Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

[OleMissCub]

More stats showing the absolute absurdity of this selection:

 

According to Baseball Reference, his HOF Monitor score is 67. This ties him with Mookie Betts (already), Javy Lopez, and Brian McCann. Random players with higher HOF Monitor scores: Vinny Castilla, Paul O'Neill, Giancarlo Stanton, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Dante Bichette, Brad Ausmus, Moises Alou, Aramis Ramirez, Mo Vaughn, Joe Carter, Garrett Anderson, and so on.

 

Also on Baseball-Reference, his JAWS score has him listed as the 74th All-Time best RF, behind illustrious players like Shin-Soo Choo, Nelson Cruz, Shawn Green, and Reggie Sanders.

[imb]

while i find much of the HoF debate stuff really tiring - i never in a million years would have guessed harold baines would have gotten in

[Bull]

Enough Harold Baines talk! Lee Smith is a stinkin hall of famer.

 

One of my earliest childhood memories was the day I learned the n-word. My grandfather moved over from Scotland and had a thick Scottish brogue. When the cubs would get into trouble in the 8th he would yell as only a Scotsman can “Brrrring in the big N—.” Grandpa understood high-leverage situations much better than he understood human equality. He was old-world blue collar (a tank mechanic in the British army during WW2), it was 1983 and I was 6. Grandpa loved Lee Smith. This second round draft pick meant hope for the future. He loved the Cubs. It was better than having to hear about those bloody Irish. He’d put the rabbit ears up on the tv in his garage to catch WGN (in South Bend, IN) and sit with his pipe and his beer and watch the game shirtless every afternoon after getting off from the factory at 2:30. He usually only caught the last few innings, but that was fine by him, that when his favorite player, Smitty, pitched. My mother was second generation, rejected her heritage and embraced this crazy thing we Americans call civil rights. She didn’t know grandpa shared his vocabulary and his Miller with me.

 

Lee Smith is a legend from my childhood. I admired his raw strength, his sweaty brow, his max effort delivery, and that he was something good about a 5th place Cubs team. The next year he saved 33 games and the season. Lee Smith made me a Cubs fan. He was also instrumental in causing me ask, “mommy what does n- mean,” just before getting my mouth washed out with soap.

 

Grandpa passed 8 years ago yesterday, but he would be happy to know that his favorite player made it to the hall.

[OleMissCub]

while i find much of the HoF debate stuff really tiring - i never in a million years would have guessed harold baines would have gotten in

 

Indeed.

 

The guys on the Effectively Wild podcast (the BP podcast) have never really been much to talk about the HOF stuff, but in their latest pod they were pretty fired up about how absolutely obscene this is.

 

"Yes, Baines could be a HOFer....if you doubled his WAR"

[gflore34]

Enough Harold Baines talk! Lee Smith is a stinkin hall of famer.

 

One of my earliest childhood memories was the day I learned the n-word. My grandfather moved over from Scotland and had a thick Scottish brogue. When the cubs would get into trouble in the 8th he would yell as only a Scotsman can “Brrrring in the big N—.” Grandpa understood high-leverage situations much better than he understood human equality. He was old-world blue collar (a tank mechanic in the British army during WW2), it was 1983 and I was 6. Grandpa loved Lee Smith. This second round draft pick meant hope for the future. He loved the Cubs. It was better than having to hear about those bloody Irish. He’d put the rabbit ears up on the tv in his garage to catch WGN (in South Bend, IN) and sit with his pipe and his beer and watch the game shirtless every afternoon after getting off from the factory at 2:30. He usually only caught the last few innings, but that was fine by him, that when his favorite player, Smitty, pitched. My mother was second generation, rejected her heritage and embraced this crazy thing we Americans call civil rights. She didn’t know grandpa shared his vocabulary and his Miller with me.

 

Lee Smith is a legend from my childhood. I admired his raw strength, his sweaty brow, his max effort delivery, and that he was something good about a 5th place Cubs team. The next year he saved 33 games and the season. Lee Smith made me a Cubs fan. He was also instrumental in causing me ask, “mommy what does n- mean,” just before getting my mouth washed out with soap.

 

Grandpa passed 8 years ago yesterday, but he would be happy to know that his favorite player made it to the hall.

 

Great story, I remember Lee Smith although, I did not have as much confidence in him as your Grandfather. Oftentimes his saves seemed shaky to me, never 3 up, 3 down, always some drama.

[Banedon]

while i find much of the HoF debate stuff really tiring - i never in a million years would have guessed harold baines would have gotten in

 

Indeed.

