Article: HOLY HORSEFEATHERS: Cubs Hire Craig Counsell as New Manager

[We Got The Whole 9]

I'm completely stunned. I've made it quite clear how impressed I have been with his managing; now don't go making me look like a dumbass, Craig!

[Bertz]

I'm probably the most vocal cheerleader for Hottovy around.  But the Brewers are one of the few teams arguably doing better in the pitching coach department.  Hottovy moving upstairs and Counsell bringing someone south with him from Milwaukee would be a real way to fight brain-drain from losing Breslow and potentially others.  

[gocubs218]

16 minutes ago, WhyCantWeWin said:

He was known for doing more with a lesser payroll in Milwaukee so that's a really plausible reality. 

No it’s not lol. He’s not coming here over the Mets to manage another Brewers situation again. 

[CubinNY]

2 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I'm probably the most vocal cheerleader for Hottovy around.  But the Brewers are one of the few teams arguably doing better in the pitching coach department.  Hottovy moving upstairs and Counsell bringing someone south with him from Milwaukee would be a real way to fight brain-drain from losing Breslow and potentially others.  

Maybe Ross is getting moved up too. He's under contract for 2024 with an option for 2025. 

[Jason Ross]

4 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

Maybe Ross is getting moved up too. He's under contract for 2024 with an option for 2025. 

Official statement from the Cubs was that he was "relieved of his managerial duties". He was let go.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

4 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

Maybe Ross is getting moved up too. He's under contract for 2024 with an option for 2025. 

Nope

 

[CubinNY]

5 minutes ago, Ding Dong Johnson said:

Nope

 

https://x.com/gjk815_jerry/status/1721614731906097366?s=20

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by CubinNY

[Rex Buckingham]

Anyone else think the newest member is a Brewer fan?

[Bobson Dugnutt]

22 minutes ago, Rex Buckingham said:

Anyone else think the newest member is a Brewer fan?

Hahahaha

[Irrelevant Dude]

31 minutes ago, Rex Buckingham said:

Anyone else think the newest member is a Brewer fan?

That depends whether you think David Ross is a Brewers fan now.

[Derwood]

I'm more excited about Ross going away than Counsell coming in. I'm not sure where/how the narrative started about Counsell being the next big thing, but outside of decent success with a small market team (which is more about the front office doing well with a lower payroll than anything else), what am I missing? What does Counsell do better than "name your average major league manager here"?

[Jason Ross]

21 minutes ago, Derwood said:

I'm more excited about Ross going away than Counsell coming in. I'm not sure where/how the narrative started about Counsell being the next big thing, but outside of decent success with a small market team (which is more about the front office doing well with a lower payroll than anything else), what am I missing? What does Counsell do better than "name your average major league manager here"?

From the outside looking in, first, Craig Counsell has, perhaps, the best staff in baseball. The Brewers have, routinely, under Counsell, turned bad fielding catchers into elite framing monsters (Grandal, Narvaez and Contreras all improved significantly). They've done a really good job in developing and getting the best out of arms at every level, and part of that is likely due to his staff at the MLB level. He's been willing to put trust into young players, both arms and hitters. And his in game moves seem pretty solid (though I think there's a degree of not making anyone happy here, too, in that managers usually take the blame when things go bad, but players get the credit on the inverse). 

I expect a few of that staff is coming over. I expect his in-game stuff with be pretty good. The Cub shave a handful of young players coming up, so a manager who's had a lot of work with younger players over the last few years is also probably something the Cubs liked. I think combined, that's a pretty good thing over most others. We'll see who comes over, who gets what spots and how things sus out from here. But I'd guess that's a good chunk of it.

[Bertz]

So what do we think Counsell replacing Ross means for the roster itself?  Especially since we don't watch day-to-day it can be hard to separate what the FO is pushing for vs. what the manager is pushing for, but it's still interesting to think about.  Some initial guesses:

- The team is less likely to carry 3 catchers.  It's a bit tough to say how much of this was a specific response to having Willson Contreras as our main guy, but having 3 catchers feels like it was a David Ross request

- In the bullpen, less of a focus on funk/being able to keep the ball on the ground and more of a focus on pure stuff and being able to beat hitters in the strike zone.  So e.g. expect Luke Little to get more shots at MLB innings than Brandon Hughes

- Not that Ross didn't care about it, but for Counsell the platoon advantage is key.  I remember multiple Alzolay and Wesneski blowup starts because Counsell stuffed like 7 lefties into the lineup

- Catcher framing über alles.  That said, he and his staff were able to take terrible framers and not just make them solid but make them absolutely fantastic.  Very quickly too

- Related to the catcher framing thing, do generally expect a continued emphasis on defense pretty much all over the diamond.  So if you're team "play Christopher Morel at 3B" maybe brace for some disappointment 

- This is the one I feel least comfortable ascribing specifically to Counsell, but his Brewer teams generally had a lot of dongs and a lot of strikeouts.  I'm sure they didn't want the strikeouts, but priority 1 was dongs.   And with the Brewers' limited resources the strikeouts were the cost

Anything else we can think of?

[SOFNR]

That's pretty exciting. He's definitely an upgrade and I hope this signifies the Ricketts would like to start winning again. I think the impact of this ultimately still depends on how they approach FA. But I'm now more optimistic about FA then I've been in a long time.  

