Trading Darwin Barney

[Tracer Bullet]

They're not going to move him unless it's a good deal. There's no reason to dump him for nothing. And Theo appreciates the value of defense and cost controlled years too much to undervalue Barney in a stupid trade. I'd be surprised if he's dealt.

[BeerHere]

They're not going to move him unless it's a good deal. There's no reason to dump him for nothing. And Theo appreciates the value of defense and cost controlled years too much to undervalue Barney in a stupid trade. I'd be surprised if he's dealt.

I feel the same. He's nothing special but he's cheap and under team control for a while.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

[rawaction]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

 

I was thinking more like a contending team that's getting nothing at 2B, but may have a young OF that's fighting for ABs or a starting pitcher that's stuck in long relief due to rotation depth.

[KingCubsFan]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

Do the Phillies have anything worthwhile? Not sure how I feel about Domonic Brown at this point.

[davell]

The Phils are looking at him as Victorino's replacement next year. He's got some sort of knee problem though, so playing CF may be asking too much of him. Personally, I think he needs a change of scenery, but I doubt they're willing to sell low yet.

[toonsterwu]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

Do the Phillies have anything worthwhile? Not sure how I feel about Domonic Brown at this point.

 

I'd probably roll the dice on Brown if they offered it (I'm guessing I might be in the minority on this), but I doubt the Phillies would come calling on Barney. They like Galvis enough, Frandsen and Andres Blanco can be decent stopgaps, Utley is signed down through 2013, and Rollins through 2014 with an option that can trigger for 2015. I have my doubts that they will move Utley. I guess, if they moved Utley, maybe. The Phillies system is fairly weak, particularly in the upper levels, but even their lower levels don't really intrigue all that much. Still like Trevor May a fair amount, though that is not happening in a Barney deal.

 

I'm still of the opinion that Barney is a poor match for the club relative to what we hope will happen, as his position is one of the few spots where we could realistically find another top of the order bat (I mean, I've always said that I don't think Brett Jackson should be a top of the order bat. Szczur is one possibility, but there's still a need for another, and Szczur's a year to two away if all goes well), but I am also of the same opinion as others have noted here - his value to us is higher than what we could probably net in a trade, and considering we are in a rebuilding mode, throwing him out there is valuable, particularly since his good defensive abilities would likely help what should be a changing, and probably young, pitching staff in the next year or two.

 

Only way I think we could get justifiable value for Barney is if a team had a need at short and thought, like Theo did in 04, that upgrading team defense would significantly impact their chances. That said, it's hard to see what team would take that gamble and also offer enough. Dee Gordon is the future, and likely will get every chance in LA. Other than that, I couldn't think of any other team that had this scenario, barring injury.

[Backtobanks]

If we're trading Barney to a team that plans on using him as a utility infielder then we're not going to get a fair return for him.

 

Probably. But between Simmons still being unproven, Chipper being very injury prone, and them possibly someone to pair with Uggla at second/third when Chipper retires, he could have decent value to them.

 

To echo what everyone else (and you, basically) are saying, he's more valued by us than he is to the rest of the league, and I'm only really in favor of trading him with others to sweeten a possible return. Pairing him with a pitcher to the Braves and all those young arms could be the way to do it (obviously, given the right return.)

 

It had better really sweeten the return or else you just created another hole to fill on a team that has a ton of holes to fill now.

 

If it gets us a pitcher that has a reasonable chance of slotting into the rotation over the next 3-5 years, I'm more than ok with putting some combination of Stewart/Vitters/Valbuena/Lake at third and second through next year to get a look at them (and by then we'll know plenty more about the future of guys like Baez, Marco Hernandez, and DeVoss).

 

Yeah, as long as you're satisfied with 5 more years of plugging players in to assess where we are at point. Trading Dempster, Garza, and Soriano need to get us at least some players that will be at the ML level next year. All of this talk about 4-5 years from now doesn't account for the fact that young players might need a year or two at the ML level to become impact players.

[Careless]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

Do the Phillies have anything worthwhile? Not sure how I feel about Domonic Brown at this point.

Aren't they more likely to be sellers than buyers this season?

[Little Slide Rooter]

It's just hard to imagine a team that needs a cost-controlled starting-quality 2b more than we do, while at the same time having something spare that we need. There's not really any good fit for trades.

 

He's not good enough to warrant a top prospect, and he's too good to send off for B-grade ones.

Do the Phillies have anything worthwhile? Not sure how I feel about Domonic Brown at this point.

Aren't they more likely to be sellers than buyers this season?

 

They might trade Hamels if they decide they can't sign him, but even if they're 15 games out in late July, I can't imagine them as full on sellers since they have too much invested in the team to flat out rebuild. They'd be more likely to stand pat. Personally, I'd trade Barney for Brown in a minute, because like I said, I'd trade the promise of stability for the off chance of greatness.

[toonsterwu]

I tend to think that if they move Hamels, that would constitute "full on sellers", because, well, you don't trade arms in their prime like that if you think you've got a shot. I could actually see them try to move Pence, maybe Lee, and honestly, if Utley hits, maybe even Utley, along with some spare pieces ... if they fall far enough out of the race (say, Blanton, Polanco). Victorino would be another possibility. Some pieces (Rollins/Howard come to mind) fall into the Alfonso Soriano realm of trade possibilities - chances are slim.

