Third Base

[Jssanto]

It seems to me........A lot of who should/could/would/will/won't play third base talk and speculation since the winter meetings.

Wisdom for his power even if his defense (from average) is in decline?

Madrigal with only a 2B arm?

Morel for his bat and accept his hopefully "ok" defense.

Matt Shaw, who has more time at other infield spots and likely needs more minor league at-bats?

Trade for someone not on the current roster (and what prospect do we lose)?

Play the recently acquired Busch against both R and L handers?

Hoerner has gold gloves at SS and 2B. Why is no one talking about moving him to third? Morel's better position is 2B. Madrigal's arm is better at 2B. I likely am just missing something.

[Jason Ross]

I think we have to ignore arm strength as a major deterring factor with how the Cubs see defense. We've seen the Cubs turn Hoerner and his relatively weak arm into a plus defensive SS. They went out of their way to pay $170m to a relatively weak armed SS...he was wonderful still. They successfully moved Madrigal to 3b despite the arm. However they proceed defensively on the infield, I think we have to do so with an understanding that they do things their own way, and maybe don't factor in pure arm strength as importantly as we the fans feel they should.

[Bertz]

TT put it better/more succinctly than I can at some point last week, but basically while you'd maybe put the odds below 50/50 on any individual member of the 3B crew putting together a season where they're worthy of being the everyday guy, given the volume of guys one or more of them probably ends up being worth it.

My guess is that Madrigal is the primary guy, with Busch and/or Wisdom sliding over there for certain matchups.  Ultimately though, I think one of the kids takes the job by June or it's addressed at the trade deadline.

I'm fine with the uncertainty, but I do think it basically necessitates Bellinger coming back.  If Jed had pulled down Soto or Ohtani we could play the "it'll probably be fine" game at both CF and 3B, but without a true lineup anchor we can't risk the entire bottom 3rd of the order being a wash.

[Rcal10]

1 hour ago, Jssanto said:

It seems to me........A lot of who should/could/would/will/won't play third base talk and speculation since the winter meetings.

Wisdom for his power even if his defense (from average) is in decline?

Madrigal with only a 2B arm?

Morel for his bat and accept his hopefully "ok" defense.

Matt Shaw, who has more time at other infield spots and likely needs more minor league at-bats?

Trade for someone not on the current roster (and what prospect do we lose)?

Play the recently acquired Busch against both R and L handers?

Hoerner has gold gloves at SS and 2B. Why is no one talking about moving him to third? Morel's better position is 2B. Madrigal's arm is better at 2B. I likely am just missing something.

Correction: Hoerner does not have a gold glove at SS. But he does have one at 2nd. Moving  GG second baseman off the position so Morel can play it just doesn’t seem like a good idea. If I had to guess they will go with someone already in the roster. But that someone would be either Busch or Morel, for me. Right now I think Busch. I know when he came here Jed and Hawkins suggested he would be the first baseman. I know they are also both straight shooters. But in this case, doesn’t putting something out there that Busch willl play first give you some leverage when talking about other potential first baseman. We all know the names. Naylor has been floated around. As has Alonso. Both as trade options. And then there is Hoskins and even Bellinger. Doesn’t the Cubs saying Busch is their first baseman take some bargaining power away from Boras or the trade partner? 
I guarantee that if the Cubs plan was to play Busch at 3rd they wouldn’t announce that. That lets Boras or any team they might want to trade with have leverage to say the Cubs need a first baseman. There are a lot better options for 1st than there are 3rd. In the end I think they will fill one and the other spot will go to Busch with Morel as DH. 
 

[Backtobanks]

Kim is readily available as a solid option and has basically the same trade value as Busch.

[Rcal10]

56 minutes ago, Backtobanks said:

Kim is readily available as a solid option and has basically the same trade value as Busch.

He is probably the best 3rd base option who may be realistically available. That is why I think they could move Busch to 3rd. Guys like Naylor and Alonso may be available in trade and Hoskins via free agency. 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Backtobanks said:

Kim is readily available as a solid option and has basically the same trade value as Busch.

I imagine that if Kim were available for the same offer as Busch, Hoyer would have likely gone with Kim. I'm guessing he costs Busch plus another somewhat significant piece.

[Backtobanks]

36 minutes ago, Rob said:

I imagine that if Kim were available for the same offer as Busch, Hoyer would have likely gone with Kim. I'm guessing he costs Busch plus another somewhat significant piece.

