So it's begun... (Lawton to Yankees)

[Cubbie_Gal]

So does this mean Murton will start in left for the rest of '05? I hope so.

 

Awesome! I've been waiting for him to come back up from the minors. We need to ditch some more overpaid/underperfoming "talent" and give these young guys some time in the Big Leagues.

[UK1679666180]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

 

Yeah, Ohman was the first lefty, and Bartosh theoretically was the 2nd with Rusch as a long man. Bartosh was the wrong target in hindsight, but since Bay was going to be part of that roster crunch anyways, dealing him to take a chance on a short term upgrade, even with a lower ceiling than himself, isn't a terrible decision to me.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Nothing impressive here. I wonder if McClain is going to get some starts at 3B with Ramirez out.

 

I'm not sure the sample size here, but I did notice this tid bit about Berg on Cubs.com

 

Berg has found his greatest success in 2005 in the starting rotation, going 3-0 with a 2.72 ERA (12 ER/39.2 IP) and a .199 opponents batting average against.

 

 

Once again we've stockpiled another mediocre arm for the minor leagues. We must be running a market on these guys.

 

I'm not too upset at giving up Lawton at this point. He wasn't coming back, and the season is over. I guess if I look at it as Dubois for this Berg kid, I would get angry...but I've long since stopped fuming over us trading Dubois.

 

 

I am still angry that Murton got demoted, however.

[YearofDaCubs]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

 

Yeah, Ohman was the first lefty, and Bartosh theoretically was the 2nd with Rusch as a long man. Bartosh was the wrong target in hindsight, but since Bay was going to be part of that roster crunch anyways, dealing him to take a chance on a short term upgrade, even with a lower ceiling than himself, isn't a terrible decision to me.

Actually, if I recall correctly thr Bartosh trade sent Ohman to the minors. And after Hendry figured out he made a bad trade he demoted Bartosh and brought Ohman back up, but I'm certain Ohman did not open the season on our roster.

 

EDIT: Yup, he did not start on the roster and possibly had to clear waivers to get to the minors in the first place which means we had a good chance to lose Ohman all because Hendry though Bartosh was the answer.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/2005odr/cubs.html

[UK1679666180]

Bay was going to be part of that roster crunch anyways,

 

Yes, but so has Bartosh.

 

If I saw more in Bartosh, I would not have minded the move, but I didn't see anything that projects him as a ML reliever. He couldn't locate his slider and had to depend on his FB. He has a deceptive delivery and nothing else.

 

His results didn't dictate this being a bad move, his stuff did. He actually had very good numbers in the minors, but I can't see that translating to the majors with what he has.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

 

Yeah, Ohman was the first lefty, and Bartosh theoretically was the 2nd with Rusch as a long man. Bartosh was the wrong target in hindsight, but since Bay was going to be part of that roster crunch anyways, dealing him to take a chance on a short term upgrade, even with a lower ceiling than himself, isn't a terrible decision to me.

Actually, if I recall correctly thr Bartosh trade sent Ohman to the minors. And after Hendry figured out he made a bad trade he demoted Bartosh and brought Ohman back up, but I'm certain Ohman did not open the season on our roster.

 

Hmm, didn't remember that. In either case Bartosh provided a second ML level lefty out of the pen, and I've already spent more time than I should have trying to justify it. To me, it doesn't strike me as an awful or terrible gamble all things considered.

[UK1679666180]

Those are actually pretty good numbers for a sinker/slider pitcher. Only 3HRs allowed, low BAA, high Ks.

[Derwood]

Those are actually pretty good numbers for a sinker/slider pitcher. Only 3HRs allowed, low BAA, high Ks.

 

That's what I thought. Nothing mediocre looking about those numbers. People are complaining we traded away Bear Bay, while Berg has much better numbers (albeit at different levels)

[UK1679666180]

Those are actually pretty good numbers for a sinker/slider pitcher. Only 3HRs allowed, low BAA, high Ks.

 

That's what I thought. Nothing mediocre looking about those numbers. People are complaining we traded away Bear Bay, while Berg has much better numbers (albeit at different levels)

 

Unfair to compare them, but both went the JUCO route. Bay is a year older and is already pitching at AA after a successful start at High-A. At the same age, Bay was finishing up his 1st year at Low-A.

 

Berg would've been a top 30 prospect for the Yankees, I imagine he'll be in 30-35 range for the Cubs.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

seems like the best course of action, even though i'm not happy we're going to end up with some scrub for dubois...

well since Dubois is a scrub, it's not a bad move

[erik316wttn]

The Score is reporting that the fire sale has begun, and Burnitz and Walker are the 2 most likely candidates to be the next to be traded.

