2011-2012 NBA Season

[Exile on Waveland]

A decent comparison would be the Chad Kreuter incident at Wrigley. I could not find a video of it, but my memory is that security responded rather promptly. Multiple fans were escorted out. The game was only delayed ten minutes. The Pacer-Piston melee lasted quite a long time and the game was called without finishing it. The melee deteriorated into what was basically mass hysteria. The entire purpose of security is to prevent that.

 

(CCP responded before I did, so I'll incorporate his post, in case you think I was ducking the question.)

[UMFan83]

Passing to Steve Kerr, 45% 3 point shooter: No brainer, he's a great shooter

 

Passing to Boobie Gibson, 42% 3 point shooter: What are you doing? He's just a guy.

 

Those two players are not equivalent as shooters, let's be real. As a Bull, Kerr shot .491, .524 (!), .515 (!), .464, and .438 percent from 3-point range (on at least 124 attempts each season).

 

I love Steve Kerr but I have to point out 2 things:

 

1) That first year as a Bull he shot .419, not .491

2) the 2nd-4th years as a Bull (.524, .515, .464) the 3 point line was moved in, and multiple players shot over 50% from 3. His career percentage during those 3 years was exactly .500%. Outside of those 3 years, his career percentage was .424

[Exile on Waveland]

The Pacers tempted fate by collecting a group of them.

 

That's undeniably true. The incident doesn't occur if the Pacers didn't have insane players on their team. The Pacers deserved their punishment (honestly, I always thought Jackson should have been suspended for the year, too, but I have a very low opinion of him in general.) But the escalation should never occur -- security exists to prevent that. Similarly, law enforcement exists to prevent crimes; and, if the first crime can't be prevented, catch the criminal before the second crime can be committed.

[CubColtPacer]

You honestly believe that couldn't have been handled better? Seriously? If so, there's really no point in debating this further.

I'm not sure how? What would you have done differently?

 

The Pistons could have removed the fan that threw the beer before this happened. They knew he was likely to start trouble.

 

They could have had security nearby the area. This wasn't a quick happening thing. Artest was on the scoring table for 90 seconds or so, and the beer that hit him wasn't the first one that was thrown. And Ben Wallace's brother was working his way towards Artest and was looking for a fight himself, so even if Artest hadn't jumped into the stands something might have happened anyway.

 

If security had gotten between Artest and the fan immediately, it would have been over. Artest didn't go in swinging. He was trying to find the fan who threw the beer. And Jackson was trying to fight with Artest to keep the fans from killing him so he would have stopped as soon as Artest was safe.

 

No fans should have been able to get on the floor. Fans did, and yet there was nobody making any effort to stop them.

 

Security should have been up in the stands by the fans in the tunnel to try to slow down the amount of chairs and bottles and other things that were thrown at the players and coaches trying to leave the floor.

 

This was a rivalry game that had clearly turned heated. The crowd had already gotten ugly before this point, but there was nobody there to deter them. The whole point of arena security is to keep the crowd from ever turning into a mob mentality. And the Detroit crowd was in a mob mentality by the end of that night. Could security have stopped Artest/Jackson from going in the stands? No. But they could have minimized the damage from it. Instead, the crowd was just let to run rampant. Nothing over the PA, no security/police officers, nothing.

 

BTW, the next time the Pacers were in Detroit, the game was delayed for 90 minutes or so because there were reports that somebody placed a bomb in the Pacers locker room. Thankfully by then Detroit had learned their lesson and security was much tighter than it had been the night of the brawl.

The fan that trhew the beer wasn't the one that was attacked. It was some other guy a few seats behind the guilty party.

 

Fans got to the court because the security was busy trying to get two idiots out of the stands.

 

There are tons of rivalry games where this type of thing could happen, but doesn't. It doesn't because most teams only have one insane person on a roster. The Pacers tempted fate by collecting a group of them.

 

Yes, but if security had removed that fan, he never throws that beer. If this was his first offense it's unavoidable, but it wasn't. And yup, Artest went and pushed down the wrong person and asked him if he was the guilty one before letting go when he was attacked from behind.

 

There was no security around. And fans were spilling onto the court after Artest/Jackson got out of the stands (which was relatively quickly). There were three police officers in the entire arena that night. There should have been 10x as many security people in the building that night (I see dozens at a normal NBA game). So instead all they had were old ushers who were trying to step in and help, and obviously they weren't going to be able to do anything.