 

The guys on the Effectively Wild podcast (the BP podcast) have never really been much to talk about the HOF stuff, but in their latest pod they were pretty fired up about how absolutely obscene this is.

 

"Yes, Baines could be a HOFer....if you doubled his WAR"

 

Meh. The Hall of Fame means so little to me at this point that I can't fathom getting worked up over it.

[Rob]

I've always been a "big Hall" guy, who thinks almost every borderline case should probably get the nod.

 

So I'm trying to look at this bizarre election of Harold Baines and think about what it could mean for guys like Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Andruw Jones, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, etc... It's a lot harder to keep guys like that out when guys like Harold Baines are in the Hall. So I guess I'm alright with it.

 

That said, the utter sanctimony of the Hall of Fame voters keeping out guys like Bonds and Clemens has really turned me off on the whole thing.

[jersey cubs fan]

I've always been a "big Hall" guy, who thinks almost every borderline case should probably get the nod.

 

So I'm trying to look at this bizarre election of Harold Baines and think about what it could mean for guys like Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Andruw Jones, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, etc... It's a lot harder to keep guys like that out when guys like Harold Baines are in the Hall. So I guess I'm alright with it.

 

That said, the utter sanctimony of the Hall of Fame voters keeping out guys like Bonds and Clemens has really turned me off on the whole thing.

The issue is Harold Baines only got in because he got the "he definitely didn't do steroids" vote from the Morganistans and "he was on my team" vote from LaRussa and Reinsdorf.

 

It's not about making the Hall more inclusive and will not help other borderline cases.

[Rob]

I've always been a "big Hall" guy, who thinks almost every borderline case should probably get the nod.

 

So I'm trying to look at this bizarre election of Harold Baines and think about what it could mean for guys like Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Andruw Jones, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, etc... It's a lot harder to keep guys like that out when guys like Harold Baines are in the Hall. So I guess I'm alright with it.

 

That said, the utter sanctimony of the Hall of Fame voters keeping out guys like Bonds and Clemens has really turned me off on the whole thing.

The issue is Harold Baines only got in because he got the "he definitely didn't do steroids" vote from the Morganistans and "he was on my team" vote from LaRussa and Reinsdorf.

 

It's not about making the Hall more inclusive and will not help other borderline cases.

 

In the short term, I agree that it doesn't do much. But it should help the crowd of primary DHs. I imagine Edgar gets in this year, and Papi should follow him without sucking up a spot for 3-4 years while writers debate whether they can put DHs in the Hall.

 

And even if you consider him a RF, I imagine it's a lot easier to check the box for a guy like Larry Walker when you know Baines is in.

[champaignchris]

I’m not a fan of relievers in the Hall, but if they must be in there, Smith should be one of them.

 

From ‘82 to ‘91, he had a 2.29 ERA while averaging 90 innings pitched, 31 saves, and 92 Ks to 33 BBs.

 

In 1983, he had a 1.65 ERA over 103.1 innings pitched.

 

Lee Smith is part of my favorite series of horrible transactions in Cubs history:

 

In December 1987, 8 months after trading Dennis Eckersly (387 subsequent saves and HoF) for three minor leaguers who never made the Big Leagues, the Cubs traded Smith (298 subsequent saves and HoF) for Calvin Schiraldi and Al Nipper, both of whom were off the team by mid-‘89 and out of baseball by ‘91.

 

After suffering through 1988 with a way, way past his prime Goose Gossage as closer, the Cubs traded Rafael Palmeiro (3,000 hits, 500 HR, steroids, allegedly bangs your secondbaseman’s wife) AND Jamie Moyer (269 wins, old) for Mitch Williams who only lasted 2 seasons with the Cubs.

 

So basically Jim Frey tore down a good chunk of the prospects Dallas Green had built up to chase after a closer despite having two future Hall of Fame closers already on the roster.

 

Edit: Green made the Eck trade. Frey made the Smith and Mitch Williams trades.

Edited December 11, 2018 by champaignchris

[OleMissCub]

I've always been a "big Hall" guy, who thinks almost every borderline case should probably get the nod.

 

So I'm trying to look at this bizarre election of Harold Baines and think about what it could mean for guys like Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Andruw Jones, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, etc... It's a lot harder to keep guys like that out when guys like Harold Baines are in the Hall. So I guess I'm alright with it.

 

That said, the utter sanctimony of the Hall of Fame voters keeping out guys like Bonds and Clemens has really turned me off on the whole thing.

The issue is Harold Baines only got in because he got the "he definitely didn't do steroids" vote from the Morganistans and "he was on my team" vote from LaRussa and Reinsdorf.

 

It's not about making the Hall more inclusive and will not help other borderline cases.

