Offseason Rumors

[davell]

Just finished talking to a source, who was down in Orlando. Here are some interesting things he heard:

 

- Soler was discussed with 1 team specifically (speculation was Miami)

- Samardzija was discussed with both Los Angeles teams

- FO spoke to the agents for Josh Johnson, Kelly Johnson and Kevin Youkilis, and the discussions were more than casual

- Free agent CF Chris Young's agent is looking for a 3 year deal

 

Will pass on more when I hear more.

I'd hope the Angels would be bringing in a 3rd team, if they're going after Shark. Dodgers? I really want pitching as the main part of the deal and don't see Zack Lee as a lead piece. Love Urias, but damn.....He's TOO young to consider as a lead piece.

[KingCubsFan]

It's even happened to the Yankees.

 

The Yankees have never lost 375 games in a four-year span.

No, but they did lose 359.

 

I know it's crazy, but follow me for a minute. Maybe, just perhaps, (and again, I know I'm asking a lot here), there could have been something in between Pujols/Wilson and Stewart/LaHair.

Sure there is, but it wouldn't have made a difference, besides costing us one of the best prospects in the game and not allowing us to acquire Anthony Rizzo. Maybe it's a difference of philosophy, but I'm in Theo's camp when he says that, a lot of times, it's better to lose 100 games instead of 88.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Sure there is, but it wouldn't have made a difference, besides costing us one of the best prospects in the game and not allowing us to acquire Anthony Rizzo. Maybe it's a difference of philosophy, but I'm in Theo's camp when he says that, a lot of times, it's better to lose 100 games instead of 88.

 

That's a pointless oversimplification that's only going to lead to me pointlessly oversimplifying in response.

[SouthSideRyan]

If you lose 100 games your major league team is [expletive] terrible and will not compete the year after you lose 100 games. if we lose 100 [expletive] games this season, I don't even know what to say

[jersey cubs fan]

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

 

People aren't overreacting like they will never get out of it, they are pissed because they never should have been this bad for this long. It is difficult to be this bad for this long. Every franchise may have bad 4-5 year stretches, but not necessarily this bad. But every one of those franchises deserved and got tons of [expletive] from people who bother to care how much they win for the fact that they lost this year.

 

The notion that people have no room to complain because some other random team had a tough stretch in the 70's, or that it's okay because they weren't even trying to win, or that one day they will actually be good again so it doesn't matter is just flat out absurd.

My point is that every franchise has a point in time where they have a severe shortage of talent and are unable do a quick-fix and turn it around in a year or two.

 

AND MY POINT IS THAT THIS DOES NOT MATTER AND IS AN INCREDIBLY STUPID "POINT" TO MAKE BECAUSE WHEN THOSE TEAMS WERE IN THAT SITUATION THEY WERE RIGHTFULLY CRITICIZED.

 

You aren't some hero because you tolerate this losing and understand how long of a struggle it is to rebuild a franchise. People like Arguello(sp?) are not more informed because they understand and tolerate this unnecessarily long process of extreme failure.

[davell]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

 

I think this idea is getting harder and harder to justify every passing year where we have to go through "But we lost 97 games last year, no point in adding anyone good" and another 300k fewer tickets are bought at Wrigley Field. Not to mention what it's going to do to TV ratings and the media deals.

Javy and Bryant are going to be counted on to bring in some fans during the second half of the year. Unfortunately, and this SUCKS, but it truly looks like the coming together of the baseball and business plans is meant for 2019 and not 2015.

 

Before going apeshit at that, the WGN renegotiation isn't going to add THAT much money for us. Hard to assume, but with youngsters making next to nothing, team starts to get better.....Attendance starts going up because of it, payroll incrementally moves up because of it. Starting to think we'll be carrying a very mid level payroll(but with cost controlled talent, not a big deal) until the FULL TV deal renegotiation. And unfortunately, it kind of makes sense from that perspective, as our youngsters should be producing in the 2017-2019 seasons. Helping with ratings and all the crap that strengthens those negotiations.

 

Again, don't kill the messenger, it just really seems to me this is where we're headed.

