2011-2012 NBA Season

[SouthSideRyan]

And he dances.

[Banedon]

Passing to Steve Kerr, 45% 3 point shooter: No brainer, he's a great shooter

 

Passing to Boobie Gibson, 42% 3 point shooter: What are you doing? He's just a guy.

 

In all seriousness, it's also who was doing the passing. Jordan had 4 rings before he passed to Kerr for the game winner. He'd built up just a bit of fan trust/goodwill by then.

 

There's a belief out there that Lebron can't deliver at the end of games. There was never that belief with MJ.

 

Lebron was 20 and had carried a collection of mediocre role players to the finals. This is basketball, plays are set up to have other options and it was nice that Jordan had the luxury of having his 7th/8th man be one of the best shooters ever whereas Lebron had Boobie wide open on the baseline. Remember when MJ dropped 55 at the garden, he passed the game winner to Bill Wennington, definately just a guy. I understand most people arent smart enough for perspective, and most others are usually too emotional with respect to lebron for some reason to even try.

 

The knocks against him are he passed (at 20) to boobie gibson in a finals they were never gonna win, he gave up on the Cavs in that boston game (where he had a triple double with 30 points and 20 boards), and he passed at the end of an all star game.

 

Again, Jordan had 3 titles by the time he made the pass to Wennington. Jordan had a rep of being this uber-competitor, wanting to win at everything he ever did.

 

Lebron has plenty of time to erase these criticisms. But if somebody wants to look at Lebron and find something to criticize about his game (which plenty of people are wont to do), the one viable criticism they can make is his ability to deliver a dagger in the final seconds of the most important games (all star game aside, cuz well...who gives a [expletive]).

[Ryne Ween]

I agree, his resume has everything but a ring, and a last second shot that won that ring.

 

Out of curiousity, if anybody is of the opinion Lebron isnt great with the game on the line, who is? What is playoff game winner resume?

[UMFan83]

I agree, his resume has everything but a ring, and a last second shot that won that ring.

 

Out of curiousity, if anybody is of the opinion Lebron isnt great with the game on the line, who is? What is playoff game winner resume?

 

It's not greatness that is in debate, its GOAT territory, or at least top 10 player ever territory. Here are top 10ers that almost no one debates:

 

Jordan

Bird

Magic

Abdul Jabbar

Chamberlain

Russell

Robertson

Kobe

 

Most people have the perception (and remember, perception is what we are talking about here) that these people all came up big in the clutch. And for the most part, that's true. LBJ needs fans to have that same view of him and it wont happen until he wins a title. Jordan was getting dogged with the same criticisms as he went titleless the first 6 years of his career. His teams kept coming up short in the playoffs, with the the later teams having higher expectations. It wasn't until Jordan won a title or two that people started piecing together his profile of clutch moments (like "The Shot" a couple of years prior.)

 

It's not like LeBron doesn't have clutch moments in his resume. That ECFs game against the Pistons was an all time great performance. The game winning 3 against the Magic in the ECF a couple of years ago was all but erased in people's minds because the heavily favored Cavs lost the series but that was still a signature clutch moment. If/When LeBron wins a title, these moments will start to come together as part of LeBron's legend that will only grow as his career continues and especially when it ends.

And that's the thing, most of us never saw Russell or Chamberlain or Robertson in the moment and yet almost everyone agrees that they came through in the clutch becuase of the legend they've created over the years.

 

So to sum up reasons why LeBron is not considered clutch enough:

1. No titles

2. Extremely high standards

3. 24/7 Now that analyzes everything LeBron does instantly.

4. Not enough time to build a legend.

[apete6]

LeBron didn't pass to Deron Williams, that was someone else as LeBron had inbounded the ball. If he was the one to pass to Deron, that's a great play as Williams was wide open and had been playing well. After that, LeBron got the rebound with like 4 seconds left and chose to try to pass it again and ended up throwing it away rather than attempt the shot. At the end of the day, it doesn't mean a whole lot, but I doubt Kobe or MJ try to force a pass rather than just take a shot.

[Ryne Ween]

Lebron made the pass the Deron.

[illiniguy]

Lebron made the pass the Deron.

As he should, Derons better.......or it was an all star game and no one is a bad option. LeBrons still the best player in the world and probably about to win his first title this year.

[17 Seconds]

derrick williams is destroying the clippers

[UMFan83]

Good article/oral history on Grantland today recapping the "Malice at the Palace". Lots of interviews and quotes from those involved, with interesting tidbits and a look behind the scenes.

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/an-oral-history-malice-palace

[CubColtPacer]

Good article/oral history on Grantland today recapping the "Malice at the Palace". Lots of interviews and quotes from those involved, with interesting tidbits and a look behind the scenes.

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/an-oral-history-malice-palace

 

Great article. What a horrible weekend for Pacers fans. They were one of the favorites to win the title to give Reggie his first ring. Then the brawl happens and after the game all the news coverage focused on how badly it was handled by Detroit. By morning, it was all on Artest but people still thought the suspension would be between 10-30 games (there was precedent for NBA players going into the stands in Vernon Maxwell). When the suspensions came out everyone was stunned, even the analysts who thought that the Pacers should be severely punished.

 

The thing that annoys Pacers fans to this day is that everybody failed that night. Detroit security was terrible. The referees didn't do their job. The fans were awful. If any of those do their job, this either doesn't happen or at least doesn't become nearly as bad. But when the penalties came down, Detroit got off basically scot free while the Pacers were destroyed. I mean, O'Neal got 25 games initially for fighting a fan who chose to come on the court for the purpose of trying to fight the Pacers! The Pacers actions were deplorable that night, but the penalties became a complete PR decision by the league to try to preserve their image as best they could instead of having anything to do with fairness.

 

With all that said though, I'm glad that Pacers team is gone. The players on that team with the actions of the brawl and the years after might have permanently damaged NBA basketball in Indiana. And for those who were here and experienced how Pacers crazy this town used to be, that's a shame.

[17 Seconds]

the pistons got off easy and the pacers got destroyed because the pacers are the ones that went into the stands and started brawling with fans.

 

and jermaine o'neal could have protected artest without throwing a monster punch yhat probably would have knocked that guys head off if he didn't slip.

 

the punishments were fair.

[CubColtPacer]

the pistons got off easy and the pacers got destroyed because the pacers are the ones that went into the stands and started brawling with fans.

 

and jermaine o'neal could have protected artest without throwing a monster punch yhat probably would have knocked that guys head off if he didn't slip.

 

the punishments were fair.

 

Look at the two situations:

 

Maxwell goes into the stands to go after a heckler (who as far as I know, wasn't in trouble with the arena) and punches him. The NBA suspends him 10 games.

 

The Pistons let a guy in who they know is trouble. They talk to him at halftime but let him stay. He throws a beer on Artest who charges into the stands. Jackson follows him and throws a punch. O'Neal stays on the court and throws a punch at a fan who comes on to the court. The NBA suspends Artest for the whole season, Jackson for 30, O'Neal for 25.

 

What was so much worse about what the Pacers did that justified the much longer suspensions? The brawl got so much worse because it was allowed to keep going on. Fans were allowed on the court, a fan ripped a chair out and threw it at the players, the players and coaches had trouble getting through the tunnel. If Artest and Jackson go into the stands and its broken up by security, they get 10-20 game suspensions and nobody remembers the brawl today.

[17 Seconds]

What was so much worse about what the Pacers did that justified the much longer suspensions?

 

the fact that they were the ones that inititated the brawl with the fans? you can blame whoever you want for what led up to it, but the bottom line is that artest was the one who went into the stands and started it

If Artest and Jackson go into the stands and its broken up by security, they get 10-20 game suspensions and nobody remembers the brawl today.

 

and if artest and jackson don't go into the stands to begin with, it never happens at all.

 

the pacers had some scumbags on their team that lost it and went berserk. thats the pacers fault.

[CubColtPacer]

What was so much worse about what the Pacers did that justified the much longer suspensions?

 

the fact that they were the ones that inititated the brawl with the fans? you can blame whoever you want for what led up to it, but the bottom line is that artest was the one who went into the stands and started it

If Artest and Jackson go into the stands and its broken up by security, they get 10-20 game suspensions and nobody remembers the brawl today.

 

and if artest and jackson don't go into the stands to begin with, it never happens at all.

 

the pacers had some scumbags on their team that lost it and went berserk. thats the pacers fault.

 

I agree with both of those points, and Artest and Jackson should have both had lengthy suspensions for that. But they weren't the only ones at fault, nor did they do anything that hadn't been done before. But it was treated that way.

[Exile on Waveland]

Passing to Steve Kerr, 45% 3 point shooter: No brainer, he's a great shooter

 

Passing to Boobie Gibson, 42% 3 point shooter: What are you doing? He's just a guy.

 

Those two players are not equivalent as shooters, let's be real. As a Bull, Kerr shot .419, .524 (!), .515 (!), .464, and .438 percent from 3-point range (on at least 124 attempts each season). Gibson has shot .419, .440, .382, .477, .403, and .404 percent so far in his career. Also, your rounding makes both look better -- Kerr is a career .454 3-point shooter (despite two sub-.400 years at the end of his career when he was 36 and 37 years old) and Gibson is at .417. Further, Kerr was at/near his 3-point peak when Jordan passed to him; Gibson was (what?) in his second year.

 

Not that I really care that James passed, basketball is a team sport.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Exile on Waveland

[Exile on Waveland]

What was so much worse about what the Pacers did that justified the much longer suspensions?

 

the fact that they were the ones that inititated the brawl with the fans? you can blame whoever you want for what led up to it, but the bottom line is that artest was the one who went into the stands and started it

If Artest and Jackson go into the stands and its broken up by security, they get 10-20 game suspensions and nobody remembers the brawl today.

 

and if artest and jackson don't go into the stands to begin with, it never happens at all.

 

the pacers had some scumbags on their team that lost it and went berserk. thats the pacers fault.

 

I agree with both of those points, and Artest and Jackson should have both had lengthy suspensions for that. But they weren't the only ones at fault, nor did they do anything that hadn't been done before. But it was treated that way.

 

I have/had no problem with the Pacers suspensions; their actions were indefensible. And, at least for Artest and Jackson (if not O'Neal), their personalities/character indicated that such an incident was not necessarily a one-time deal. It was Maxwell's suspension that should be viewed as an anamoly and too light; not vice versa. If you enter the stands and fight fans, the punishment should be severe.

 

However, what was not fair, is how light the Pistons were treated. Not necessarily the players, but the franchise. They should have been forced to play some games without fans a la soccer matches, or something. The reason security exists is to prevent idiots like Artest and Jackson from going into the stands and idiots like Turtle-as-Piston-fan coming onto the court. They completely failed and that failure led to one of the darkest moments in NBA history.

[CubColtPacer]

What was so much worse about what the Pacers did that justified the much longer suspensions?

 

the fact that they were the ones that inititated the brawl with the fans? you can blame whoever you want for what led up to it, but the bottom line is that artest was the one who went into the stands and started it

If Artest and Jackson go into the stands and its broken up by security, they get 10-20 game suspensions and nobody remembers the brawl today.

 

and if artest and jackson don't go into the stands to begin with, it never happens at all.

 

the pacers had some scumbags on their team that lost it and went berserk. thats the pacers fault.

 

I agree with both of those points, and Artest and Jackson should have both had lengthy suspensions for that. But they weren't the only ones at fault, nor did they do anything that hadn't been done before. But it was treated that way.

 

I have/had no problem with the Pacers suspensions; their actions were indefensible. And, at least for Artest and Jackson (if not O'Neal), their personalities/character indicated that such an incident was not necessarily a one-time deal. It was Maxwell's suspension that should be viewed as an anamoly and too light; not vice versa. If you enter the stands and fight fans, the punishment should be severe.

 

However, what was not fair, is how light the Pistons were treated. Not necessarily the players, but the franchise. They should have been forced to play some games without fans a la soccer matches, or something. The reason security exists is to prevent idiots like Artest and Jackson from going into the stands and idiots like Turtle-as-Piston-fan coming onto the court. They completely failed and that failure led to one of the darkest moments in NBA history.

 

Yeah, now that I think about it more, that's what gets to the heart of it for me. I am perfectly fine with severe suspensions for fighting fans especially in the stands. That's close to the worst thing you can do in the sports world. I think O'Neal's suspension was a little heavy because the fan came onto the players' turf in an already crazy situation. Other than that, whatever message the NBA wants to send about going into the stands is fine with me. Just be consistent about it.

 

But the fact that the Pistons got off so lightly comparatively makes no sense. They have a responsibility to protect the fans and the visiting team, and they spectacularly failed. The brawl couldn't have happened at many arenas because most teams are more responsible than that.

[illiniguy]

They failed because you had a team full of nut cases. Stern handled it the right way.

[Exile on Waveland]

They failed because you had a team full of nut cases. Stern handled it the right way.

 

If a zoo has a visiting tiger exhibit and the tigers break out and eat visitors, the tigers have to be put down (or at least removed). But the culpability doesn't end there. The people responsible for securing the tigers also have to answer for their negligence. (If you don't like the animals example, make it a prison break that leads to rape and murder -- the rapists and murderers are the main culprits, but the wardens and officials that allowed the escape to occur must also answer.)

 

The Pacers' nut cases were the main culprits. But the reason stadiums and professional teams have security is to prevent these situations (or at least prevent the full-scale snow-balling escalation that occured). The Pistons failed here. They're culpable for that failure.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm not sure there's an analogy that's going to sound good here.