 

Correct. You had his former owner, former GM, former manager, and a few teammates on that Committee. This absolutely reeks of the late 60's/early 70's Vets Committee putting in their old friends with selections like Chick Hafey, Jim Bottomley, or Jesse Haines.

[OleMissCub]

Does Todd Helton get voted in? I think he eventually gets in, but will he be voted in?

 

He's 19th All-Time in OPS and 19th in Doubles. 133 Career OPS+. Once had a single season where he led the league in hits, doubles, RBI, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and Total Bases. He was also a very proficient fielder. Career WAR of 60.1 and his HOF Monitor score is 175 (Baines' was 66...)

 

People holding Coors Field against him (which IMO is somewhat valid) is the only reason I see the voters not voting him in.

[sneakypower]

i'd vote for him, but worth noting his career road stats are basically Mark Grace plus a dash of SLG

 

great hitter regardless but specifically his power output largely a byproduct of Coors

[OleMissCub]

i'd vote for him, but worth noting his career road stats are basically Mark Grace plus a dash of SLG

 

great hitter regardless but specifically his power output largely a byproduct of Coors

 

That's a really good comparison actually. Incidentally, Helton wore No. 17 because of Gracie.

[David]

i'd vote for him, but worth noting his career road stats are basically Mark Grace plus a dash of SLG

 

great hitter regardless but specifically his power output largely a byproduct of Coors

 

That's a really good comparison actually. Incidentally, Helton wore No. 17 because of Gracie.

 

puke

[OleMissCub]

I'm thinking this year's class is going to be Rivera, Mussina, Halladay, and Edgar.

 

I'll be interested to see what numbers Pettitte and Helton get.

[OleMissCub]

i'd vote for him, but worth noting his career road stats are basically Mark Grace plus a dash of SLG

 

great hitter regardless but specifically his power output largely a byproduct of Coors

 

That's a really good comparison actually. Incidentally, Helton wore No. 17 because of Gracie.

 

puke

 

you leave that old gin-blossomed drunk alone.

[Sammy Sofa]

I’m not a fan of relievers in the Hall

 

I never understand this.

[imb]

I’m not a fan of relievers in the Hall

 

I never understand this.

 

yeah i dont get it either, but probably because i dont think of the hall as just a WAR leaderboard.

 

the argument guys like keith law use is that most relievers (hoffman, rivera etc) were just failed starters. the idea being that any failed starter could be a successful closer. And yet there are hundreds of failed starters every year who just disappear and are never heard from again while teams like the cubs spend 10 million on kintzlers and duensings.

[Sammy Sofa]

Plus it's been such a vital position on all teams now for so long. At this point it's kinda like someone deciding they don't like seeing LFers in the Hall since that's where you dump OFers who can't really field.

[champaignchris]

I’m not a fan of relievers in the Hall

 

I never understand this.

 

I overstated my feelings on this. I should have said, I’m not a fan of closers who racked up huge save totals by only pitching 65 innings a season, often in less than high leverage situations. They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.

 

I have no problem with Gossage or Wilhelm in the Hall. I will have no problem when Rivera goes in the Hall, probably on the first ballot next year. I’m less enamored with Finger’s, Sutter’s and Eckersly’s resumes, but understand the other factors in each case that made them appealing to Hall voters.

 

It’s Trevor Hoffman that bothers me. Guy only pitched 1089 innings in an 18 year career. Surpassed 75 innings in a season only 3 times. He pitched for a long time and got a lot of saves, but I don’t see anything particularly special about him that differentiates him from Frank Rodriguez, John Franco, Billy Wagner, or Joe Nathan. If you think all these other guys should be in the Hall, too, that’s fine.

 

Also, based on which relievers ante getting in now, Dan Quisenberry should be in the Hall, too. He was unbelievable from about 80 to 87. Was in the top 5 in Cy balloting 5 times in that stretch.

[gflore34]

Anyone else remember thinking oh horsefeathers when Garvey came up with Wiggins on in the 1984 NLCS game 4?

[cwood218]

I’m not a fan of relievers in the Hall

 

I never understand this.

 

...They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.

 

This is my problem with putting them in the Hall. You can take any teams top 3 or 4 starters and you would have the same or better results than the best relievers. Anytime 100+ players are equal or better than you ... you're not a HOFer.

[UMFan83]

LaRussa is such a sanctimonious piece of horsefeathers

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25518933/tony-la-russa-calls-harold-baines-detractors-weak

[Cubfanintheknow]

Best Lee Smith save ever.

 

 

I remember watching this live and wondering how the hell he was still standing up,