Rosenthal: David Ross to Cubs (2yr/$5M)

[sneakypower]

oh yea well i was an umpire, and i only ever called balls & strikes based on catcher actions

[JennieGarthAlgar]

Well I was a baseball announcer and I can say there's no such thing as "announcing ability", you just say what you see and think during a baseball game, after that point whether someone hears you or not is out of your control.

[chopsx9]

Can someone post the gif of Castillo stabbing at a pitch right down the middle that got called a ball please?

 

Sure and then post one that he reaches for 6 inches off the plate that's called a strike.

 

I'm not dismissing framing, it is certainly not without merit. I do think it's impact is currently being over estimated. However I also think it is a very teachable and acquirable skill - some players are always going to be better - but its not foot speed.

[flyseye]

There is no such thing as framing ability

 

This is beyond dumb. Coaches/instructors have recognized it and tried to work on it with catchers for years and years before it was ever a thing among advanced metric people.

I know I was a catcher.

 

Oh come on lol

 

Hahahahahahah!

 

They taught "pitch framing"" in Little League in the early 60's.

[Tracer Bullet]

There is no such thing as framing ability

 

This is beyond dumb. Coaches/instructors have recognized it and tried to work on it with catchers for years and years before it was ever a thing among advanced metric people.

I know I was a catcher.

 

Oh come on lol

 

Hey, Joe Morgan parlayed that logic into an emmy-award winning career.

[wvcbxl]

Muskat still has it as "reportedly", so I'm not giving up hope.

 

Confirmed yesterday. :-#

[MSG T]

]

 

They taught "pitch framing"" in Little League in the early 60's.

 

 

They taught it in the 70's too. My LL coach was the dad of a friend, he'd played in the Indians system in the 60's, as a catcher. He spent considerable time working with the catchers on how not to stab at the ball, not to "throw" your mitt at the ball but make smooth movements to it, how to try to always catch it with the fingers up and how, if you had to move your glove, to try to move it from out of the strike zone into the strike zone not the other way around. Now, those may not all be considered right or wrong now, but it's not like pitch framing is a new thing. They thought it helped 40-50 years ago.

 

 

Now, is it's value overblown? Likely, but it's not nothing. I'd consider it more of a tie breaker between two otherwise similar players than something to put at the forefront of rating a catcher. If Castillo and Ross were otherwise similar but Ross was a better framer, and their cost was similar, I'd take Ross. But there's no way I'd buy into a multiple win advantage for Ross just on framing.

[Lefty]

So we can start speculating on the "haul" for Castillo?

[Bull]

So we can start speculating on the "haul" for Castillo?

Of course! But we don't have much to work with.

 

I love that the Cubs' front office is so tight lipped, and that moves come out of nowhere, but the lack of rumors is hard.

 

My wife and I are from the same hometown, and "coming home for Christmas" has become synonymous with perusing the latest rumors and moves by the Cubs, and actually having time to post on NSBB, but this year it's quiet.

 

Oh well. I'd love to see them package Nobueno and Wood with Castillo and get back a solid left fielder and a slightly better Tommy LaStella.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I love that the Cubs' front office is so tight lipped, and that moves come out of nowhere,

 

lol, no

[Bull]

I love that the Cubs' front office is so tight lipped, and that moves come out of nowhere,

 

lol, no

Uh, let me make sure I'm doing this right...

 

Ha, yes?

 

Obnoxious: check

Contributing nothing: yup.

 

I think I got it.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I love that the Cubs' front office is so tight lipped, and that moves come out of nowhere,

 

lol, no

Uh, let me make sure I'm doing this right...

 

Ha, yes?

 

Obnoxious: check

Contributing nothing: yup.

 

I think I got it.

 

I am directly disputing your statement that they have been a quiet FO or that moves have come out of nowhere.

 

Virtually everything they've done has been telegraphed, and we've had several moves imploded after they were allegedly done through leaks.

 

They leak just as much as everybody else and then some. I know they're everybody's new bicycle, but sometimes the stuff people say is just completely contrary to what actually happens.

[jersey cubs fan]

I love that the Cubs' front office is so tight lipped, and that moves come out of nowhere,

 

lol, no

Uh, let me make sure I'm doing this right...

 

Ha, yes?

 

I'm not sure what you think you are referring to but even though this thread was started around the time it broke that they signed him, multiple media members were talking up the likelihood of the Cubs going after and/or signing David Ross for weeks before it actually happened. Same with Lester, same with Maddon, same with Montero.

[Guest]

Most (all?) of those leaks have come from the other team. My coffee maker could have predicted the cubs going after Maddon, Lester and Ross, and my coffee maker is an inanimate object. This front office is about as tight lipped as they come.

[Little Slide Rooter]

5 pages for a backup catcher. Eat your heart out Koyie Hill. Anyway, my personal take is that the stat gurus can convince me that David Ross is a great pickup as far as backup catchers go, but there's not enough sabermetric flavored kool-aid in the world to elicit any kind of emotion over it.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Most (all?) of those leaks have come from the other team. My coffee maker could have predicted the cubs going after Maddon, Lester and Ross, and my coffee maker is an inanimate object. This front office is about as tight lipped as they come.

 

Yep. They're super tight lipped, but all the leaks are everybody else, because they're so awesome and everyone else is so lame.

 

:roll:

 

They leak exactly as much as everyone else does. They tell things to reporters when they want things to get told. They deal with agents, other teams, and scouts, all of whom also talk to reporters.

[Some Guy]

Hi guys, first time emerging from a longtime lurk.

 

I'm here to say Castillo tremendously sucks (due to his framing inadequacies, of course), and I think he is unlikely to get much in trade. What he costs the pitchers in strike calls more than wipes out any positive value he provides with his throwing, blocking, or mediocre hitting.

 

The chart in this article shows the avg OPS that results after every count. It looks like one borderline strike/ball call means the difference of somewhere around .300 OPS points (on average, roughly, depending on how deep into the at bat it is). http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2014-09-15/whats-the-most-important-pitch-of-an-at-bat-mlb-hitters-offer-their-thoughts

 

According to BP, Montero + Ross gained 193 strike calls over actual in 2014, and Castillo lost 102. So compared to Montero+Ross, That's 295 times that Castillo turned the batter into a .900 OPS guy instead of .600.

 

If there were any potential Castillo-suitors left that didn't think about how costly a bad framer is, it seems hard for them to ignore it now, with how obviously the Cubs have banished him for that reason.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Some Guy

[Guest]

295 strikes is less than 2 per game. Now think of how much noise there are in a couple of pitches per game when it comes to something like framing. The pitches/repertoire of the pitchers themselves, the umpires and their biases, even time of day, the leverage during those gained/lost strikes, etc. There's a lot of noise.

 

That's not to say there is no effect, or that Castillo is not at the bottom when it comes to that effect, that much is pretty inarguable. But making sweeping conclusions about the entirety of a player's value is going too far. Friedman has been on the framing bandwagon longer than pretty much any GM out there, and he chose to ship off Butera(a decent framer) and keep Ellis(the worst framer this side of Castillo) as his backup catcher. Pierszynski(another below average framer) just went off the market after being intentionally acquired by a contender(STL) while better framers like Soto, Hundley, and Arencibia remain Free Agents.

 

Castillo is still cost controlled, kills LHP, and does a very good job controlling the running game. Framing may narrow his suitors a bit or mitigate his value to an interested party, but it doesn't make him valueless. I still don't like the move all that much because I think too many other teams have catchers of a similar value that they won't give up anything overly good to get Castillo(plus Ross being Lester's caddy hurts the current production further), but that doesn't mean Castillo "tremendously sucks".

[UMFan83]

Welcome to the board. Enjoying all the new posters that are bringing quality posts here. It drowns idiots like me out :)

[Guest]

Most (all?) of those leaks have come from the other team. My coffee maker could have predicted the cubs going after Maddon, Lester and Ross, and my coffee maker is an inanimate object. This front office is about as tight lipped as they come.

 

Yep. They're super tight lipped, but all the leaks are everybody else, because they're so awesome and everyone else is so lame.

 

:roll:

 

They leak exactly as much as everyone else does. They tell things to reporters when they want things to get told. They deal with agents, other teams, and scouts, all of whom also talk to reporters.

 

Thats some pretty stupid [expletive], so im assuming youre being sarcastic and actually agreeing with me.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Most (all?) of those leaks have come from the other team. My coffee maker could have predicted the cubs going after Maddon, Lester and Ross, and my coffee maker is an inanimate object. This front office is about as tight lipped as they come.

 

Yep. They're super tight lipped, but all the leaks are everybody else, because they're so awesome and everyone else is so lame.

 

:roll:

 

They leak exactly as much as everyone else does. They tell things to reporters when they want things to get told. They deal with agents, other teams, and scouts, all of whom also talk to reporters.

 

Thats some pretty stupid [expletive], so im assuming youre being sarcastic and actually agreeing with me.

 

Theo Epstein is definitely your new bicycle.

[Guest]

Well, that's cool.

 

Anyway, I never said they don't talk to the press at all. I said they were tight lipped, and that is true.

 

The Rangers were never once mentioned as a possible destination for Ryan Dempster until the trade was done. I can't really remember the Garza rumors, but I don't think Garza to the Rangers was leaked until it was about done. Samardzija to the A's was never rumored until the trade was complete. There are some examples of leaks that may have come from our front office like the Anibal Sanchez and Edwin Jackson contract offers, but overall this has been a major strong point of the front office so far. You're allowed to disagree, and I'm sure I can count on you for that, but you're wrong and its kind of annoying.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Garza to the Rangers was speculated for like 18 solid months.

 

It was widely known they were trying to trade Samardzija and Dempster.

[minnesotacubsfan]

you know who's not tight lipped? Freddie Gonzalez, that's who...

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2310169-fan-breaks-news-of-aj-pierzynski-signing-at-honeybaked-ham

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Could we get a Seth Smith for Castillo?