Bulls Offseason Thread

[RynoRules]

That's the thing - it wasn't just the FO that had tired of his doctrinaire approach; the players were reportedly done as well.

 

I admire Thibs work ethic and mind for the game. But he was also stubbornly attached to his approach, impractical, and not realistic about players and their physical and mental limitations.

 

Firing him is not in and of itself an error. Let's see who replaces him.

[Pushfrog98]

True or false: Bulls have the worst front office in the nba.

[Guest]

True or false: Bulls have the worst front office in the nba.

This is pretty ridiculous. They've been able to put together good to nearly great teams for a decent run now.

[Pushfrog98]

True or false: Bulls have the worst front office in the nba.

This is pretty ridiculous. They've been able to put together good to nearly great teams for a decent run now.

I thought it was ridiculous as well, yet I'm entrenched in a facebook argument with a guy who thinks he's "the next Bill Simons" (way to set your benchmark high).

He's too ignorant to really debate with, but he replied to my post, so I feel I have to defend my own honor.

[ARCubsFan]

The National Media's love for Thibodeau is hilarious. Keep using meaningless regular season records. All that matters is that 23-28 postseason record in the lol-worthy Eastern Conference. Good luck in the West you crazy bastard.

[scarey]

The National Media's love for Thibodeau is hilarious. Keep using meaningless regular season records. All that matters is that 23-28 postseason record in the lol-worthy Eastern Conference. Good luck in the West you crazy bastard.

 

You throw around his record in "lol-worthy Eastern Conference" playoffs... but he lost 3/4 of those years to Lebron...

[Banedon]

To me this sounds just like a divorce...plenty of blame for both sides. I think the lack of interest in Thibs from other teams is pretty telling, too.

 

I'm really kinda down on the whole NBA though, so I'm having a hard time working up a lot of emotion over this.

[Guest]

The National Media's love for Thibodeau is hilarious. Keep using meaningless regular season records. All that matters is that 23-28 postseason record in the lol-worthy Eastern Conference. Good luck in the West you crazy bastard.

 

Ahh yes, that all-important playoff record with so many games without Derrick Rose.

[Guest]

http://yhoo.it/1ECrGM0

 

Paxson wanted Doug Collins instead of Thibodeau.

[Banedon]

http://yhoo.it/1ECrGM0

 

Paxson wanted Doug Collins instead of Thibodeau.

 

The sensitivity of the front office reminds me of Krause.

 

''Players and coaches don't win championships; organizations win championships.''

[RynoRules]

You're correct that they are sensitive. But it is also fairly unusual to be attacked on national television during one of your games by a color guy who is arguably acting on behalf of your coach. That happened a couple of times and JVG took to the air again last night to take a few more shots at GarPax. I understand why they'd feel compelled to defend themselves. Edited May 29, 2015 by RynoRules

[jersey cubs fan]

You're correct that they are sensitive. But it is also fairly unusual to be attacked on national television during one of your games by a color guy who is arguably acting on behalf of your coach.

 

http://images.hngn.com/data/images/full/45405/chicago-bears-quarterback-jay-cutler.png?w=650

 

It's not that unusual.

[RynoRules]

Ha - I guess it isn't that unusual in our zip codes.

 

Point is that it doesn't bother me that Gar and Pax were straight about what the problems were. JVG - troll that he is (double entendre) - even admitted that they supported him publicly through-out. His beef was that he thought they didn't support Thibs behind the scenes. So in other words, its possible no one would have known about the alleged lack of support had JVG not made a big deal about it during a game he was covering.

 

And what did that alleged lack of support look like exactly? The only thing we have heard about is the minute limitations, which were based in objective data and scientific studies concluding that quality outweighs quantity and the cumulative affects of overuse is decidedly negative. What else is there? Don't make big, broad, nasty generalizations unless you are willing to back that up with specific examples.

[wolf stansson]

True or false: Bulls have the worst front office in the nba.