 

Yes the Pacers tempted fate, which is why they deserved the long suspensions. But Detroit tempted fate as well by not having any procedures in place. They let the crowd get way out of control. If Artest and Jackson go into the stands at most arenas, it's over within 30 seconds. In this situation, it was allowed to become a free-for-all. The rest of the Pacers and coaches (the ones who weren't in the fight) could have gotten seriously hurt.

[CubColtPacer]

The Pacers tempted fate by collecting a group of them.

 

That's undeniably true. The incident doesn't occur if the Pacers didn't have insane players on their team. The Pacers deserved their punishment (honestly, I always thought Jackson should have been suspended for the year, too, but I have a very low opinion of him in general.) But the escalation should never occur -- security exists to prevent that. Similarly, law enforcement exists to prevent crimes; and, if the first crime can't be prevented, catch the criminal before the second crime can be committed.

 

I always thought Jackson should have gotten at least the same punishment and maybe even more than Artest. Artest was at least provoked and didn't go in throwing punches (I'm not sure if Artest even threw one). Jackson charged into the stands and almost immediately threw a punch. I understand somewhat his defense of Artest, but it certainly seemed like he was looking for a fight. Of course, that's partly because he managed to get himself in the fight on the floor to begin with even though he wasn't involved in that either.

[UMFan83]

They failed because you had a team full of nut cases. Stern handled it the right way.

 

If a zoo has a visiting tiger exhibit and the tigers break out and eat visitors, the tigers have to be put down (or at least removed). But the culpability doesn't end there. The people responsible for securing the tigers also have to answer for their negligence. (If you don't like the animals example, make it a prison break that leads to rape and murder -- the rapists and murderers are the main culprits, but the wardens and officials that allowed the escape to occur must also answer.)

 

The Pacers' nut cases were the main culprits. But the reason stadiums and professional teams have security is to prevent these situations (or at least prevent the full-scale snow-balling escalation that occured). The Pistons failed here. They're culpable for that failure.

 

I dont know if you can blame the Pistons for not anticipating that 2 players would jump into the stands and start punching everyone in their way. Causing a frenzy. It's not just not a very likely scenario to occur. They provide enough security as they are legally required to, and they can probably train their security for what to do if players go into the stands, but it just doesn't come up often.

 

It's like spending money for a bear patrol where there is rarely ever bears that come into the neighborhood. You can have regular policemen handle any bear related situations that come up but do you need to raise taxes to have a specialized bear patrol?

 

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/pfelon/bearpatrol.jpg

[Exile on Waveland]

Passing to Steve Kerr, 45% 3 point shooter: No brainer, he's a great shooter

 

Passing to Boobie Gibson, 42% 3 point shooter: What are you doing? He's just a guy.

 

Those two players are not equivalent as shooters, let's be real. As a Bull, Kerr shot .491, .524 (!), .515 (!), .464, and .438 percent from 3-point range (on at least 124 attempts each season).

 

I love Steve Kerr but I have to point out 2 things:

 

1) That first year as a Bull he shot .419, not .491

2) the 2nd-4th years as a Bull (.524, .515, .464) the 3 point line was moved in, and multiple players shot over 50% from 3. His career percentage during those 3 years was exactly .500%. Outside of those 3 years, his career percentage was .424

 

1) That was a typo; thanks for catching it.

2) Kerr did lead the NBA in 1994-95 with the .524 percent; but your point stands. I had forgotten that.

 

Regardless, Kerr is one of the best pure shooters of all time. He holds the record for NCAA single season 3-point field goal percentage at .573 (his only year playing with the 3-point shot in college). Gibson shot .398 and .380 percent from 3-point range in college.

[Exile on Waveland]

They failed because you had a team full of nut cases. Stern handled it the right way.

 

If a zoo has a visiting tiger exhibit and the tigers break out and eat visitors, the tigers have to be put down (or at least removed). But the culpability doesn't end there. The people responsible for securing the tigers also have to answer for their negligence. (If you don't like the animals example, make it a prison break that leads to rape and murder -- the rapists and murderers are the main culprits, but the wardens and officials that allowed the escape to occur must also answer.)

 

The Pacers' nut cases were the main culprits. But the reason stadiums and professional teams have security is to prevent these situations (or at least prevent the full-scale snow-balling escalation that occured). The Pistons failed here. They're culpable for that failure.

 

I dont know if you can blame the Pistons for not anticipating that 2 players would jump into the stands and start punching everyone in their way. Causing a frenzy. It's not just not a very likely scenario to occur. They provide enough security as they are legally required to, and they can probably train their security for what to do if players go into the stands, but it just doesn't come up often.

 

It's like spending money for a bear patrol where there is rarely ever bears that come into the neighborhood. You can have regular policemen handle any bear related situations that come up but do you need to raise taxes to have a specialized bear patrol?