[illiniguy]

He's right. The Pistons should have petitioned the league to have the Pacers removed because they were gathering up too many psychopaths. Really what more could the Pistons have done? Told their security to be mindful of the fact that Artest and Jackson would be too afraid of Ben Wallace to get mad at him so instead they might attack fans instead?

[Exile on Waveland]

You honestly believe that couldn't have been handled better? Seriously? If so, there's really no point in debating this further.

[illiniguy]

You honestly believe that couldn't have been handled better? Seriously? If so, there's really no point in debating this further.

I'm not sure how? What would you have done differently?

[CubColtPacer]

You honestly believe that couldn't have been handled better? Seriously? If so, there's really no point in debating this further.

I'm not sure how? What would you have done differently?

 

The Pistons could have removed the fan that threw the beer before this happened. They knew he was likely to start trouble.

 

They could have had security nearby the area. This wasn't a quick happening thing. Artest was on the scoring table for 90 seconds or so, and the beer that hit him wasn't the first one that was thrown. And Ben Wallace's brother was working his way towards Artest and was looking for a fight himself, so even if Artest hadn't jumped into the stands something might have happened anyway.

 

If security had gotten between Artest and the fan immediately, it would have been over. Artest didn't go in swinging. He was trying to find the fan who threw the beer. And Jackson was trying to fight with Artest to keep the fans from killing him so he would have stopped as soon as Artest was safe.

 

No fans should have been able to get on the floor. Fans did, and yet there was nobody making any effort to stop them.

 

Security should have been up in the stands by the fans in the tunnel to try to slow down the amount of chairs and bottles and other things that were thrown at the players and coaches trying to leave the floor.

 

This was a rivalry game that had clearly turned heated. The crowd had already gotten ugly before this point, but there was nobody there to deter them. The whole point of arena security is to keep the crowd from ever turning into a mob mentality. And the Detroit crowd was in a mob mentality by the end of that night. Could security have stopped Artest/Jackson from going in the stands? No. But they could have minimized the damage from it. Instead, the crowd was just let to run rampant. Nothing over the PA, no security/police officers, nothing.

 

BTW, the next time the Pacers were in Detroit, the game was delayed for 90 minutes or so because there were reports that somebody placed a bomb in the Pacers locker room. Thankfully by then Detroit had learned their lesson and security was much tighter than it had been the night of the brawl.

[illiniguy]

You honestly believe that couldn't have been handled better? Seriously? If so, there's really no point in debating this further.

I'm not sure how? What would you have done differently?

 

The Pistons could have removed the fan that threw the beer before this happened. They knew he was likely to start trouble.

 

They could have had security nearby the area. This wasn't a quick happening thing. Artest was on the scoring table for 90 seconds or so, and the beer that hit him wasn't the first one that was thrown. And Ben Wallace's brother was working his way towards Artest and was looking for a fight himself, so even if Artest hadn't jumped into the stands something might have happened anyway.

 

If security had gotten between Artest and the fan immediately, it would have been over. Artest didn't go in swinging. He was trying to find the fan who threw the beer. And Jackson was trying to fight with Artest to keep the fans from killing him so he would have stopped as soon as Artest was safe.

 

No fans should have been able to get on the floor. Fans did, and yet there was nobody making any effort to stop them.

 

Security should have been up in the stands by the fans in the tunnel to try to slow down the amount of chairs and bottles and other things that were thrown at the players and coaches trying to leave the floor.

 

This was a rivalry game that had clearly turned heated. The crowd had already gotten ugly before this point, but there was nobody there to deter them. The whole point of arena security is to keep the crowd from ever turning into a mob mentality. And the Detroit crowd was in a mob mentality by the end of that night. Could security have stopped Artest/Jackson from going in the stands? No. But they could have minimized the damage from it. Instead, the crowd was just let to run rampant. Nothing over the PA, no security/police officers, nothing.

 

BTW, the next time the Pacers were in Detroit, the game was delayed for 90 minutes or so because there were reports that somebody placed a bomb in the Pacers locker room. Thankfully by then Detroit had learned their lesson and security was much tighter than it had been the night of the brawl.

The fan that trhew the beer wasn't the one that was attacked. It was some other guy a few seats behind the guilty party.

 

Fans got to the court because the security was busy trying to get two idiots out of the stands.

 

There are tons of rivalry games where this type of thing could happen, but doesn't. It doesn't because most teams only have one insane person on a roster. The Pacers tempted fate by collecting a group of them.