You know the Knick and Nets exist, right? The Bulls under Paxson have always been savvy roster builders. Gibson, Butler, Mirotic, Nocioni, Asik...they find contributors and sometimes stars where other teams don't.

[Banedon]

I saw someone on twitter suggest that Thibs might end up with the Knicks after waiting a year, or assisting for a year somewhere.

 

That would just be a terrible match, imo. Not only do Phil and Thibs have vastly different attitudes...but RIP Melo's knees.

[Guest]

I mean GarPax maybe didn't handle their relationship with Thibs well, but they didn't choke him either, so... Progress.

[Pushfrog98]

Here was his reply to my comment about them bringing in some key bench players that helped them win when Rose was out:

None of those moves have panned out though. If you're fine with treading above water or getting beat by Lebron, year after year then I guess they are doing a great job. All the moves you talked about are what's wrong with the Bulls. They are cheap. Really cheap. Most of the scrap heap guys were only good because Thibs coached um up. What have they done since they left? Butler, I'll give you that but Mirotic is still a work in progress. They aren't solid when it matters and that's not on the coach. It's on the personnel for the most part. They're one of the worst. I want them to be good because it would be great for the city but Gar n Pax need to move on. Example. Cubs got Theo and completely have turned things around. Starts with management. Not the coach. Pax has run 5 coaches out of the building since Jordan left. Some even on Christmas Eve. Scrap heap won't win you titles. Never has, never will.

 

This guy is a Lakers fan, btw.

[UMFan83]

In terms of building a roster, GarPax is solid for the most part. Definitely not perfect, but since the Baby Bulls arrived in 2004-2005 (im going back to then even though Gar wasn't the GM for part of it, just Pax), they've completely turned over the roster that started with a core of Gordon, Deng, Curry, Good Hinrich, Chandler, transitioned it to a core of Rose, Deng, Noah, and now Jimmy, Rose, Noah and maybe next year Mirotic. They've stayed competitive, making the playoffs in 10 of the last 11 years. They've had maybe 2 years where they were considered fringe contenders going into the playoffs (06-07 and 14-15) and 2 years where they were legit contenders (10-11 and 11-12), 4 years where they had scrappy bunches just barely making the playoffs (04-05, 05-06, 08-09, 09-10), and 2 seasons where they could have been contenders if their superstar wasn't injured (12-13, 13-14). They've drafted really well relative to position, very few completely botched picks (Tyrus and maybe Teague although he was a high risk/high reward gamble). Their FA signings have been a mixed bag..most of the good ones being scrapheap players that performed above expectations. Their highest profile FA signings (Ben Wallace and Boozer) have been pretty bad, Wallace especially because he was their top choice (as opposed to Boozer and Gasol who were backup plans) and it cost them a player who would be highly productive over the next several seasons (Chandler). Trades have been few and far between, several of them being simply salary dumps (Hinrich, Korver, Deng). The Curry trade to NY was an absolute steal that is still paying dividends with Noah, Chandler to NO for PJ Brown was half salary dump, have getting a backup big, and I really liked the Salmons/Miller trade even though they were both short term options. Also getting anyone to take Wallace even if it meant giving up a productive but useless in a down year Joe Smith was good.

 

The biggest problem with GarPax comes from organizational culture. I think the Bulls have a bad perception among the league. Media guys openly call JR cheap despite the fact that Reinsdorf has killed their biggest arguments over the years (unwilling to pay luxury tax, unwilling to pay players/coaches not to play for him even if its best for the team), announcers like JVG are not afraid to rip the Bulls FO on national TV. There are reports of Pax grapping VDN by his tie, then you have the rather unprofessional press release (imo) yesterday announcing Thibs dismissal. And there are rumors floated around that the Bulls were willing to wait until all the openings were filled before letting Thibs go, which possibly/probably arent true but the fact that they were somewhat believable says a lot about the FO.