 

The thing is ... it's hard to imagine them falling too far away from the 2nd wildcard spot to go to full sell mode. They'd be wise to consider it, even if they are still barely hanging around, as some of their pieces would bring back solid returns, and well, the system is fairly weak right now.

[TruffleShuffle]

The thing is ... it's hard to imagine them falling too far away from the 2nd wildcard spot to go to full sell mode. They'd be wise to consider it, even if they are still barely hanging around, as some of their pieces would bring back solid returns, and well, the system is fairly weak right now.

 

they'd be wise to consider it, but they have utley and howard on their way back and, if they can add halladay in the next month, it's not too hard to envision them posting a really good second half record.

 

they definitely have some valuable pieces, but they've got a team that could also go on a big run. almost certain that they hold off until the trade deadline to decide which way to go.

[SouthSideRyan]

At the risk of having this post search functioned in October, aren't Utley and Howard worthless at this point?

[Little Slide Rooter]

At the risk of having this post search functioned in October, aren't Utley and Howard worthless at this point?

 

They've both been out all season, which a big reason why they've been so awful. They're both in their early-mid 30's, so if they return to form next season, the Phillies could be right back in the division. Howard should be back to full strength by then, but it's tough to say with Utley. He's been banged up pretty often the past few years.

 

It's really similar to the situation that the Cubs were in a few years ago, when it was cleaer that we had a roster full of expensive and aging players, but their were far too many of them and far too high of a pay roll to blow it up all together, and the farm system was lacking so all we could really do was sell them off as their contracts were set to expire and take what we could get.

[jersey cubs fan]

At the risk of having this post search functioned in October, aren't Utley and Howard worthless at this point?

 

Ryan Howard could very well be worthless. His last two healthy seasons were nothing special and he's probably only going to keep getting worse. Utley could still have a little left in the tank. But at his age you can't expect much more for a middle infielder.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Utley is well on the wrong side of 30 with chronic knee issues and a surgically repaired hip. I doubt there's much in that tank.

[toonsterwu]

The only reason I threw Utley in there is because his contract expires after 2013, so there isn't that long of a commitment.

 

That said, as I noted, and as Truffle expanded upon, the chances of them falling too far from the 2nd wildcard spot seems ... unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. I think they should consider selling unless they are directly in the thick of things (and not just barely hanging on), as I think this team can only go downhill (age, high chance Hamels is gone, some other parts likely to move on), but I also understand that they probably won't unless they are simply out of it, as truffle noted, because there's always reason to hope when you have that type of pitching.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Yea. I'd be shocked if the Phillies were sellers in 2012. They're only 5 games behind the two current WC holders, Halladay is due back soon, it's Ruben Amaro, and even if Howard and Utley are no longer "Howard and Utley," think about who'll they be replacing: Ty Wigginton (.707 OPS, 91 OPS+) and Mike Fontenot (now that Freddy Galvis and his sterling .617 OPS will not be available for the next 50 games). I'm not saying I would push full-steam ahead with this geriatric crew, but I have a hard time seeing Amaro blowing it up at this point.

[Guest]

At the risk of having this post search functioned in October, aren't Utley and Howard worthless at this point?

 

Ryan Howard could very well be worthless. His last two healthy seasons were nothing special and he's probably only going to keep getting worse. Utley could still have a little left in the tank. But at his age you can't expect much more for a middle infielder.

 

And the Phillies still have to pay Howard 105M over the next five years (I'm assuming they won't be picking up his 23M option for 2017).

[SouthSideRyan]

But somebody told me it wasn't a bad deal because it hadn't hurt the Phillies yet.

[champaignchris]

And the Phillies still have to pay Howard 105M over the next five years (I'm assuming they won't be picking up his 23M option for 2017).

 

Woof! He's 32, hasn't played yet this year because he's coming off major - what was it? Achilles tendon? - surgery, and his rate stats have declined fairly steadily since their 2006/2007 peak. There's a strong possibility that contract is going to make Soriano's contract look reasonable in comparison.

[TruffleShuffle]

At the risk of having this post search functioned in October, aren't Utley and Howard worthless at this point?

 

utley still went for .259/.344/.425/.769, which is well above average for a 2b, and he had a low BABIP. if he gets somewhat healthy - and he's been playing minor league games lately - he's definitely a big upgrade over the garbage they've been rolling out at 2b this year (combined .253/.280/.398/.679). howard isn't great, but again - his .253/.346/.488/.834 line last year is a good bit better than the .260/.322/.419/.741 line they've gotten from 1b this year. especially if they can start platooning howard under the guise of keeping him healthy (.266/.370/.550/.920 last year against RHP).

[Guest]

The Tigers asked the Cubs about second baseman Darwin Barney a couple of weeks ago, Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports reports (on Twitter). However, talks didn't progress.

 

Tigers second basemen have combined for a .198/.272/.266 batting line, so it's no surprise that Dave Dombrowski's front office is looking into potentially available second basemen. No team in baseball has a worse OPS from the second base position in 2012.

 

Rival teams have asked about Barney, who has a .262/.307/.369 batting line in 302 plate appearances for the Cubs. The 26-year-old won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season. The Tigers are also interested in Cubs right-hander Matt Garza, Morosi reported today.

[davell]

I'd ask for Crosby and Garcia for Barney, but I'd settle for Crosby.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Package Barney and Garza. Judging by Detroits needs, we could walk away with 3 of their top 10.