[Tyrant]

You aren't some hero because you tolerate this losing and understand how long of a struggle it is to rebuild a franchise. People like Arguello(sp?) are not more informed because they understand and tolerate this unnecessarily long process of extreme failure.

 

why is it unnecessary? how should they have made it better?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Javy and Bryant are going to be counted on to bring in some fans during the second half of the year.

 

I think that's more than a bit optimistic. 2015 is still very possible for either of them, especially Bryant.

 

And god help us if Baez pulls a Rizzo in his first exposure.

 

Unfortunately, and this SUCKS, but it truly looks like the coming together of the baseball and business plans is meant for 2019 and not 2015.

 

I don't think they meant for this to happen. They just haven't been very adept at executing their plans.

 

Before going [expletive] at that, the WGN renegotiation isn't going to add THAT much money for us. Hard to assume, but with youngsters making next to nothing, team starts to get better.....Attendance starts going up because of it, payroll incrementally moves up because of it. Starting to think we'll be carrying a very mid level payroll(but with cost controlled talent, not a big deal) until the FULL TV deal renegotiation. And unfortunately, it kind of makes sense from that perspective, as our youngsters should be producing in the 2017-2019 seasons. Helping with ratings and all the crap that strengthens those negotiations.

 

Again, don't kill the messenger, it just really seems to me this is where we're headed.

 

I don't disagree.

[KingCubsFan]

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

 

People aren't overreacting like they will never get out of it, they are pissed because they never should have been this bad for this long. It is difficult to be this bad for this long. Every franchise may have bad 4-5 year stretches, but not necessarily this bad. But every one of those franchises deserved and got tons of [expletive] from people who bother to care how much they win for the fact that they lost this year.

 

The notion that people have no room to complain because some other random team had a tough stretch in the 70's, or that it's okay because they weren't even trying to win, or that one day they will actually be good again so it doesn't matter is just flat out absurd.

My point is that every franchise has a point in time where they have a severe shortage of talent and are unable do a quick-fix and turn it around in a year or two.

 

AND MY POINT IS THAT THIS DOES NOT MATTER AND IS AN INCREDIBLY STUPID "POINT" TO MAKE BECAUSE WHEN THOSE TEAMS WERE IN THAT SITUATION THEY WERE RIGHTFULLY CRITICIZED.

 

You aren't some hero because you tolerate this losing and understand how long of a struggle it is to rebuild a franchise. People like Arguello(sp?) are not more informed because they understand and tolerate this unnecessarily long process of extreme failure.

You said this type of losing should never happen. History proves otherwise, no matter how much you stomp your feet.

[jersey cubs fan]

You said this type of losing should never happen. History proves otherwise, no matter how much you stomp your feet.

 

The fact that it has happened does not mean that it should happen, or that people should pretend to tolerate it in an effort to paint themselves as more informed fans that understand the process.

[Guest]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

 

I think this idea is getting harder and harder to justify every passing year where we have to go through "But we lost 97 games last year, no point in adding anyone good" and another 300k fewer tickets are bought at Wrigley Field. Not to mention what it's going to do to TV ratings and the media deals.

Javy and Bryant are going to be counted on to bring in some fans during the second half of the year. Unfortunately, and this SUCKS, but it truly looks like the coming together of the baseball and business plans is meant for 2019 and not 2015.

 

Before going [expletive] at that, the WGN renegotiation isn't going to add THAT much money for us. Hard to assume, but with youngsters making next to nothing, team starts to get better.....Attendance starts going up because of it, payroll incrementally moves up because of it. Starting to think we'll be carrying a very mid level payroll(but with cost controlled talent, not a big deal) until the FULL TV deal renegotiation. And unfortunately, it kind of makes sense from that perspective, as our youngsters should be producing in the 2017-2019 seasons. Helping with ratings and all the crap that strengthens those negotiations.

 

Again, don't kill the messenger, it just really seems to me this is where we're headed.

 

The renovations (assuming they're not just pushed back every [expletive] year) are going to be bringing in additional revenue far sooner than 2019.

