Where credit is due (Duncan)

[BeerHere]

Probably not going to be the most popular topic tonight given the gut wrenching loss, but I'm going to be up for a while(see topic in rant).

 

While watching the game tonight I was thinking about the card rotations of the past few years. Dave Duncan must be one heck of a pitching coach. It seems like they take old beaten up pitchers and they resurrect their career in St. Lou. Kile was awful in Colorado (as are a lot of pitchers) but he joins the cards and he's their ace and pitched like one. Morris is good as well. Suppan , not so much this year, but he was good last year. Williams was ok in San Diego and Toronto, but he becomes a horse as a cardinal.

 

Look at Carpenter

1997 Tor 81.1 5.09

1998 Tor 177 4.37

1999 Tor 150.0 4.38

2000 Tor 175.1 6.26

2001 Tor 216.2 4.09

2002 Tor 73.1 5.28

2004 StL 182.0 3.46

2005 StL 147.1 2.26

 

I could probably pick a few failurs as well (Ankiel, Simontacchi, Stephensen etc) but the failure ratio has to be close to other teams. It seems like Duncan is very good at getting the best out of pitchers who already have good stuff, but just haven't figured out the art of pitching.

 

I'm no tard fan, but I gotta give credit where it's due.

[OldHappyCubFan]

If the Cards stay healthy, and get a decent Rolen back, I think they'll win the Series this year.

 

 

Their team is amazing. They have a couple of All Star caliber players, some solid veteren ex All-Stars, and toss in a couple of young players with good patience, .OBP, and defense.

 

Coupled with consistent pitching and a good bullpen.

 

They execute almost every chance they're given. They adopted qualities that La Russa instilled in them.

 

That being said, I hate the Cards, but they impress me. As a fan of baseball, I can't deny them World Series contenders for the next few years, they have earned it.

[BeerHere]

If the Cards stay healthy, and get a decent Rolen back, I think they'll win the Series this year.

 

 

Their team is amazing. They have a couple of All Star caliber players, some solid veteren ex All-Stars, and toss in a couple of young players with good patience, .OBP, and defense.

 

Coupled with consistent pitching and a good bullpen.

 

They execute almost every chance they're given. They adopted qualities that La Russa instilled in them.

 

That being said, I hate the Cards, but they impress me. As a fan of baseball, I can't deny them World Series contenders for the next few years, they have earned it.

 

Agreed on all points. I thought the Rolen injury would kill their offense, it didn't. Now Sanders gets hurt and they call up Babe Rodriguez who's won two games for them in his first 10. A Pujols injury would hurt them, but he's been durable so far in his career. Gotta give them credit. Players in St. Louis just approach the game differently. They expect to win, they execute, they pitch well, they catch the ball, they win.

 

I absolutely hate em. I could care less what happens against the white Sox, just beat st. louis. It's frustrating as hell.

[Chief_Cardinal]

they call up Babe Rodriguez who's won two games for them in his first 10.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying...but that was only the 5th game for the "Babe". He debuted on Monday Night.

 

Considering that Simontachi wasn't ever expected to do much.....I don't see him being considered a failure in STL....he pretty much did what Suppan has done the past 2 years.

 

My question is this: Why is Burnitz batting 4th with ARam batting 5th? Wouldn't ARam provide more protection for Mr Triple Crown.

[Coach C]

My question is this: Why is Burnitz batting 4th with ARam batting 5th? Wouldn't ARam provide more protection for Mr Triple Crown.

 

You'll have to ask Dusty about that. We don't have a clue either.

[Warpticon]

they call up Babe Rodriguez who's won two games for them in his first 10.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying...but that was only the 5th game for the "Babe". He debuted on Monday Night.

 

Considering that Simontachi wasn't ever expected to do much.....I don't see him being considered a failure in STL....he pretty much did what Suppan has done the past 2 years.

 

My question is this: Why is Burnitz batting 4th with ARam batting 5th? Wouldn't ARam provide more protection for Mr Triple Crown.

 

three words: right-left-right.

[10man]

three words: right-left-right.