 

I think CCP and I have been clear that the Pistons couldn't have expected or prevented Artest or Jackson from entering the stands. However, I think they could have prevented that fan from being in the arena (or at least kept an eye on him). Most importantly, I am certain that they could have, and should have, been able to secure the court area, prevent fans from going onto the court, and escorted the remaining players into the lockerrooms. Security exists as much for the stuff that happens after an incident as it does to prevent the actual incident.

[illiniguy]

They failed because you had a team full of nut cases. Stern handled it the right way.

 

If a zoo has a visiting tiger exhibit and the tigers break out and eat visitors, the tigers have to be put down (or at least removed). But the culpability doesn't end there. The people responsible for securing the tigers also have to answer for their negligence. (If you don't like the animals example, make it a prison break that leads to rape and murder -- the rapists and murderers are the main culprits, but the wardens and officials that allowed the escape to occur must also answer.)

 

The Pacers' nut cases were the main culprits. But the reason stadiums and professional teams have security is to prevent these situations (or at least prevent the full-scale snow-balling escalation that occured). The Pistons failed here. They're culpable for that failure.

 

I dont know if you can blame the Pistons for not anticipating that 2 players would jump into the stands and start punching everyone in their way. Causing a frenzy. It's not just not a very likely scenario to occur. They provide enough security as they are legally required to, and they can probably train their security for what to do if players go into the stands, but it just doesn't come up often.

 

It's like spending money for a bear patrol where there is rarely ever bears that come into the neighborhood. You can have regular policemen handle any bear related situations that come up but do you need to raise taxes to have a specialized bear patrol?

 

I think CCP and I have been clear that the Pistons couldn't have expected or prevented Artest or Jackson from entering the stands. However, I think they could have prevented that fan from being in the arena (or at least kept an eye on him). Most importantly, I am certain that they could have, and should have, been able to secure the court area, prevent fans from going onto the court, and escorted the remaining players into the lockerrooms. Security exists as much for the stuff that happens after an incident as it does to prevent the actual incident.

I think it was the perfect storm of crazy. Detroit fans and Indiana players. Not much could have been done. But, maybe that's just me.

[Exile on Waveland]

The Pacers tempted fate by collecting a group of them.

 

That's undeniably true. The incident doesn't occur if the Pacers didn't have insane players on their team. The Pacers deserved their punishment (honestly, I always thought Jackson should have been suspended for the year, too, but I have a very low opinion of him in general.) But the escalation should never occur -- security exists to prevent that. Similarly, law enforcement exists to prevent crimes; and, if the first crime can't be prevented, catch the criminal before the second crime can be committed.

 

I always thought Jackson should have gotten at least the same punishment and maybe even more than Artest. Artest was at least provoked and didn't go in throwing punches (I'm not sure if Artest even threw one). Jackson charged into the stands and almost immediately threw a punch. I understand somewhat his defense of Artest, but it certainly seemed like he was looking for a fight. Of course, that's partly because he managed to get himself in the fight on the floor to begin with even though he wasn't involved in that either.

 

Agreed. I still think Jackson's behavior was worse. Artest was provoked and did not wildly, violently attack anyone in the stands (to be clear, I'm not standing up for Artest here, just in comparison). Jackson went into the stands and started throwing punches for no other reason than he was out-of-control and was looking for a fight. Then, if memory serves, he went back on the court and popped his jersey like he had done something cool. The "protecting my teammate" argument is a deception -- if he wanted to protect his teammate, he would have grabbed Artest and tried to pull him back onto the court and out of the arena. That's not what Jackson was doing.

 

Illiniguy is correct that personnel decisions by the Pacers led to the incident. I remember being at my parent's home for whatever reason when they traded for Jackson. I was disappointed and a bit shocked -- I remember telling my dad that Artest was difficult enough and I wasn't sure how the Pacers could handle having Jackson too (and this is before we knew Tinsley's true character, if memory serves). The Pacers already employed a fused stick of dynamite, their trade for a lighter was deplorable.

 

But I still think the Pistons franchise failed their fans, their team, the Pacers, and the NBA that day.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Exile on Waveland

[SouthSideRyan]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

[illiniguy]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

I blame Ron Artest. He was pissed because of what Ben Wallace did, he just wasn't crazy enough to attack Wallce. Instead he found a small, white guy 150 feet away.

[Exile on Waveland]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

Again: secure the court. This should be standard operating procedure No. 1 in any incident. They didn't have to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans (I agree, they really couldn't have been prepared for that then). They just had to be prepared for something to happen and know that, if something/anything happened, they should secure the court.

 

Even at Colts games in bland, boring, Indiana there are security guards on field-level approximately ten feet apart watching the stands. No, those security guards aren't likely to prevent professional athletes the size/strength of Artest or Jackson going into the stands; but they would absolutely prevent Turtle from running onto the court.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

Again: secure the court. This should be standard operating procedure No. 1 in any incident. They didn't have to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans (I agree, they really couldn't have been prepared for that then). They just had to be prepared for something to happen and know that, if something/anything happened, they should secure the court.

 

Even at Colts games in bland, boring, Indiana there are security guards on field-level approximately ten feet apart watching the stands. No, those security guards aren't likely to prevent professional athletes the size/strength of Artest or Jackson going into the stands; but they would absolutely prevent Turtle from running onto the court.

 

Secure the court?? Make sure to protect the 40 guys on the court and let chaos reign among the 3,000 in the courtside section? You're speaking with hindsight that nobody else was going to follow Jackson into the stands to protect their teammate. That Ben Wallace wasn't going to get him some of Artest with some fan backup.

[CubColtPacer]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

 

As Exile said, leaving the fans in the arena who were known to cause problems and not securing the court were the biggest problems. Both of those should have been standard operating procedure. I didn't expect them to be ready for what to do if a player goes into the crowd, but I at least expected some to be somewhere around the area.

 

I do agree with you that the referees didn't do their job either. Two of them just sat back and let that fight unfold for way too long. If they had separated the players, they could have sent Wallace and Artest back to the locker room and defused the situation. I didn't include them (other than my initial post) just because I don't expect the NBA to come out and say that they messed up in that situation.

[Exile on Waveland]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

Again: secure the court. This should be standard operating procedure No. 1 in any incident. They didn't have to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans (I agree, they really couldn't have been prepared for that then). They just had to be prepared for something to happen and know that, if something/anything happened, they should secure the court.

 

Even at Colts games in bland, boring, Indiana there are security guards on field-level approximately ten feet apart watching the stands. No, those security guards aren't likely to prevent professional athletes the size/strength of Artest or Jackson going into the stands; but they would absolutely prevent Turtle from running onto the court.

 

Secure the court?? Make sure to protect the 40 guys on the court and let chaos reign among the 3,000 in the courtside section? You're speaking with hindsight that nobody else was going to follow Jackson into the stands to protect their teammate. That Ben Wallace wasn't going to get him some of Artest with some fan backup.

 

I know it's crazy to believe enough security should have been present to both secure the court and chase after Artest/Jackson. Securing the court should/would prevent fans from running onto the court and at least act as a disincentive for more players to rush into the stands. The presence of law enforcement/security officials surrounding the court would, at minimum, act as deterrent (I mean, even cardboard cut-outs of police cruisers cause drivers to slow down).

 

As far as hindsight goes, I have no idea why you believe security was prepared to stop other Pacers going into the stands or Wallace going into the stands. If anything, security proved that they were unable to prevent anything at all from happening. They were basically nonentities; that was the problem. They did nothing. The least they could have done was stop short fat dudes from trying to fight 6-foot-11 professional athletes.

[SouthSideRyan]

Where are these security guards supposed to be stationed during the game? You want an NFL, or at least MLB situation where there's security every 50 feet. It's not feasible at all, and it's totally unnecessary.

[mul21]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

 

I disagree with this 100%. They had the Vernon Maxwell incident as precedent. With that information in hand, every single NBA franchise should have had a contingency plan in place on what actions to take if something like that happened again. I work in the chemical industry and nearly every single one of the safeguards we have in place in case of an emergency is based on something that somebody else did wrong in some situation, and we damn sure have things in place to prevent major catastrophes from occurring at our facilities that have happened elsewhere. It's a pretty common practice in the safety/security field to have things in place to prevent previous incidents from either occurring at all again or to significantly mitigate the amount of damage caused. Somebody in the Pistons organization (and probably a bunch of others) completely dropped the ball by not having a procedure in place to deal with this.

[KingCubsFan]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

Yep. The referees should have gotten Artest out of there as soon as Ben Wallace was separated from him. No reason to let him lay down on the scorer's table for 2 minutes and let him put on some headphones. People might not have known players would run into the stands, but the referees should have been very prepared for the fact that Artest would do something crazy and to get him out of there ASAP in order to mitigate the risk.

[UMFan83]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

I blame Ron Artest. He was pissed because of what Ben Wallace did, he just wasn't crazy enough to attack Wallce. Instead he found a small, white guy 150 feet away.