 

We might be able to get something relatively decent for Burnitz, as condenders are (seemingly) always looking for a lefty power bat.

 

However, if we trade Walker I will be really pissed. He's our best hitter this year behind Lee and Ramirez, he has a cheap option, and there aren't a lot of better options out there in the offseason.

 

Now, if we upgrade at 2nd in the offseason, ok, then trade him. But not until.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

I know alot of people on here wont like the suggestion, but i think that trading walker may be a good move. The twins have been looking for a 2b all season and they have some good prospects, if the Cubs could get some good prospects for him i think they should consider moving him.

That would be an excellent move, Walker is a defensive liability & the Cubs do have Hairston & Neifi who can play 2nd along with rosters expanding on Sept. 1st.

[erik316wttn]

I know alot of people on here wont like the suggestion, but i think that trading walker may be a good move. The twins have been looking for a 2b all season and they have some good prospects, if the Cubs could get some good prospects for him i think they should consider moving him.

That would be an excellent move, Walker is a defensive liability & the Cubs do have Hairston & Neifi who can play 2nd along with rosters expanding on Sept. 1st.

 

But do his "defensive struggles" outweigh what he brings to the plate?

 

IMO, giving a number from 1-10, with 1 being the worst player in baseball defensively, 10 being the best, and 5 being average, Walker is no worse than a 4.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I know alot of people on here wont like the suggestion, but i think that trading walker may be a good move. The twins have been looking for a 2b all season and they have some good prospects, if the Cubs could get some good prospects for him i think they should consider moving him.

That would be an excellent move, Walker is a defensive liability & the Cubs do have Hairston & Neifi who can play 2nd along with rosters expanding on Sept. 1st.

 

But do his "defensive struggles" outweigh what he brings to the plate?

 

IMO, giving a number from 1-10, with 1 being the worst player in baseball defensively, 10 being the best, and 5 being average, Walker is no worse than a 4.

 

Agreed. Walker will never win a gold glove, but he's not a "defensive liability" that it's worth sacrificing his bat.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

I doubt it will happen, but I would love to see the Cubs trade for O.Hudson. Isn't he a FA this coming off-season?

[erik316wttn]

Surely the poster can't be advocating playing Neifi every day.

 

If defense won championships, you'd see a heck of a lot more Rey Ordonez's, circa 1999 around.

 

Defense is important, yes, but not so important to sacrifice offensive production.

 

Now, if we could find a guy who can hit like Walker who is a wizard with the glove and makes roughly the same salary, ok, pull the trigger. However, don't go for that defensive wizard who can't hit a lick. That gets you nowhere.

[CP_414]

The Score is reporting that the fire sale has begun, and Burnitz and Walker are the 2 most likely candidates to be the next to be traded.

 

We might be able to get something relatively decent for Burnitz, as condenders are (seemingly) always looking for a lefty power bat.

 

Is it still legal to sell players? I would rather get $1 million in cash plus the buyout for Burnitz than some mid-level propect. $1.5 is the difference between a Macias and a 2 million dollar bench bat (Branyan or someone with a big bat).

[TrueBlueCubFan]

Surely the poster can't be advocating playing Neifi every day.

 

If defense won championships, you'd see a heck of a lot more Augie Ojedas around.

 

Defense is important, yes, but not so important to sacrifice offensive production.

 

Now, if we could find a guy who can hit like Walker who is a wizard with the glove, ok, pull the trigger. However, don't go for that defensive wizard who can't hit a lick. That gets you nowhere.

I agree with you. I'm just sick of watching Walker takling the baseball @ 2nd. Not to single him out, but Aram,Barrett & Nomar are also avg. to below avg defenders. Hitting is very important to create runs. However, a good defense behind a decent pitching staff is also very important & is a major ingredient in winning championships. Ex. Marlins of 03'. There was not a better defensive IF in MLB. The key here is finding the complete ball player. I just feel, Todd Walker is not it.

[erik316wttn]

Surely the poster can't be advocating playing Neifi every day.

 

If defense won championships, you'd see a heck of a lot more Augie Ojedas around.

 

Defense is important, yes, but not so important to sacrifice offensive production.

 

Now, if we could find a guy who can hit like Walker who is a wizard with the glove, ok, pull the trigger. However, don't go for that defensive wizard who can't hit a lick. That gets you nowhere.

I agree with you. I'm just sick of watching Walker takling the baseball @ 2nd. Not to single him out, but Aram,Barrett & Nomar are also avg. to below avg defenders. Hitting is very important to create runs. However, a good defense behind a decent pitching staff is also very important & is a major ingredient in winning championships. Ex. Marlins of 03'. There was not a better defensive IF in MLB. The key here is finding the complete ball player. I just feel, Todd Walker is not it.