Yet another example of Baker as a member of the "Ol'e Boys Club" blindly following traditional baseball thinking and not using common sense or numbers. Ramirez hits righties and lefties well while Burnitz does not even come close to Aram whether it's against lefties or righties.

 

There is absolutely no INTELLIGENT reason why Burnitz should be batting ahead of Ramirez.

[Clogged Basepaths]

three words: right-left-right.

Yet another example of Baker as a member of the "Ol'e Boys Club" blindly following traditional baseball thinking and not using common sense or numbers. Ramirez hits righties and lefties well while Burnitz does not even come close to Aram whether it's against lefties or righties.

 

There is absolutely no INTELLIGENT reason why Burnitz should be batting ahead of Ramirez.

 

Extremely valid point, but when did waiting for an ordinary intelligent decision become such a pipe-dream?

 

Makes me sad.

[TommyJohn]

they call up Babe Rodriguez who's won two games for them in his first 10.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying...but that was only the 5th game for the "Babe". He debuted on Monday Night.

 

Considering that Simontachi wasn't ever expected to do much.....I don't see him being considered a failure in STL....he pretty much did what Suppan has done the past 2 years.

 

My question is this: Why is Burnitz batting 4th with ARam batting 5th? Wouldn't ARam provide more protection for Mr Triple Crown.

 

three words: right-left-right.

 

Not saying that I agree or disagree with it, but it might also have to do with the fact Burnitz is a pull hitter with usually a defensive shift. If a guy is typically on first base, it opens up more space on the right side. Lee takes a lot of walks and is on 1st base more than anyone else on the lineup... now you can argue if he's more likely to get pitched around with Burntiz batting behind him rather than Aramis.

[Tito Landrum]

If the Cards stay healthy, and get a decent Rolen back, I think they'll win the Series this year.

 

 

Their team is amazing. They have a couple of All Star caliber players, some solid veteren ex All-Stars, and toss in a couple of young players with good patience, .OBP, and defense.

 

Coupled with consistent pitching and a good bullpen.

 

They execute almost every chance they're given. They adopted qualities that La Russa instilled in them.

 

That being said, I hate the Cards, but they impress me. As a fan of baseball, I can't deny them World Series contenders for the next few years, they have earned it.

 

Agreed on all points. I thought the Rolen injury would kill their offense, it didn't. Now Sanders gets hurt and they call up Babe Rodriguez who's won two games for them in his first 10. A Pujols injury would hurt them, but he's been durable so far in his career. Gotta give them credit. Players in St. Louis just approach the game differently. They expect to win, they execute, they pitch well, they catch the ball, they win.

I absolutely hate em. I could care less what happens against the white Sox, just beat st. louis. It's frustrating as hell.

 

 

 

 

you sound like me talking about the Redwings after beating my Blues for the 7 time in 8 games in a season.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I'm not hating on the Cards or anything, but they WON'T win the series this yr. Interestingly enough the Cards 2005 pace is half game off of 2004 pace. In 2004 the Cards were 61-34 and leading the Cubs by 10 games. In 2005 the Cards are 62-34 and leading the Cubs by 14 games. So, IMO while the Cards did pick Mulder who is "supposed to be" better then his replacement (Williams) the Cards are NO better this yr, then they were last yr. Not to mention they lost Calero and Haren in the deal. Walker is pretty much playing on ONE leg. Sanders is out 4-6 weeks. So essentially the Cards are a 2 trick pony; Pujols and Edmonds as long as Rolen is out. And I don't know about you, but if Rolen doesn't come back healthy, and Walker showing why he is a HOFer, or even Sanders being the solid role player, I just DON'T see the Cards as winning the World Series unless they are battling the White Sox. :)

 

Here is to the Cards deal with devil ending after the season.

[Larry Horse]

If the Cards stay healthy, and get a decent Rolen back, I think they'll win the Series this year.

 

 

Their team is amazing. They have a couple of All Star caliber players, some solid veteren ex All-Stars, and toss in a couple of young players with good patience, .OBP, and defense.

 

Coupled with consistent pitching and a good bullpen.

 

They execute almost every chance they're given. They adopted qualities that La Russa instilled in them.

 

That being said, I hate the Cards, but they impress me. As a fan of baseball, I can't deny them World Series contenders for the next few years, they have earned it.

 

That's why, northside.

 

Even with all the things you posted, they are at almost the exact same point as they were last year. I give them their props, as much as I hate to.

[1wizard]

I'm not hating on the Cards or anything, but they WON'T win the series this yr. Interestingly enough the Cards 2005 pace is half game off of 2004 pace. In 2004 the Cards were 61-34 and leading the Cubs by 10 games. In 2005 the Cards are 62-34 and leading the Cubs by 14 games. So, IMO while the Cards did pick Mulder who is "supposed to be" better then his replacement (Williams) the Cards are NO better this yr, then they were last yr. Not to mention they lost Calero and Haren in the deal. Walker is pretty much playing on ONE leg. Sanders is out 4-6 weeks. So essentially the Cards are a 2 trick pony; Pujols and Edmonds as long as Rolen is out. And I don't know about you, but if Rolen doesn't come back healthy, and Walker showing why he is a HOFer, or even Sanders being the solid role player, I just DON'T see the Cards as winning the World Series unless they are battling the White Sox.

 

I am not saying they are going to win the Series, but I find it more impressive that they are having such a good season with so many players having subpar years and injuries. Heck, Walker and Rolen have not been healthy this year, Molina and Sanders are out, and Mulder has struggled. If (and it is a big if) Sanders, Walker, and Rolen come back to their normal form for the playoffs, I really like their chances.

 

On a side note, JRod's performance might limit the Cardinals interest in obtaining another outfielder. And I really do not know if that is a good thing or bad thing. I cannot help but to think of Bobo Hart, but the kid has a lot more physical skills than Hart. What do you guys make of him? (serious answers please)

[Fred Hornkohl]

three words: right-left-right.

Yet another example of Baker as a member of the "Ol'e Boys Club" blindly following traditional baseball thinking and not using common sense or numbers. Ramirez hits righties and lefties well while Burnitz does not even come close to Aram whether it's against lefties or righties.

 

There is absolutely no INTELLIGENT reason why Burnitz should be batting ahead of Ramirez.

 

While Ramirez is clearly a better hitter than Burnitz, I really don't see why it's a problem putting Burnitz in the 4th spot against right handers. Burnitz has a very attractive 0.380 OBP when he's hitting 4th, and Ramirez seems to be driving in runs at the same rate whether he's hitting 4th behind Lee or 5th behind Burnitz. I just don't see a problem here.

 

Burnitz            AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
batting 4th       159   30   45    9    0    6   72   19   25   23  0.283  0.380  0.453  0.833
batting 5th       106   18   32    6    1    5   55   17    6   19  0.302  0.333  0.519  0.852

 

Ramirez            AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
batting 4th       168   28   52   16    0   13  107   34   17   22  0.310  0.373  0.637  1.010
batting 5th       156   23   51    6    0   11   90   33   11   17  0.327  0.375  0.577  0.952

[UK1679666180]

Duncan is a heck of a PC, I wouldn't give too much credit for Kile, you can trace his success back to Houston, before the thin air flattened his curve. On that same note, I wouldn't give him blame for someone like Simontacchi who had very limited stuff to work with and Duncan got the most out of. I like his preparation to the game, as a byproduct of LaRussa, he is involved in the game situations more than he should be. I think he calls pickoffs, pitch outs, pitches, and other in-game situations too often, this should be handled by the pitcher and C more times than not. He is one of the best in the game. On a personal note, I'm more disappointed with the arm injuries of Alan Benes.

 

 

Give Jocketty credit for this as well, he deserves it.

[biittner77]

THe Cards are where they are because they have taken advantage of the weaker teams in the division. They beat up the Pirates and especially the Reds on a regular basis.

 

In the interest of saying something nice about the Cards I was glad to see them honor one of the few Cards I actually liked, Bob Forsch. He was a good hitter and semmed like a class act. I didn't realize he had thrown 2 no hitters before last night.

[rawaction]

I believe Duncan is a notch below Mazzone as a PC. I don't know if it's luck, but he's getting the job done. The Cubs run circles around them in pitching talent, but aren't getting nearly as much out of it.