Busch plus Mervis puts us over according to MLBTV and the padres could put Mervis at 1B and move Crowenworth to 2B where he has more value.

[Derwood]

 

[Rcal10]

1 hour ago, Backtobanks said:

Busch plus Mervis puts us over according to MLBTV and the padres could put Mervis at 1B and move Crowenworth to 2B where he has more value.

I wouldn’t think they would have acquired Busch to then trade him for a guy with one year left in his contract. Maybe they trade Assad or Wesneski plus Mervis for him. But I doubt it is Busch

[Backtobanks]

19 hours ago, Rcal10 said:

I wouldn’t think they would have acquired Busch to then trade him for a guy with one year left in his contract. Maybe they trade Assad or Wesneski plus Mervis for him. But I doubt it is Busch

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone who has a mutual option after next year and then 2 years of arbitration before he becomes can become a FA.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

10 minutes ago, Backtobanks said:

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone who has a mutual option after next year and then 2 years of arbitration before he becomes can become a FA.

International FA almost always have contract language exempting them from FA service time requirements.  There's a chance that it might not be the case for Kim since he's from Korea and didn't sign a huge deal that implies enormous leverage, but the general expectation is that he is.  MLBTR lists him as a potential FA next year if the option isn't exercised, for example.  Seiya is not assumed to have another year of team control after his contract before FA, to name another name closer to home.

[Backtobanks]

17 hours ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

International FA almost always have contract language exempting them from FA service time requirements.  There's a chance that it might not be the case for Kim since he's from Korea and didn't sign a huge deal that implies enormous leverage, but the general expectation is that he is.  MLBTR lists him as a potential FA next year if the option isn't exercised, for example.  Seiya is not assumed to have another year of team control after his contract before FA, to name another name closer to home.

I'm still having trouble understanding what Kim's options are if the mutual option is not agreed upon.  Are his only options Korea or not playing because he can't be a MLB FA until 2027?  Since he still has arbitration years left after the mutual option, doesn't whatever team he is on still have control over him?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

3 minutes ago, Backtobanks said:

I'm still having trouble understanding what Kim's options are if the mutual option is not agreed upon.  Are his only options Korea or not playing because he can't be a MLB FA until 2027?  Since he still has arbitration years left after the mutual option, doesn't whatever team he is on still have control over him?

He does not have arbitration years, he would be a free agent.

[Tim]

30 minutes ago, Backtobanks said:

I'm still having trouble understanding what Kim's options are if the mutual option is not agreed upon.  Are his only options Korea or not playing because he can't be a MLB FA until 2027?  Since he still has arbitration years left after the mutual option, doesn't whatever team he is on still have control over him?

There's a clause in these contracts that stipulates the team will not tender a contract through the normal process for players with less than six years of service time. So Kim will become a free agent prior to getting six years the same way Bellinger or Schwarber did. With the entry contracts the Asian players sign, it is simply agreed to in advance.

[Cuzi]

1 hour ago, Backtobanks said:

I'm still having trouble understanding what Kim's options are if the mutual option is not agreed upon.  Are his only options Korea or not playing because he can't be a MLB FA until 2027?  Since he still has arbitration years left after the mutual option, doesn't whatever team he is on still have control over him?

Kim was a FA when he signed with the Padres. International players that are at least 25 years old AND have played 6 years of professional baseball in a league recognized by MLB are FAs. He does not have to reach 6 years of MLB service time to become a FA. Kim will never go through the arbitration process.

Edited January 24, 2024 by Cuzi

[Backtobanks]

Thanks for the explanations.

 

[CubUgly]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:43 AM, Jssanto said:

It seems to me........A lot of who should/could/would/will/won't play third base talk and speculation since the winter meetings.

Madrigal with only a 2B arm?

Morel for his bat and accept his hopefully "ok" defense.

Matt Shaw, who has more time at other infield spots and likely needs more minor league at-bats?

Trade for someone not on the current roster (and what prospect do we lose)?

Play the recently acquired Busch against both R and L handers?

Hoerner has gold gloves at SS and 2B. Why is no one talking about moving him to third? Morel's better position is 2B. Madrigal's arm is better at 2B. I likely am just missing something.

IMHO Madrigal's defense is not the reason he cannot or should not be an everyday 3rd basemen - he was our best defensive option easily there last year - arm strength notwithstanding.  

I do think Horner could play third and play it very well, probably even better than Madrigal defensively, but he already sacrificed once for the team, tough ask for him to do it again, especially after winning a gold glove at his position.