 

And you may be right. However, there aren't really any "complete" 2B men out there to be had right now, and Walker is the best option we have.

 

If they do happen to find a "complete" 2B in the offseason, fine, trade Walker. However, they'd be stupid to do anything without an adequate backup.

[AlwaysaCub]

The Score is reporting that the fire sale has begun, and Burnitz and Walker are the 2 most likely candidates to be the next to be traded.

 

We might be able to get something relatively decent for Burnitz, as condenders are (seemingly) always looking for a lefty power bat.

 

Is it still legal to sell players? I would rather get $1 million in cash plus the buyout for Burnitz than some mid-level propect. $1.5 is the difference between a Macias and a 2 million dollar bench bat (Branyan or someone with a big bat).

 

You can still attempt it, but any transaction involving more than $1 million is subject to review by the Commish's office, and can be rejected if it is felt it is unacceptable or whatnot.

[TXCubsFan]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

 

But does Bay project higher than Nolasco? I don't think so. With Prior, Zambrano, and Williams as starters, and Wood, Guzman, Hill, and Nolasco as potential starters by the time Bay would arrive, what would his chances of making the Cubs starting rotation be anyway?

 

At some point Hendry has to trust the drafting and development team he has installed to keep the pipeline of young pitching prospects flowing. Trading a player like Bay is part of maintaining a balanced portfolio of players for the present and future.

[UK1679666180]

I was never too upset about the Bay-Bartosh trade. Bay is a guy with the ceiling of a bottom of the rotation guy, and he was going to be a part of the Rule V crunch at the end of the year. The Cubs needed another LHP for the pen, so they used the excess to try and grab one. Maybe they shouldn't have gone after Bartosh, but on the whole, I guess I never felt trading away Bay to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a reliever was that bad of a gamble.

 

What was wrong with giving Ohman a shot? He is a better pitcher than Bartosh. I didn't see anything in Bartosh from the beg., I saw a flat 90 MPH FB and an avg. breaking pitch, there wasn't anything there worth trading for.

 

I thought Hendry overpaid for another situational lefty.

 

Bay projects as a 4/5, but that is a higher ceiling than Bartosh.

 

But does Bay project higher than Nolasco? I don't think so. With Prior, Zambrano, and Williams as starters, and Wood, Guzman, Hill, and Nolasco as potential starters by the time Bay would arrive, what would his chances of making the Cubs starting rotation be anyway?

 

At some point Hendry has to trust the drafting and development team he has installed to keep the pipeline of young pitching prospects flowing. Trading a player like Bay is part of maintaining a balanced portfolio of players for the present and future.

 

Bay doesn't project as high as Nolasco, he doesn't project higher than Pinto or Marshall either, but if you work from the premise of trading depth, get something in return, try and improve a different aspect of your minor league system. You don't trade a player who ranked around 25-30 in your system coming off a season at Low-A based on future ML pitching depth for nothing.

[Tracer Bullet]

I know alot of people on here wont like the suggestion, but i think that trading walker may be a good move. The twins have been looking for a 2b all season and they have some good prospects, if the Cubs could get some good prospects for him i think they should consider moving him.

That would be an excellent move, Walker is a defensive liability & the Cubs do have Hairston & Neifi who can play 2nd along with rosters expanding on Sept. 1st.

 

Neither Hairston nor Perez should be an everyday 2B for the Cubs next year, esp not when they have a cheap option on Walker and his .350 OBP. It's not like we're overflowing w/ top of the order hitters here.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

Surely the poster can't be advocating playing Neifi every day.

 

If defense won championships, you'd see a heck of a lot more Augie Ojedas around.

 

Defense is important, yes, but not so important to sacrifice offensive production.

 

Now, if we could find a guy who can hit like Walker who is a wizard with the glove, ok, pull the trigger. However, don't go for that defensive wizard who can't hit a lick. That gets you nowhere.

I agree with you. I'm just sick of watching Walker takling the baseball @ 2nd. Not to single him out, but Aram,Barrett & Nomar are also avg. to below avg defenders. Hitting is very important to create runs. However, a good defense behind a decent pitching staff is also very important & is a major ingredient in winning championships. Ex. Marlins of 03'. There was not a better defensive IF in MLB. The key here is finding the complete ball player. I just feel, Todd Walker is not it.

 

And you may be right. However, there aren't really any "complete" 2B men out there to be had right now, and Walker is the best option we have.

 

If they do happen to find a "complete" 2B in the offseason, fine, trade Walker. However, they'd be stupid to do anything without an adequate backup.

Orlando Hudson is a more complete player than is T. Walker. O. Hudson would be a great fit for the Cubs.