Re: What would you deal Garza for?

[Theo]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

I don't think Theo should or will take it personally. If the shoe is on the other foot, I'm sure Theo would lowball as well.

[davell]

I actually like what the Dodgers did. Why are they inclined to want a player just because that player wants them? My guess is if they need a pitcher, they'll get one in August anyway. I can see them claiming Beckett and paying his salary, getting him for free. By the way, evidently Hoyer was on WSCR and said that this is NOT how trades are supposed to go down, inferring to Dempster waiting until 15 minutes before the deadline before opening it up to more than the Dodgers. Makes me think the return was that much more solid, because our leverage was completely lost. Luckily for us, we won't be put in this position again by anyone else.

[SouthSideRyan]

I actually like what the Dodgers did. Why are they inclined to want a player just because that player wants them? My guess is if they need a pitcher, they'll get one in August anyway. I can see them claiming Beckett and paying his salary, getting him for free. By the way, evidently Hoyer was on WSCR and said that this is NOT how trades are supposed to go down, inferring to Dempster waiting until 15 minutes before the deadline before opening it up to more than the Dodgers. Makes me think the return was that much more solid, because our leverage was completely lost. Luckily for us, we won't be put in this position again by anyone else.

 

Oh, we'll never sign anyone to a deal longer than 5 years? At least we'll have a highly rated farm system I guess.

[davell]

I actually like what the Dodgers did. Why are they inclined to want a player just because that player wants them? My guess is if they need a pitcher, they'll get one in August anyway. I can see them claiming Beckett and paying his salary, getting him for free. By the way, evidently Hoyer was on WSCR and said that this is NOT how trades are supposed to go down, inferring to Dempster waiting until 15 minutes before the deadline before opening it up to more than the Dodgers. Makes me think the return was that much more solid, because our leverage was completely lost. Luckily for us, we won't be put in this position again by anyone else.

 

Oh, we'll never sign anyone to a deal longer than 5 years? At least we'll have a highly rated farm system I guess.

Nah, just meant it's hard to see anyone else being as much of a douche about things as Dempster was.

[UMFan83]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

I don't think Theo/Jed should take it personally. The Dodgers simply gambled that Dempster only wanted to go to LA and wouldn't open up his list of teams. If they had desperately needed a SP, they might have relented and offered something better, but obviously they were happy to take the gamble that they could get Dempster for a bag of balls.

 

If the Dodgers truely believed they had to have a SP, they would have had something worked out or in the works as a backup option.

[SouthSideRyan]

I actually like what the Dodgers did. Why are they inclined to want a player just because that player wants them? My guess is if they need a pitcher, they'll get one in August anyway. I can see them claiming Beckett and paying his salary, getting him for free. By the way, evidently Hoyer was on WSCR and said that this is NOT how trades are supposed to go down, inferring to Dempster waiting until 15 minutes before the deadline before opening it up to more than the Dodgers. Makes me think the return was that much more solid, because our leverage was completely lost. Luckily for us, we won't be put in this position again by anyone else.

 

Oh, we'll never sign anyone to a deal longer than 5 years? At least we'll have a highly rated farm system I guess.

Nah, just meant it's hard to see anyone else being as much of a douche about things as Dempster was.

 

I don't know if this type of thing is as uncommon as you think. This just happened to leak. Just last year we had guys blocking trades left and right.

[davell]

You could be right. But Aramis just flat out said he didn't want to be dealt. I respect that. DLee turned down a trade, but I think he changed his mind and decided in August to go to a contender. Plus, who knows how thorough Hendry was in that type of situation. Lee may actually HAVE been blindsided. I have my doubts as I can't imagine another player holding a team up until 15 minutes before the deadline, before consenting to allow more than one team to get him.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Take what personally? That they didn't want to give up their top pitching prospects for 11 starts of Ryan Dempster?

[dew1679666265]

If the Cubs could reach an agreement with Garza, I think they would very much contemplate keeping him, but for all the talk about Garza's ability and restocking the farm, at the end of the day, if Garza doesn't show a willingness to sign for what Theo and Jed think is appropriate, then I think they will move him in the off-season to avoid wasting a potential resource, even if that means getting a less than awesome package.

 

This seems like a really bad idea - it sounds like trading him just for the sake of trading him. I hope Theo and Jed don't do that, but I also didn't think they'd tank 1+ seasons and they've done that so we'll see I guess.