 

 

(Kyle is going to respond that that is just going to be used to pay for the renovations)

[davell]

I think they've tried to put a "catch lightning in a bottle" team on the field both years honestly. The catch being you take the cheap"fill in the hole" types the FA class gives you. They said(and have succeeded) in placing the emphasis on the minors. They're not trading prospects to obtain borderline stopgap/solidish guys. They've filled it internally or on short term deals. In neither year, were we AS bad as our final record said. Once it's apparent that the ML team isn't going anywhere, I give Theo TONS of credit for selling off big time. Hell, for shutting Shark down. They do know how to tank, which is a great thing if it means instead of drafting 12th, we're drafting 4th because of trades dropping the record in August and September that much. Some will disagree, but we've basically taken a better path than Houston has, by being able to trade away guys while they've banked on the top pick instead, when we've only picked a bit behind them in the end.

 

They said "no short cuts" which tells me they're not trading prospects for talent unless its longterm. We obviously have no money from Ricketts. Whether we agree on whether this was the ONLY option or not, for what Ricketts has given them to work with, it is the BEST option.

 

What if we HAD put together a 75 win team in 2012? Attendance would have dropped some anyway. Which would have lowered payroll and the system would have not had Bryant or the IFA guys. We may have added an Upton. We wouldn't be happy with that. Kept Garza. And without the needed wins, we wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway. What's done is done. The odds of us making the playoffs in either 12 or 13 was extremely slim. Maybe you get lucky and somehow beat out the Reds or Pirates once in 14 or 15.

 

Maybe, at best. Your system wouldn't be anywhere near as stacked, you 'd have a slightly higher payroll because attendance wouldn't have dropped AS MUCH, but it'd still be maxed or close to it and we'd be selling off our youngsters to make another run at it.

 

With the Cards, Pirates, and Reds all as good as they are currently, there probably wasn't a better time than now to do a complete re-set.

 

I do think we're in better shape overall right now than if we had added a few better FA but had missed the playoffs and basically were up against Ricketts' penny pinching. It would have basically been the Trib again-post Soriano signing year.

 

I definitely misjudged the length, as I said earlier. Mainly because I figured we'd have had a bit more money to work with. Maybe I was unrealistic in thinking we'd have traded for a few guys closer to MLB ready. I thought we'd be adding the David Price and/or the Mike Stanton's of the world this offseason. If not for Castro, Shark, and Rizzo not progressing, maybe we would have, I don't know.

 

Maybe we'd have made the playoffs once between 2012-2016 by taking the other route? Maybe we sneak in during 15 or 16 this way? At this point, there's no use arguing anymore, this is the path. It's not like we're used to winning. If it does lead to a bunch of playoff berths in the late teens, we'll all say it was the right thing to have done in the end.

[davell]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

 

I think this idea is getting harder and harder to justify every passing year where we have to go through "But we lost 97 games last year, no point in adding anyone good" and another 300k fewer tickets are bought at Wrigley Field. Not to mention what it's going to do to TV ratings and the media deals.

Javy and Bryant are going to be counted on to bring in some fans during the second half of the year. Unfortunately, and this SUCKS, but it truly looks like the coming together of the baseball and business plans is meant for 2019 and not 2015.

 

Before going [expletive] at that, the WGN renegotiation isn't going to add THAT much money for us. Hard to assume, but with youngsters making next to nothing, team starts to get better.....Attendance starts going up because of it, payroll incrementally moves up because of it. Starting to think we'll be carrying a very mid level payroll(but with cost controlled talent, not a big deal) until the FULL TV deal renegotiation. And unfortunately, it kind of makes sense from that perspective, as our youngsters should be producing in the 2017-2019 seasons. Helping with ratings and all the crap that strengthens those negotiations.

 

Again, don't kill the messenger, it just really seems to me this is where we're headed.

 

The renovations (assuming they're not just pushed back every [expletive] year) are going to be bringing in additional revenue far sooner than 2019.

 

 

(Kyle is going to respond that that is just going to be used to pay for the renovations)

You don't agree? I think "losing " the 200 mill from the city hurt much, much worse than what anyone's been willing to admit. I DO think they expected to get it.

[mul21]

You aren't some hero because you tolerate this losing and understand how long of a struggle it is to rebuild a franchise. People like Arguello(sp?) are not more informed because they understand and tolerate this unnecessarily long process of extreme failure.

 

why is it unnecessary? how should they have made it better?

 

By not agreeing to a completely horse [expletive] financing deal to help line Zell's pockets to guarantee they'd get the team.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Would the system be that much worse?

 

OK, we win 75 games in 2012 and don't make the trades.

 

We still have 6 of our current top 10, plus the 2013 No. 12 pick or whatever.

[Backtobanks]

 

Maybe we'd have made the playoffs once between 2012-2016 by taking the other route? Maybe we sneak in during 15 or 16 this way? At this point, there's no use arguing anymore, this is the path. It's not like we're used to winning. If it does lead to a bunch of playoff berths in the late teens, we'll all say it was the right thing to have done in the end.

 

That's a big "if" after being terrible 8-9 years in a row.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Even if we put aside whether the path they've taken is the right one, they haven't exactly been flawless in executing it.

 

We are like one Arodys Vizcaino setback from maybe ending up with nothing to show for the 2012 trade deadline.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, the best case scenario shouldn't be hopefully making the playoffs a few times after 5 years of suck. Tom Ricketts is a miserable failure

[davell]

Even if we put aside whether the path they've taken is the right one, they haven't exactly been flawless in executing it.

 

We are like one Arodys Vizcaino setback from maybe ending up with nothing to show for the 2012 trade deadline.

Eh, Villanueva or Hendricks could be useful, but I understand the point. That said, expecting perfection isn't truly fair either, even with what any logical person on this site knows, is a damn good FO.

[davell]

Yeah, the best case scenario shouldn't be hopefully making the playoffs a few times after 5 years of suck. Tom Ricketts is a miserable failure

 

Ricketts has yet to to do ANYTHING of note, outside of hiring a very capable FO, that MAY eventually be able to operate a winning team with extremely little help from him. For that, he was smart. Outside of that, he's been ridiculously awful.....

[CubsWin]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

 

I think this idea is getting harder and harder to justify every passing year where we have to go through "But we lost 97 games last year, no point in adding anyone good" and another 300k fewer tickets are bought at Wrigley Field. Not to mention what it's going to do to TV ratings and the media deals.

Um, they are adding good players...

[CubsWin]

Yeah, the best case scenario shouldn't be hopefully making the playoffs a few times after 5 years of suck. Tom Ricketts is a miserable failure

 

Ricketts has yet to to do ANYTHING of note, outside of hiring a very capable FO, that MAY eventually be able to operate a winning team with extremely little help from him. For that, he was smart. Outside of that, he's been ridiculously awful.....

I count the spending on amateur talent and the spending on infrastructure (past and planned) to be things of note.

[davell]

Yeah, the best case scenario shouldn't be hopefully making the playoffs a few times after 5 years of suck. Tom Ricketts is a miserable failure

 

Ricketts has yet to to do ANYTHING of note, outside of hiring a very capable FO, that MAY eventually be able to operate a winning team with extremely little help from him. For that, he was smart. Outside of that, he's been ridiculously awful.....

I count the spending on amateur talent and the spending on infrastructure (past and planned) to be things of note.

The spending on amateur talent is DEFINITELY Theo, not Ricketts. If anything, I BLAME Ricketts for not opening it up for an epic IFA binge this year, when we went over spending by a couple mill. If we truly had any money left over, it would have been used there. It was basically the point where any doubt I had about Theo maybe not wanting to spend turned to Theo definitely can't spend.

[ScrubMD]

Can we have an offseason thread where Kyle isn't allowed? It'd be nice to stop by for updates without having to weed through page after page of his tedious whining.

 

EDIT: I should mention that a mere blocking would not do the trick, as he manages to pull everyone else into his tediousness.

[HoopsCubs]

Ricky Nolasco's agent is telling reporters that they have several 3-year and two 4-year deals in hand. I am trying to connect the dots and see if the Cubs are one of those teams that have made an offer.

 

Any news or grumblings from others to suggest one way or another?