 

I am still not 100% sure LeBron, Wade and Bosh to Miami was some blood pact that conceived at the Olympics. I think the reports about LeBron coming to Chicago were true, I think his first move was to convince him and Wade to come play for the Bulls. Wade was legit interested in coming to Chicago because of the hometown pull, but in the end couldn't pull the trigger and then made some quotes in the media about the Bulls FO being unloyal to their guys, etc. Once Wade backed out, LeBron met with the Bulls, who everyone suggests told him that his entourage wasn't going to get treated like they were in Cleveland, LeBron wasn't going to run the show, etc (I want to point out that none of this is proven fact, just speculation), people even joked that he wasn't going to be allowed to wear his headband. Whatever the case, after that, LeBron reportedly tried to get Bosh to come with him to Cleveland, but Bosh didn't want to play there, so LeBron decided to team up with the other 2 in Miami. I believe the Bulls FO reputation (going all the way up to JR) was what ultimately killed LeBron (and Wade) to Chicago. Maybe it's a crackpot theory, I don't know. But Wade did have questions about the Bulls loyalty. Other high profile FA's targeted by the Bulls have gone elsewhere. It could be the weather (Howard), it could be the money (Melo), but whatever it is they have chosen to play elsewhere. Small sample size, and I think the Bulls were right to go for it each time, but ultimately the Bulls had to settle for backup options.

 

I am not even sure where I am going with this. I tried to show present both sides evenly, but there is probably an anti-GarPax bias in my ramblings. I am not necessarily a 'clean house on the FO' guy but there are some disturbing things going on inside the Bulls org, enough to muddy their pretty good, but not great, track record of building rosters.

[Guest]

I don't think they are perfect by any means. I wouldn't go anywhere near calling them the best FO in the NBA. However, anyone calling them the worst is out of their mind.

[Flames24Rulz]

My issue with them is that they have not once sold high on a player, and haven't gotten any legitimate compensation to show for it. They've constantly overvalued their own guys to the point where they've spurned offers for Kobe and KG. It was stupid at the time and it looks absolutely ridiculous now. At one point, Tyrus Thomas actually did have some semblance of value in this league. Instead of acting on it, they thought he was part of "the core" and, well, that didn't really work out that well for them.

 

Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Noah, hell, even Thibs...the list is just going to continue to grow too. Out of all of those guys, they've ended up with McDermott and a Kings pick in a few years, while not getting a legitimate difference maker when they've had several opportunities to.

 

Drafting Jimmy was a home run, and Taj turned out to be pretty decent, although I think he's overpaid now. But Marquis Teague when Thibs wanted Draymond Green? That's bad. I'm just hoping that if Hoiberg fails, GarPax are actually held accountable for once.

[RynoRules]

I don't get this "loyalty" issue where the Bulls are concerned. They are hardly the first winning franchise to send a coach packing when it isn't working out or to experience strained relations between the FO and the guy on the bench. Just off the top of my head:

 

- The Warriors just went through this with Mark Jackson and they are on their way to an NBA title.

- Doc Rivers couldn't wait to get away from Danny Ainge.

- When the Heat periodically struggled their were rumors that Riley was getting his whistle ready and would send Spolestra packing.

- Krause and Jackson managed to win 6 titles while largely not caring much for each other.

- Pat Riley - the guy these players all seem to want to play for - has burned bridges in both LA and NY (see also below)

- Larry Brown and the Pistons

- Rick Adelman and the Blazers

- Etc, etc, etc.....

 

The only "winning situation" I can think of where there hasn't been this kind of stuff is San Antonio, and one wonders whether that is because there simply isn't much media there to report it.

 

Point is there are pretty much no "shangri la" situations out there. It would be nice if everyone in the FO and on the bench sat together, held hands, and whispered sweet nothings to each other, but the chances of that happening are slim to none. If LeBron and Wade really rejected Chicago because they perceived a loyalty issue or some other disfunction...well I guess I'd ask how they feel about that now after LeBron left and Riley fired off some shots at him in the press.