 

Wait what did Ben Wallace do? Artest decided to give Ben a cheap shot during garbage time of a game, and then before anything could really happen Ben was held back and Artest retreated to the scorers table. If you read the Grantland piece that begain this discussion, the only thing Wallace did was throw his arm band in frustration towards Artest because he wasn't able to get to him. I'm not saying Wallace was an angel here, if he wasn't held back he people would have beat down Artest, but what Artest did had nothing to do with Ben Wallace...he was already seperated and laying on the scorer's table because he knew he would snap if he didnt walk away. Then one the cup from the stands hit him, he snapped and took it out on the fans.

 

The scariest thing about the incident were the multiple reports that once Artest calmed down he acted a) like he didn't really remember what had just happened and b) was rather shocked when he was told he would probably be in a ton of trouble because of what happened. There was a Pacers PBP man that he trampled over to get into the stands and broke 5 of his ribs among other things. After everything happened and Ron calmed down, he asked the guy what happened to his face (which was bloodied) and he was like "Ron, you trampled me" and Ron clearly had no idea that he did it. He later asked him the same question hours later on the plane as if he forgot again. Just scary stuff...I wouldnt want to get on his bad side.

[CubColtPacer]

I think you guys are expecting a lot of security to be prepared for players running into the stands and attacking fans. I'm sure they're ready for that now, but I doubt "What to do in case a mentally unstable player from the other team jumps the scorer's table and goes to attack a fan" was in the employee handbook.

 

I blame the referees more than security.

I blame Ron Artest. He was pissed because of what Ben Wallace did, he just wasn't crazy enough to attack Wallce. Instead he found a small, white guy 150 feet away.

 

Wait what did Ben Wallace do? Artest decided to give Ben a cheap shot during garbage time of a game, and then before anything could really happen Ben was held back and Artest retreated to the scorers table. If you read the Grantland piece that begain this discussion, the only thing Wallace did was throw his arm band in frustration towards Artest because he wasn't able to get to him. I'm not saying Wallace was an angel here, if he wasn't held back he people would have beat down Artest, but what Artest did had nothing to do with Ben Wallace...he was already seperated and laying on the scorer's table because he knew he would snap if he didnt walk away. Then one the cup from the stands hit him, he snapped and took it out on the fans.

 

The scariest thing about the incident were the multiple reports that once Artest calmed down he acted a) like he didn't really remember what had just happened and b) was rather shocked when he was told he would probably be in a ton of trouble because of what happened. There was a Pacers PBP man that he trampled over to get into the stands and broke 5 of his ribs among other things. After everything happened and Ron calmed down, he asked the guy what happened to his face (which was bloodied) and he was like "Ron, you trampled me" and Ron clearly had no idea that he did it. He later asked him the same question hours later on the plane as if he forgot again. Just scary stuff...I wouldnt want to get on his bad side.

 

After Artest fouled Wallace, Wallace turned around and gave Artest a hard shove. Artest went backwards and the ref got in front of Artest. Wallace then followed him to the scorers table. The two teams started shoving there which is when Artest got up on the scorers table. Wallace got suspended for 6 games for his role.

 

Yeah, Artest almost certainly has some sort of personality disorder. As the PBP man who he trampled said, he's normally a sweet guy. But he's had so many moments where he goes off the deep end. He's unpredictable because you never know when that other part of his personality is going to emerge. And that's really scary.

[chuckywang]

Passing to Steve Kerr, 45% 3 point shooter: No brainer, he's a great shooter

 

Passing to Boobie Gibson, 42% 3 point shooter: What are you doing? He's just a guy.

 

Those two players are not equivalent as shooters, let's be real. As a Bull, Kerr shot .491, .524 (!), .515 (!), .464, and .438 percent from 3-point range (on at least 124 attempts each season).

 

I love Steve Kerr but I have to point out 2 things:

 

1) That first year as a Bull he shot .419, not .491

2) the 2nd-4th years as a Bull (.524, .515, .464) the 3 point line was moved in, and multiple players shot over 50% from 3. His career percentage during those 3 years was exactly .500%. Outside of those 3 years, his career percentage was .424

 

The 3-point line during those 3 years was only moved in at the top of the key, so the 3 point distance was uniform all around the basket. The corner 3-point shots remained the same distance.

[SouthSideRyan]

Lovely, the Celtics are trying to trade their best player because Rivers doesn't get along with him.

 

Hope you're ok with winning 30 every year Doc.

[imb]

kevin durant is out of his mind right now. this is reaching sosa-like levels of appreciation.

[17 Seconds]

my mind was blown when i found out that westbrook was shooting 47% this season. i knew he had been better, but i figured he was still around 45%