[dew1679666265]

Dew, a few trades I'd be OK with for Garza over the offseason: Hutchison and Syndergaard, Doubront and Barnes(iffy), Odorizzi and Ventura(my favorite), Delgado and Gilmartin(doubt Atlanta's looking), Corcino and Cingrani, Perwz and Buckel, Corbin and Bradley(another favorite).

 

I'll admit I don't know enough about individual prospects to comment with any real knowledge on specific packages. From the guys I have some idea about, though, I'm not real excited by Bradley and I like Syndergaard but he's a little far away to be a headliner for Garza. The Royals, Braves, and Rangers packages might intrigue me, but I'd want more than just those two players in each.

[Guest]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

I don't think Theo/Jed should take it personally. The Dodgers simply gambled that Dempster only wanted to go to LA and wouldn't open up his list of teams. If they had desperately needed a SP, they might have relented and offered something better, but obviously they were happy to take the gamble that they could get Dempster for a bag of balls.

 

If the Dodgers truely believed they had to have a SP, they would have had something worked out or in the works as a backup option.

 

Where did I say Theo or Jed should take it personally? Nor did I say that they should not do business with them. I just said that I wouldn't waste time listening to them unless they come in with a serious offer to start negotiations.

[Tracer Bullet]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

The dodgers using their leverage will have no impact on how Theo deals with them going forward. Nor should it.

[UMFan83]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

I don't think Theo/Jed should take it personally. The Dodgers simply gambled that Dempster only wanted to go to LA and wouldn't open up his list of teams. If they had desperately needed a SP, they might have relented and offered something better, but obviously they were happy to take the gamble that they could get Dempster for a bag of balls.

 

If the Dodgers truely believed they had to have a SP, they would have had something worked out or in the works as a backup option.

 

Where did I say Theo or Jed should take it personally? Nor did I say that they should not do business with them. I just said that I wouldn't waste time listening to them unless they come in with a serious offer to start negotiations.

 

Sorry I must have misread what you were trying to say. I thought you were implying Theo and Jed should be angry at the Dodgers for offering nothing for Demp. My point stands though, every trade discussion is different. The Dodgers apparently didn't want/need a SP enough to cave and offer something good for Demp. They thought they could use the leverage they thought they had and steal him from the Cubs. I wouldnt ignore them if they started out with a lowball offer again. Now if it became a repeated pattern then yeah, [expletive] off.

[neely crenshaw]

The word was that the dodgers did not feel they "had to have" a starter so they simply were not going to drop the kind of prospects we wanted to get one. I think they would have taken Dempster if they got him for "their" deal and were hoping we couldn't get anything else because of Dempster's stand.

[toonsterwu]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

Eh, I doubt Theo is going to hold it against the Dodgers and not do business with them. He understood why they were lowballing. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Theo would've been lowballing another team if he were put in that situation. I don't think any GM would be foolish enough to hold a grudge like that, but I could be wrong. The Dodgers have payroll space, and even after their moves, they still have some pitching depth in that system.

[Guest]

why should the cubs be mad at the dodgers? if they were really offering gould/withrow or whatever, then that's a fair offer. it sounds to me like the dodgers just never really wanted dempster that badly. i don't blame them for not giving up wesbter.

[toonsterwu]

If the Cubs could reach an agreement with Garza, I think they would very much contemplate keeping him, but for all the talk about Garza's ability and restocking the farm, at the end of the day, if Garza doesn't show a willingness to sign for what Theo and Jed think is appropriate, then I think they will move him in the off-season to avoid wasting a potential resource, even if that means getting a less than awesome package.

 

This seems like a really bad idea - it sounds like trading him just for the sake of trading him. I hope Theo and Jed don't do that, but I also didn't think they'd tank 1+ seasons and they've done that so we'll see I guess.

 

Wait ... are you saying that if Garza shows no willingness to sign and definitely wants to test FA, then they should just keep him for a year, let him walk in FA, and take picks? I'd call that a bad idea in all honesty. You would further delay whatever rebuilding plan is sketched out, rather than getting some assets for the higher levels.

[toonsterwu]

Dew, a few trades I'd be OK with for Garza over the offseason: Hutchison and Syndergaard, Doubront and Barnes(iffy), Odorizzi and Ventura(my favorite), Delgado and Gilmartin(doubt Atlanta's looking), Corcino and Cingrani, Perwz and Buckel, Corbin and Bradley(another favorite).

 

I'll admit I don't know enough about individual prospects to comment with any real knowledge on specific packages. From the guys I have some idea about, though, I'm not real excited by Bradley and I like Syndergaard but he's a little far away to be a headliner for Garza. The Royals, Braves, and Rangers packages might intrigue me, but I'd want more than just those two players in each.

 

I think davell acknowledged that the Diamondbacks package (Corbin/Bradley) is probably wishful thinking, but the upside of Bradley, a guy with legitimate TOR stuff, plus a ready arm with mid-rotation ability in Corbin would be a knockout trade. Doesn't mean these guys WILL pan out, but I think that would be an extremely good scenario, but I doubt that will happen.

[toonsterwu]

How much time will Theo even spend on the phone with the Dodgers at this point? They were clearly lowballing him with Dempster and probably wasted a significant amount of Theo's time in doing so.

 

At this point, they would have to come in with an extremely competitive offer to start before I'd even consider listening to anything they have to say. Even seemed like LA thought the other rumors were just a bluff and that they were standing firm on a weak offer, and Theo stood firm and traded Dempster somewhere else.

 

I don't think Theo/Jed should take it personally. The Dodgers simply gambled that Dempster only wanted to go to LA and wouldn't open up his list of teams. If they had desperately needed a SP, they might have relented and offered something better, but obviously they were happy to take the gamble that they could get Dempster for a bag of balls.

 

If the Dodgers truely believed they had to have a SP, they would have had something worked out or in the works as a backup option.

 

Where did I say Theo or Jed should take it personally? Nor did I say that they should not do business with them. I just said that I wouldn't waste time listening to them unless they come in with a serious offer to start negotiations.

 

Eh, I think any GM should be responsible and "waste time listening" on negotiations with any team out there. You need to build up trade markets.

 

To be really fair ... the idea that the Dodgers lowballed is also debatable. The only thing we know, unless I missed something, is that they took Lee/Webster/Reed off the board. Look, after the Delgado thing, everything got out of whack on expectations for Dempster, but the reality is, going into the process, I wouldn't have thought that we could get a Delgado or a Lee type package. Heck, I believe I was initially hoping for a Gould type package, and we got no indications that Gould was off limits.

 

When you factor in how teams are ... over-protective of young pitching prospects these days ... it's a debatable notion on whether or not we shot high and missed, or if the Dodgers low-balled and get stoned. Put it this way - they parted with a Martin/Lindblom package for Victorino. Had they offered that for Dempster, I think the value would be akin to what we ended up getting with Villanueva and, crap, name is slipping me on the other guy right now.

[davell]

All I know is I find myself hoping we revisit Delgado in the offseason with Atlanta. Maybe if one of Brett or Vitters comes up and does well, they could lead a package for him.

[Guest]

All I know is I find myself hoping we revisit Delgado in the offseason with Atlanta. Maybe if one of Brett or Vitters comes up and does well, they could lead a package for him.

 

i'd be ok with delgado as the best piece in a garza trade at this point, if there were at least 2 other significant parts.

[El Duderino]

All I know is I find myself hoping we revisit Delgado in the offseason with Atlanta. Maybe if one of Brett or Vitters comes up and does well, they could lead a package for him.

 

i'd be ok with delgado as the best piece in a garza trade at this point, if there were at least 2 other significant parts.

 

Absolutely.

[davell]

I doubt Atlanta's going to be looking for a SP in the offseason though. They've got Hudson, Maholm, Hanson, Minor, Beach due back at some point, and Delgado, Teheran, and Gilmartin in the wings. With Chipper retiring, they MAY need a 3B, if they don't move Prado there. If they DO move him there, they'll need a LF and Bourn is a FA, so they may need a CF as well.

[Guest]

yea, you win.

[dew1679666265]

Wait ... are you saying that if Garza shows no willingness to sign and definitely wants to test FA, then they should just keep him for a year, let him walk in FA, and take picks? I'd call that a bad idea in all honesty. You would further delay whatever rebuilding plan is sketched out, rather than getting some assets for the higher levels.

 

I'm saying that I would expect the Garza camp to be posturing right now, just as I would expect the Theo regime to be trying to get Garza to sign an extremely team friendly deal. If Garza is saying that he wants to test FA, there's a very good chance it's a negotiating ploy. A large number of experts, if I recall correctly, were saying that Hamels was a likely candidate to test FA this coming offseason and the Phillies ended up signing him to a (relatively) reasonable contract.

 

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't shop Garza. I'm saying don't take a lesser deal just to trade him because you're afraid you might not be able to re-sign him during the season. We've got more than a full calendar year to negotiate with him, if Garza's agent isn't throwing around the idea of testing free agency right now then Garza needs to fire him.