 

Its fun for the media types to kick GarPax around some and spread rumors that none of the really good and cool players want to play here. They all want to go to Miami, where the weather is warm and the clubs are bouncing, or LA because they have delusions about being stars and part of the set out there.

 

That's not something the Bulls FO can change, and in spite of it they do a very good job getting talent in here and keeping it. Before his knees imploded they re-signed one of the game's 5 best players to a longterm deal. Noah - with a personality and game that was/is absolutely perfect for a team like the Clippers (I love LA!!!) - also stuck around. Taj - who is from LA - stuck around too. They drafted Jimmy Butler, who was roundly panned through out the internet (including on this board, IIRC) as a meh talent. He's very likely going to stay when he could easily cash-in with one of the league's sexier cities.

 

The Bulls FO has done a fine job under the circumstances. Have they done a fantastic job? Probably not, though you could legitimately argue that Rose's knees are the difference between Pax having 4 rings and 3.

Edited May 29, 2015 by RynoRules

[Sammy Sofa]

My issue with them is that they have not once sold high on a player, and haven't gotten any legitimate compensation to show for it. They've constantly overvalued their own guys to the point where they've spurned offers for Kobe and KG. It was stupid at the time and it looks absolutely ridiculous now. At one point, Tyrus Thomas actually did have some semblance of value in this league. Instead of acting on it, they thought he was part of "the core" and, well, that didn't really work out that well for them.

 

Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Noah, hell, even Thibs...the list is just going to continue to grow too. Out of all of those guys, they've ended up with McDermott and a Kings pick in a few years, while not getting a legitimate difference maker when they've had several opportunities to.

 

Drafting Jimmy was a home run, and Taj turned out to be pretty decent, although I think he's overpaid now. But Marquis Teague when Thibs wanted Draymond Green? That's bad. I'm just hoping that if Hoiberg fails, GarPax are actually held accountable for once.

 

Why would a competitive team regularly sell high on players they need to stay competitive?

[Andy]

Swinging and missing on Tyrus over Aldridge is a fair criticism, but I don't know if you can say they didn't sell high. They did get a pretty decent first-round pick out of Thomas, although the jury is out if what they did with it (McDermott) was smart.

 

That said, I frankly dislike the current FO. On the whole they still seem to operate on that Jerry Krause 'organizations win championships' garbage that is flat-out wrong.

[Guest]

True or false: Bulls have the worst front office in the nba.

You know the Knick and Nets exist, right? The Bulls under Paxson have always been savvy roster builders. Gibson, Butler, Mirotic, Nocioni, Asik...they find contributors and sometimes stars where other teams don't.

 

yeah, that's an outrageously easy (and dumb) true or false

[Flames24Rulz]

My issue with them is that they have not once sold high on a player, and haven't gotten any legitimate compensation to show for it. They've constantly overvalued their own guys to the point where they've spurned offers for Kobe and KG. It was stupid at the time and it looks absolutely ridiculous now. At one point, Tyrus Thomas actually did have some semblance of value in this league. Instead of acting on it, they thought he was part of "the core" and, well, that didn't really work out that well for them.

 

Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Noah, hell, even Thibs...the list is just going to continue to grow too. Out of all of those guys, they've ended up with McDermott and a Kings pick in a few years, while not getting a legitimate difference maker when they've had several opportunities to.

 

Drafting Jimmy was a home run, and Taj turned out to be pretty decent, although I think he's overpaid now. But Marquis Teague when Thibs wanted Draymond Green? That's bad. I'm just hoping that if Hoiberg fails, GarPax are actually held accountable for once.

 

Why would a competitive team regularly sell high on players they need to stay competitive?

 

To potentially get an actual difference maker? While it was clear that guys like Deng and Gordon were decent, I don't think anybody legitimately thought they were a first or even a second option on a championship team. The reluctance to trade their own guys that they drafted for proven stars like Kobe and KG will always be in my mind when it comes to this regime.