[Jason Ross]

1 minute ago, Bertz said:

So what do we think Counsell replacing Ross means for the roster itself?  Especially since we don't watch day-to-day it can be hard to separate what the FO is pushing for vs. what the manager is pushing for, but it's still interesting to think about.  Some initial guesses:

- The team is less likely to carry 3 catchers.  It's a bit tough to say how much of this was a specific response to having Willson Contreras as our main guy, but having 3 catchers feels like it was a David Ross request

- In the bullpen, less of a focus on funk/being able to keep the ball on the ground and more of a focus on pure stuff and being able to beat hitters in the strike zone.  So e.g. expect Luke Little to get more shots at MLB innings than Brandon Hughes

- Not that Ross didn't care about it, but for Counsell the platoon advantage is key.  I remember multiple Alzolay and Wesneski blowup starts because Counsell stuffed like 7 lefties into the lineup

- Catcher framing über alles.  That said, he and his staff were able to take terrible framers and not just make them solid but make them absolutely fantastic.  Very quickly too

- Related to the catcher framing thing, do generally expect a continued emphasis on defense pretty much all over the diamond.  So if you're team "play Christopher Morel at 3B" maybe brace for some disappointment 

- This is the one I feel least comfortable ascribing specifically to Counsell, but his Brewer teams generally had a lot of dongs and a lot of strikeouts.  I'm sure they didn't want the strikeouts, but priority 1 was dongs.   And with the Brewers' limited resources the strikeouts were the cost

Anything else we can think of?

I think a bigger dedication to youth, and especially, Pete Crow-Armstrong. The Brewers ran out a handful of young players, and Counsell was entirely willing to throw them in the thick of things; both BP and in the batting lineup. Frelick was immediately inserted into the middle of the lineup, Bryce Turang put up a 60 wRC+ but got 450 PA's because he played strong defense at a premium position, etc...but he also played Jace Peterson a bunch at 3b due to his defense as you mentioned.

I expect some of this was necessity and the Brewers choices were limited. I also expect Counsell is more of an advocate for younger players where as I'm not always certain Ross was (not that he refused to play guys, but it felt like his trust circle was hard to get into).

I'd probably think PCA is more likely now to break camp. Lots of offseason will change that equation, but I think Counsell would be a bigger fan of PCA's defense and speed with his bat that has some holes than Ross would have been.

[We Got The Whole 9]

13 minutes ago, 1908_Cubs said:

From the outside looking in, first, Craig Counsell has, perhaps, the best staff in baseball. The Brewers have, routinely, under Counsell, turned bad fielding catchers into elite framing monsters (Grandal, Narvaez and Contreras all improved significantly). They've done a really good job in developing and getting the best out of arms at every level, and part of that is likely due to his staff at the MLB level. He's been willing to put trust into young players, both arms and hitters. And his in game moves seem pretty solid (though I think there's a degree of not making anyone happy here, too, in that managers usually take the blame when things go bad, but players get the credit on the inverse). 

I expect a few of that staff is coming over. I expect his in-game stuff with be pretty good. The Cub shave a handful of young players coming up, so a manager who's had a lot of work with younger players over the last few years is also probably something the Cubs liked. I think combined, that's a pretty good thing over most others. We'll see who comes over, who gets what spots and how things sus out from here. But I'd guess that's a good chunk of it.

It worked pretty well last time we poached a good Manager from a small market team 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

4 minutes ago, Bertz said:

So what do we think Counsell replacing Ross means for the roster itself?  Especially since we don't watch day-to-day it can be hard to separate what the FO is pushing for vs. what the manager is pushing for, but it's still interesting to think about.  Some initial guesses:

- The team is less likely to carry 3 catchers.  It's a bit tough to say how much of this was a specific response to having Willson Contreras as our main guy, but having 3 catchers feels like it was a David Ross request

- In the bullpen, less of a focus on funk/being able to keep the ball on the ground and more of a focus on pure stuff and being able to beat hitters in the strike zone.  So e.g. expect Luke Little to get more shots at MLB innings than Brandon Hughes

- Not that Ross didn't care about it, but for Counsell the platoon advantage is key.  I remember multiple Alzolay and Wesneski blowup starts because Counsell stuffed like 7 lefties into the lineup

- Catcher framing über alles.  That said, he and his staff were able to take terrible framers and not just make them solid but make them absolutely fantastic.  Very quickly too

- Related to the catcher framing thing, do generally expect a continued emphasis on defense pretty much all over the diamond.  So if you're team "play Christopher Morel at 3B" maybe brace for some disappointment 

- This is the one I feel least comfortable ascribing specifically to Counsell, but his Brewer teams generally had a lot of dongs and a lot of strikeouts.  I'm sure they didn't want the strikeouts, but priority 1 was dongs.   And with the Brewers' limited resources the strikeouts were the cost

Anything else we can think of?

 

• Counsell has managed multiple elite relievers and done so in ways that don't always adhere to traditional closer roles, but my limited perspective is that it has always been very clear who was at the top of the food chain and in what order, and had several really good relievers to pick from.  I expect Alzolay if healthy to be part of that inner circle, but maybe it's a little more likely that there's a no-questions-asked really good RP added instead of someone who maybe has more minor warts.
• Adding on to the platoons bit, there's a lot of RHH on the fringes of the roster, I wouldn't be surprised if this hastens the exit of one of Wisdom or Madrigal in favor of a LH IF(maybe it just means Mastrobuoni is first choice), and mayyybe it increases the odds of a RHH CF to hedge against Tauchman regression and PCA growing pains?
• The Brewers stole an above average amount of bases last year, but had fewer steals and attempts than the Cubs and those attempts were slightly more concentrated.  Maybe there's a little less interest in a player who only adds marginal SB value if he's gonna attempt 5-10 fewer steals per year.

[Billy62]

     I know every year there are surprises. But then there are sometimes surprises that leave you speechless. This is a front office masterstroke. As a fan, I feel like we won the lottery.

[stitchface]

oh, but that batting stance . . . ugh.