.

 

Bullpen

Cards in a landslide even though their pen has been shaky this year.

 

Manager

TLR's dogs have more baseball knowledge than Dusty. Atleast they appreciate a walk.

 

GM

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB.

 

That my friend is a whole lot of talent within an organization, and the main reason they have run away with the division.

 

Are all Cardinal fans this big homers? Good Lord.

 

Eckstein is better than Nomar when healthy?

Yadier Molina's defense makes up for the massive difference in offense (30 VORP for Barrett versus 8 for Molina)?

Grudz is better than Todd Walker?

So Taguchi and a bunch of bench guys are better than Burnitz?

2 Cy Young winners? Hey, the Cubs have one in Greg Maddux... yee haw. Mulder may have a Cy Young award but he clearly isn't pitching that way the last two years.

Jocketty has proven that he might be the best in MLB? John Schuerholtz has proven that by putting a team on the field that has won their division 12 years in a row. Jocketty has proven that he's good, but come on.

 

It's good that you support your team, but it doesn't make you any less of a fan to see things in an objective manner.

 

The only thing I'd agree with on Wizard's list is that I'd rather have Molina than Barrett. Barrett has been better than Molina by far offensively this year (although citing VORPs doesn't take into account the time Molina missed). I'll take Molina long term; he's a better catcher and he will be better offensively.

 

On the GM front, I think it's safe to say Jocketty was better this year. I didn't like Schuerholz' move to start the year with Mondesi and Jordan in the outfield and the Capellan for Kolb trade was a disaster. His decision to let Drew go obviously turned out to be a good one in hindsight, but they gave up quite a bit to get him for one year. He did rob Beane in the Hudson trade though.

Molina will probably be better defensively than Barrett. However, How do you know Molina is going to be better offensively? You don't! Barrett is a very good offensive C. I agree that Jocketty has been a better GM than JH.

[wolf stansson]

Molina will probably be better defensively than Barrett. However, How do you know Molina is going to be better offensively? You don't! Barrett is a very good offensive C. I agree that Jocketty has been a better GM than JH.

Molina's already better defensively than Barrett.

 

And I think he meant that Molina will be better offensively than he is now, not better than Barrett.

[1wizard]

TruffleShuffle wrote

Are all Cardinal fans this big homers? Good Lord.

 

Eckstein is better than Nomar when healthy?

Yadier Molina's defense makes up for the massive difference in offense (30 VORP for Barrett versus 8 for Molina)?

Grudz is better than Todd Walker?

So Taguchi and a bunch of bench guys are better than Burnitz?

 

Nomar has never been a healthy SS for the Cubs. So yes I would take Eck over Perez.

 

Molina's offensive numbers are respectable to considering that he started his Rookie year in a huge slump. He is going to be a good offensive player and a steller defensive catcher. He has only allowed only 12 stolen bases to Barrett's 64. Yadi has thrown out 23 to Barrett 19. You tell me who is the better catcher is. The rest of the league knows who the better catcher is because they know who they can run on and who they cannot.

 

Walker has a slight offensive advantage but I would still take Grudz defense. He has a good shot at the GG at second and has done a great job turning dp's this year (101 DP's). Walker's defense is average at best.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=mlb&section3=null&statSet3=null&sortByStat=G&statType=3&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2005&baseballScope=NL&prevPage3=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=4&box5=XXXX115210sln4&box11=XXXX123842chn4&compare.x=33&compare.y=8

 

Taguchi vs. Burnitez - Yes it is hard to believe someone could actually be better than a .261 hitter. Yeah, .261. But I would take So any day of the week over Burnitez.

 

 

I find it funny how you think the Cubs players are all superior to the Cardinal players yet they cannot manage to be .500. I guess it is all the injuries they have suffered, the manager, the announcers, the schedule, or maybe just LUCK.

 

Truffle, you are right the Cards are just lucky I guess and the Cubs are not.

[TruffleShuffle]

I find it funny how you think the Cubs players are all superior to the Cardinal players yet they cannot manage to be .500. I guess it is all the injuries they have suffered, the manager, the announcers, the schedule, or maybe just LUCK.

 

Truffle, you are right the Cards are just lucky I guess and the Cubs are not.

 

Wow, would you like to go through the rest of my posts and completely mischaracterize them as well?

[1wizard]

TrueBlueCubFan wrote:

Molina will probably be better defensively than Barrett. However, How do you know Molina is going to be better offensively? You don't! Barrett is a very good offensive C. I agree that Jocketty has been a better GM than JH.

 

If you take away Yadi's terrible start to his rookie year (11-64), he would be hitting .280 (75-268). He just turned 23 in July, so I would imagine that he will only improve offensively after he gets some more experience.

[UK1679666180]

TrueBlueCubFan wrote:

Molina will probably be better defensively than Barrett. However, How do you know Molina is going to be better offensively? You don't! Barrett is a very good offensive C. I agree that Jocketty has been a better GM than JH.

 

If you take away Yadi's terrible start to his rookie year (11-64), he would be hitting .280 (75-268). He just turned 23 in July, so I would imagine that he will only improve offensively after he gets some more experience.

 

He was below avg. offensively throughout his minor league career as well, his offensive ceiling is maybe an avg. player (.750 OPS/.263 EqA).

 

He'll likely be a 7/8 hitter for his career, unless something dramatic occurs.

[1wizard]

He'll likely be a 7/8 hitter for his career, unless something dramatic occurs.

 

Something dramatic has occured; he is a St. Louis Cardinal. Thus he will be very lucky for the rest of his career. :lol: